R + L = J v 63

[Ygrain]

:cool4:

Not pointed out enough it seems. I don't recall ever seeing this brought up at the appropriate times...

I don't recall it, either, though I do recall reading that particular SSM - so, either a memory lapse, or I failed to connect the dots when reading it. Dunno which one is worse :-(

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I suspect some girls were given dragon eggs too. The example of Elaena comes to mind. According to this ssm, Elaena's most cherished possession was a dragon's egg whose stony shell showed the same colors as her hair (a platinum white with a bright golden streak down the middle). The resemblance to Viserion's egg is striking btw, and Brown Ben Plumm's (with his drop of dragon princess' blood) affinity to Viserion suggests that the two eggs are indeed one and the same.

You are absolutely right, I had forgotten that. That actually supports a theory that I've been hatching (see what I did there? ;))

Now that I'm rested and have the book in front of me I can elaborate a bit. Here is the passage from TMK when Egg mentions his egg:

"Yours? Your dragon's egg?" Dunk frowned down at the boy, wondering if this was some jape. "Where did it come from?"

"From a dragon, ser. They put it in my cradle."

"Do you want a clout in the ear? There are no dragons."

"No, but there are eggs. The last dragon left a clutch of five, and they have more on Dragonstone, old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly."

Note the reference to his brothers having eggs, but no mention of Rhae and Daella. Since females were banned from Targ succession after the Dance, I surmise they may have stopped giving them eggs at that time. If that's so, Dany would be the first Targ female in almost two hundred years to possess an egg. That she had three and they all hatched is highly indicative that the feminine element is required (I think this has come up before) In that case we could also eliminate Rhaenys as an egg bearer and surmise that Dany's three eggs may have come from Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon. The names even match up quite neatly (though admittedly that seems to have been Dany's intent)

If Jon has an egg, I predict it will be "white and green, all swirly" :)

Eta- To be fair, given the quote above, we can't rule out the eggs having come from Dragonstone when Dany and Viserys fled. I like the symmetry of them having belonged to the males in her immediate family though, and the idea of Varys smuggling them out of KL under Robert's nose. :cool4:

[Maxpey]

You are absolutely right, I had forgotten that. That actually supports a theory that I've been hatching (see what I did there? ;))

Now that I'm rested and have the book in front of me I can elaborate a bit. Here is the passage from TMK when Egg mentions his egg:

Note the reference to his brothers having eggs, but no mention of Rhae and Daella. Since females were banned from Targ succession after the Dance, I surmise they may have stopped giving them eggs at that time. If that's so, Dany would be the first Targ female in almost two hundred years to possess an egg. That she had three and they all hatched is highly indicative that the feminine element is required (I think this has come up before) In that case we could also eliminate Rhaenys as an egg bearer and surmise that Dany's three eggs may have come from Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon. The names even match up quite neatly (though admittedly that seems to have been Dany's intent)

If Jon has an egg, I predict it will be "white and green, all swirly" :)

Eta- To be fair, given the quote above, we can't rule out the eggs having come from Dragonstone when Dany and Viserys fled. I like the symmetry of them having belonged to the males in her immediate family though, and the idea of Varys smuggling them out of KL under Robert's nose. :cool4:

Given how rare they supposedly are, I think it's safe to assume that Illyrio came into possession of all three dragon eggs at once (what are the odds that he was able to procure 3 dragon eggs from 3 different sources?).

Now the question becomes who could have been sitting on 3 dragon eggs (see what I did there? :drool: ) and then decided to sell/give them to Illyrio, the one person who happened to be sheltering Viserys and Dany, the only known surviving Targaryen heirs? I think Varys is the logical answer. But how did Varys come into possession of 3 dragon eggs?

Maybe Aerys had a stash of dragon eggs alongside his wildfire that Varys' discovered/knew about?

Here's another question: If Varys was Illyrio's dealer, why didn't he save a dragon egg for (f)Aegon? Wouldn't possession of a dragon egg help to establish (f)Aegon's bona fides?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Given how rare they supposedly are, I think it's safe to assume that Illyrio came into possession of all three dragon eggs at once (what are the odds that he was able to procure 3 dragon eggs from 3 different sources?).

Now the question becomes who could have been sitting on 3 dragon eggs (see what I did there? :drool: ) and then decided to sell/give them to Illyrio, the one person who happened to be sheltering Viserys and Dany, the only known surviving Targaryen heirs? I think Varys is the logical answer. But how did Varys come into possession of 3 dragon eggs?

Maybe Aerys had a stash of dragon eggs alongside his wildfire that Varys' discovered/knew about?

Here's another question: If Varys was Illyrio's dealer, why didn't he save a dragon egg for (f)Aegon? Wouldn't possession of a dragon egg help to establish (f)Aegon's bona fides?

Alia's theory is that Varys took the eggs that were in the Red Keep during the Sack. Assuming that at least all Targ males received one in their cradle, that makes one each for Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon. Due to the names of Dany's dragons I'd go with the last three being the ones she received. So there is room for theorizing that Varys found a fourth egg (Aerys') in the RK and diverted it to fAegon.

Given what I'm starting to think are the properties of these eggs, I'm not sure I'd want to the one in possession of that one :wacko:

[Alia of the knife]

Alia of the Long Knife (I know but Ive always read it like that for some reason :P):

Lol thank you for sparing me the torture :P

That's true about the dragon eggs. I never stopped to think just how big Summerhall wouldve been. Probably lots of almost impossible to move pieces of stone too.

Jon and Mance are the only two candidates I can think of for opening Lyanna's tomb. Ive yet to convince myself Jon will go to Winterfell. If he does it might not be until ADOS.

If you are referring to my avatar, nothing wrong with mixing a little Herbert with AC/DC, lol.

In terms of Summerhall, I just think of the most known comparison which might be a structure like the one in "Downton Abbey." Imagine what that would look like if it was collapsed.

And, I could envision an ending much like it began, but instead of Robert going to pay his respects, it would be (King) Jon instead, retrieving the gift of his father. :crying:

[Alia of the knife]

Alia's theory is that Varys took the eggs that were in the Red Keep during the Sack. Assuming that at least all Targ males received one in their cradle, that makes one each for Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon. Due to the names of Dany's dragons I'd go with the last three being the ones she received. So there is room for theorizing that Varys found a fourth egg (Aerys') in the RK and diverted it to fAegon.

Given what I'm starting to think are the properties of these eggs, I'm not sure I'd want to the one in possession of that one :wacko:

Exactly.

I just got to thinking, (have lots of time for that now with my new commute) :bang: , just how did Illryio get hold of those eggs?

And if there is a familial relationship between Illryio, Serra and Varys, which I think there is, (perhaps Serras brother), and a Blackfyre/Targ. connection, (again note Varys own name, not too dissimilar from Aerys, and the fact we don't have a last name for him), then he would have a vested interest in everyone getting an egg, including (f)Aegeon whom they hoped would eventually marry Dany.

Also, speaking to the themes of balance, the parallel of the Direwolves reflecting the distinct natures of the Starks, the dragons could very well reflect the same distinct natures of their riders. And if as you are alluding, (f)Aegon ends up with Aerys egg, ......... :wacko:

As I've said, the one thing that jumped out to me regarding the possible true nature of Varys "perfect ruler," Aegon, was his callous statement regarding the infant that supposedly stood in for his death, "some pisswater boy......"

Not a high regard for the smallfolk it seems, or the whose life was sacrificed for his.

As for Jon, yes, I am leaning towards a unique dragon, a dragon even unique to the dragons of Valryia.......

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bJLzYSWNk-E/TPMny1LH24I/AAAAAAAAACc/Y9P3Tdv8itQ/s320/Ice_Dragon2.jpg

And thanks to Jon Stargaryan for the reminder of what the Dothraki said of the dragons and the goddess moon. In those combined mythologies Jon is both the son of the moon goddess, (Lyanna), and the sun god, (Rhaegar), and in him the balance.

Moon Maiden:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs34/i/2008/311/f/f/Moon_Maiden_by_pixievamp.jpg

[Alia of the knife]

Given how rare they supposedly are, I think it's safe to assume that Illyrio came into possession of all three dragon eggs at once (what are the odds that he was able to procure 3 dragon eggs from 3 different sources?).

Now the question becomes who could have been sitting on 3 dragon eggs (see what I did there? :drool: ) and then decided to sell/give them to Illyrio, the one person who happened to be sheltering Viserys and Dany, the only known surviving Targaryen heirs? I think Varys is the logical answer. But how did Varys come into possession of 3 dragon eggs?

Maybe Aerys had a stash of dragon eggs alongside his wildfire that Varys' discovered/knew about?

Here's another question: If Varys was Illyrio's dealer, why didn't he save a dragon egg for (f)Aegon? Wouldn't possession of a dragon egg help to establish (f)Aegon's bona fides?

I think he did give (f)Aegon an egg......., but as Lady Gwyn pointed out, it may not have been the best one he could have given him.

As an aside.

In NY's most choice strip club, they have decided to no longer show the Giants as they play- it apparently is putting the clientele in a sour mood, and affecting their "bottom" (see what I did there :drool: ), line.

Lets hope GRRM doesn't feel the same way, but according to his latest blog, he does. :frown5:

[Maxpey]

I think he did give (f)Aegon an egg......., but as Lady Gwyn pointed out, it may not have been the best one he could have given him.

As an aside.

In NY's most choice strip club, they have decided to no longer play the Giants as they play- it apparently is putting the clientele in a sour mood, and affecting their "bottom" (see what I did there :drool: ), line.

Lets hope GRRM doesn't feel the same way, but according to his latest blog, he does. :frown5:

I didn't see your theory about Varys finding the dragon eggs in the Red Keep. Nice one. :cheers:

Now, about (f)Aegon's egg, do you think Aegon is aware of it?

The reason I ask is that if he had one and knew about it, why not try to hatch it?

After all, IIRC he Varys and Illyrio know about Dany and how she was able to hatch her 3 dragon eggs.

Why not try to hatch his, just for purposes of insurance?

As another aside, who are the Giants? :drool:

[Alia of the knife]

I didn't see your theory about Varys finding the dragon eggs in the Red Keep. Nice one. :cheers:

Now, about (f)Aegon's egg, do you think Aegon is aware of it?

The reason I ask is that if he had one and knew about it, why not try to hatch it?

After all, IIRC he Varys and Illyrio know about Dany and how she was able to hatch her 3 dragon eggs.

Why not try to hatch his, just for purposes of insurance?

As another aside, who are the Giants? :drool:

Ha haaaaaaaaa! Who are the Giants indeed?

I'm not sure if they thought through the process of actually hatching them. I think it's possible that by that point, they became a symbol of identity, after all only the legitimate Targs. would have one, so Aegon having one serves as both an insurance policy and an "identifier."

As far as Aegon goes, he may or may not know. It may be something that is introduced later and Aegon could hatch it. If the parallels between the Stark dire wolves and the dragons are correct and Lady Gwyn. is right and that egg was Aerys, then Shaggy Dog=Aegons dragon. :stillsick:

[Ser Creighton]

I didn't see your theory about Varys finding the dragon eggs in the Red Keep. Nice one. :cheers:

Now, about (f)Aegon's egg, do you think Aegon is aware of it?

The reason I ask is that if he had one and knew about it, why not try to hatch it?

After all, IIRC he Varys and Illyrio know about Dany and how she was able to hatch her 3 dragon eggs.

Why not try to hatch his, just for purposes of insurance?

As another aside, who are the Giants? :drool:

Because nobody knows how Dany hatched the eggs outside of Dany. Plus I don't think it's a joke that Varys hates magic.

Besides what an awkward moment that would be.

"Wow! Feel the heat off that blaze"

"My go it's blistering my skin from all the way over here."

"Ok Aegon, we need you to go ahead and walk into the fire now."

[Maxpey]

Because nobody knows how Dany hatched the eggs outside of Dany. Plus I don't think it's a joke that Varys hates magic.

Besides what an awkward moment that would be.

"Wow! Feel the heat off that blaze"

"My go it's blistering my skin from all the way over here."

"Ok Aegon, we need you to go ahead and walk into the fire now."

:lol: Actually, I didn't mean why wouldn't Aegon have done what Dany did (if he had an egg, that is); rather, I meant why wouldn't Aegon have made any attempt to hatch his egg, especially after hearing that an egg can produce a dragon. Having a dragon is like having a nuclear warhead at your disposal. Why not do all you can to harness that power?

[Alia of the knife]

And heading straight into crackpot territory, since Martin does pull heavily from history, I'm wondering if the feminine factor doesn't play heavily into hatching the eggs?

In real history, we have the war between King Stephen and his cousin Empress Matilda play out, which seems to be a reference for events in "Dangerous Women."

It would be like Martin to make a "commentary" on the neglect of the feminine factor with them having been put aside for the succession through the irony that despite all the Tarargaryen males who've tried to hatch the dragons, (the real power behind the throne), that power lay with the women all along.

In nature, while it seems mammals are more familial, they are considered a patriarchy. In the reptilian world, where we might have our closest comparison of dragons, they are actually considered a matriarchy.

IF Varys is also a Blackfyre, and this is a Blackfyre operation down to the Golden Company, and IF Serra is Septa Lemore and (f)Aegons mother, then it might be she who hatches Aegons dragon.

Think of Serra as a more glamorous and "open" Margaret Beaufort looking to put her boy on the throne, claiming it through a line of royal bastards.

[Ser Creighton]

:lol: Actually, I didn't mean why wouldn't Aegon have done what Dany did (if he had an egg, that is); rather, I meant why wouldn't Aegon have made any attempt to hatch his egg, especially after hearing that an egg can produce a dragon. Having a dragon is like having a nuclear warhead at your disposal. Why not do all you can to harness that power?

Well that's the thing when you are playing with something that dangerous, you don't kick the baby. Hey I got this nuke but I don't really know how it works, maybe I will play with it and see if I can turn it on. And yeah I understand it's speculation that he has it.

We don't have much in the way of POV's for Aegon pre Tyrion, so who knows he may have already tried, and it will be a later reveal. Part of me thinks they got rid of the eggs because Varys doesn't like stuff like that. They don't need the gold and for Drogo it would seem like a grand gesture. The Dothraki seem to like prizes, and items more than they like gold. They don't really pay for anything, they take what they want, so items may hold a high value to them over just gold.

Plus if people who suspect he has Blackfyre are right, it's just as big as saying he has a Dragon egg. Honestly give me a rock and some paint and in a week I will give you a dragon egg. But we have not seen either an egg or Blackfyre, that does not mean he doesn't have them it's just we have not really had a lot of Aegon time. Besides it's Aegon, if did have a dragon egg they either took it away from him because he was playing with it to roughly or he broke it in a fit because it wouldn't hatch when he told it too.

[Ser Creighton]

And heading straight into crackpot territory, since Martin does pull heavily from history, I'm wondering if the feminine factor doesn't play heavily into hatching the eggs?

In real history, we have the war between King Stephen and his cousin Empress Matilda play out, which seems to be a reference for events in "Dangerous Women."

It would be like Martin to make a "commentary" on the neglect of the feminine factor with them having been put aside for the succession through the irony that despite all the Tarargaryen males who've tried to hatch the dragons, (the real power behind the throne), that power lay with the women all along.

In nature, while it seems mammals are more familial, they are considered a patriarchy. In the reptilian world, where we might have our closest comparison of dragons, they are actually considered a matriarchy.

IF Varys is also a Blackfyre, and this is a Blackfyre operation down to the Golden Company, and IF Serra is Septa Lemore and (f)Aegons mother, then it might be she who hatches Aegons dragon.

Think of Serra as a more glamorous and "open" Margaret Beaufort looking to put her boy on the throne, claiming it through a line of royal bastards.

I actually don't think that is crackpot at all, but rather insightful. It's a powerful thing being a woman, they do give life after all.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Regarding where fAegon's egg might be, I draw your attention to six oaken chests with iron hasps that Illyrio sent with Tyrion, Haldon and Duck. In one "There is a gift for the boy..." Candied ginger? Maybe. A dragon's egg or a fancy Valyrian sword? More likely ;)

[Bushido]

And heading straight into crackpot territory, since Martin does pull heavily from history, I'm wondering if the feminine factor doesn't play heavily into hatching the eggs?

In real history, we have the war between King Stephen and his cousin Empress Matilda play out, which seems to be a reference for events in "Dangerous Women."

It would be like Martin to make a "commentary" on the neglect of the feminine factor with them having been put aside for the succession through the irony that despite all the Tarargaryen males who've tried to hatch the dragons, (the real power behind the throne), that power lay with the women all along.

In nature, while it seems mammals are more familial, they are considered a patriarchy. In the reptilian world, where we might have our closest comparison of dragons, they are actually considered a matriarchy.

IF Varys is also a Blackfyre, and this is a Blackfyre operation down to the Golden Company, and IF Serra is Septa Lemore and (f)Aegons mother, then it might be she who hatches Aegons dragon.

Think of Serra as a more glamorous and "open" Margaret Beaufort looking to put her boy on the throne, claiming it through a line of royal bastards.

I've always imagined since the dragons change their sex, that the hatching is pretty much easy - as long as you have dragons (they'll make sure of that,hatching the eggs in their own fire, for example) and that the problem arose once the dragons were gone, and the resources on "magical" (conducted by humans) hatching became scarce/lost.

[Alia of the knife]

I actually don't think that is crackpot at all, but rather insightful. It's a powerful thing being a woman, they do give life after all.

Well, and that certainly goes along with the earth goddess analogies that all cultures believed in in one capacity or another, and "Alien." :P

But, on a serious note, I do think that there is a uniquely feminine "power" that is being left out of the Targaryen equation.

Regarding where fAegon's egg might be, I draw your attention to six oaken chests with iron hasps that Illyrio sent with Tyrion, Haldon and Duck. In one "There is a gift for the boy..." Candied ginger? Maybe. A dragon's egg or a fancy Valyrian sword? More likely ;)

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: I know why you are a goddess in disguise.

I've always imagined since the dragons change their sex, that the hatching is pretty much easy - as long as you have dragons (they'll make sure of that,hatching the eggs in their own fire, for example) and that the problem arose once the dragons were gone, and the resources on "magical" (conducted by humans) hatching became scarce/lost.

That's true :), but it doesn't mean that the females don't play the primary part. I think Martins emphasis on the "feminine factor" is deliberate as in the case of the Blackfyres who only continue through the females.

[LadyMary]

:lol: Actually, I didn't mean why wouldn't Aegon have done what Dany did (if he had an egg, that is); rather, I meant why wouldn't Aegon have made any attempt to hatch his egg, especially after hearing that an egg can produce a dragon. Having a dragon is like having a nuclear warhead at your disposal. Why not do all you can to harness that power?

Maybe because he didn't know about the eggs or wouldn't care if he did know? For Young Griff, there were more practical goods that a young King might need, and I doubt lugging around some seemingly petrified dragon eggs would matter much to him, especially if he's in disguise.

I think that Ilyrio probably believed that that eggs were unviable, so it was an extravagant but pointless wedding gift to give Daenerys. They would be meaningful to her symbolically and probably make her favorably disposed towards him, which would come in handy as she was a Khaleesi whom he might hope to curry favor with in the future, but I doubt he thought they had any actual power. I really doubt that anyone thought eggs like the ones he Dany would have any relevance other than purely symbolic. They were all wrong, of course, but who would have imagined a miraculous event such as the one that happened around Dany?

[Ser Humblepie]

Maybe because he didn't know about the eggs or wouldn't care if he did know? For Young Griff, there were more practical goods that a young King might need, and I doubt lugging around some seemingly petrified dragon eggs would matter much to him, especially if he's in disguise.

I think that Ilyrio probably believed that that eggs were unviable, so it was an extravagant but pointless wedding gift to give Daenerys. They would be meaningful to her symbolically and probably make her favorably disposed towards him, which would come in handy as she was a Khaleesi whom he might hope to curry favor with in the future, but I doubt he thought they had any actual power. I really doubt that anyone thought eggs like the ones he Dany would have any relevance other than purely symbolic. They were all wrong, of course, but who would have imagined a miraculous event such as the one that happened around Dany?

Hmmmm...I respectfully disagree. I think Ilyrio knew exactly what Dany could do with those eggs. or maybe he only hoped she could do it. But they weren't given to her out of ignorance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding where fAegon's egg might be, I draw your attention to six oaken chests with iron hasps that Illyrio sent with Tyrion, Haldon and Duck. In one "There is a gift for the boy..." Candied ginger? Maybe. A dragon's egg or a fancy Valyrian sword? More likely ;)

Could be Blackfyre (which is a popular opinion) or a dragon's egg, sure.

I'm in the camp that thinks Illyrio gave Dany the eggs so that 1. Drogo knew he got what he paid for and 2. the eggs could be sold for a lot to get ships for the Dothraki when the time came. I also think that they were Targ family stash eggs (and how delicious -- Varys and Illyrio giving a "fuck you" to the Targs by having them unwittingly sell their own family's eggs), and that if Illyrio had three to fork over to Dany to buy ships, he has at least one that's for Aegon.