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R + L = J v 63


Stubby

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That's what was I'm curious about. The magic ritual, he described, was definitely successful. And we are repeatedly told that the royal blood is the best for blood magic.

According to his story: when he was a boy and traveling with a troupe, the men showed up and asked to buy him. I doubt he was the only child/boy in the troupe. His story is a complete mystery, but I think that what he told Tyrion was the truth and I also think it has more significance to the story than it seems. I have doubts that he was just randomly picked for the ritual, especially with all the slavery around. That man could buy any boy for that reason.

I am for the Varys/Serras Blackfyre theory for many reasons: relationship with Illyrio, sudden great interest in basically foreign country (I mean if you would like to change the world begin with your homeland, where slavery and injustice is everywhere, especially when you were a part of that injustice and experienced it on your own skin), scheming to throw away the Targs and putting Aegon, (if the theory is right) your own nephew to the throne... That all make sense then.

As for who and why made him a eunuch: it could be a random fanatic R'hallist (or whatever they are called), who just figured out that Varys was of royal blood and decided to use him for sacrifice. By the way, so far we've never seen red priests to actually hearing the voice answering their questions, they've got only visions.

R+R=D is kind of strange.

My questions exactly, but, aren't there some similarities between R'hallor and the god of the FM?

I could be wrong, but I think the FM have become a cross between assassins for hire from a business perspective, but still quite the religious zealots.

Also agree on R+R :stillsick:, though by the time of this posting, that theory has been put to rest.

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Plato had Atlantis set where the Atlantic meets the Med, I am guessing the Atlantic has something to do with it, The Strait of Gibralter.

There's a whole theory of Atlantis based on some mud flats in southern Spain - near Gibraltar ("the plliars or Hercules"). National Geographic or one its competitors did a documentary on it. It was quite convincing; But, given the evidence at Thera, it seems that colonies of the Minoan civilization may have reached as far the western edges of the Mediterranean and into southern Spain. That could mean that Plato's story and earlier versions compiled the stories of numerous places that were impacted by a tsunami that was likely caused by an earthquake that was caused by the enormous volcanic eruption on Thera. So, the story of Atlantis was embellished and turned into a morality tale, but at the core was a bit of truth.

I'd be willing to bet that the myths of the people of ASOIAFverse are similar.

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Well, Jaime recollects seeing Rhaella for the last time on the day she went to Dragonstone. That happened after battle of Trident, and her face was covered to hide traces of Aerys' sexual abuse. So, I believe those bruises and scars are from the night Dany is conceived which makes that date somewhere during or post battle of Trident, excluding Rhaegar as her father completely.

Oh please, that post was a joke to try to return to the topic, I know Aerys is the father of Daenarys. The thing is that in her vision in the HotU in the daughter of death part the one she saw was Rhaegar not Aerys.

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Jon is Dany's father. It's really quite obvious. (Penny was her mother.)

Certainly plausible. Dany inherited her love for kissing from Penny and her fits of gloom from Jon. Since Jon is Azor Ahai I'm sure he could've fathered a child even before he turned one. ;) I like this theory.

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That's what was I'm curious about. The magic ritual, he described, was definitely successful. And we are repeatedly told that the royal blood is the best for blood magic.

According to his story: when he was a boy and traveling with a troupe, the men showed up and asked to buy him. I doubt he was the only child/boy in the troupe. His story is a complete mystery, but I think that what he told Tyrion was the truth and I also think it has more significance to the story than it seems. I have doubts that he was just randomly picked for the ritual, especially with all the slavery around. That man could buy any boy for that reason.

I am for the Varys/Serras Blackfyre theory for many reasons: relationship with Illyrio, sudden great interest in basically foreign country (I mean if you would like to change the world begin with your homeland, where slavery and injustice is everywhere, especially when you were a part of that injustice and experienced it on your own skin), scheming to throw away the Targs and putting Aegon, (if the theory is right) your own nephew to the throne... That all make sense then.

As for who and why made him a eunuch: it could be a random fanatic R'hallist (or whatever they are called), who just figured out that Varys was of royal blood and decided to use him for sacrifice. By the way, so far we've never seen red priests to actually hearing the voice answering their questions, they've got only visions.

R+R=D is kind of strange.

I also believe that Varys is a Blackfyre. One piece of evidence that might work in favor of the theory is the color of the flame used to burn his bits – blue.

In the Sapphire Code thread there was a link established between sapphires and secrets. In a lot of those cases the secret, or deception, has to do with identity. Which made me wonder about the color blue in general. After all, you have Jon Snow and the blue roses, as well as (f)Aegon and his blue hair. In both cases, the color blue seems to denote a hidden identity.

But it's not just that it's the color blue. It's blue showing up in an unusual or unnatural place. Blue roses and hair both qualify, and so would a blue fire, for that matter. The fact that this color of deceit is being used in conjunction with a flame could also be significant. Fire = Targaryen = Blackfyre.

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Two passages that outline a very interesting parallel between Jon and Rhaegar:

AFfC, Cersei, chapter 24:


Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange had floated behind his helm, like flames.

ADwD, Melisandre, chapter 30:


The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black ;)

Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity.

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Two passages that outline a very interesting parallel between Jon and Rhaegar:

AFfC, Cersei, chapter 24:

ADwD, Melisandre, chapter 30:

By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black ;)

Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity.

:bowdown:
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Two passages that outline a very interesting parallel between Jon and Rhaegar:

AFfC, Cersei, chapter 24:

ADwD, Melisandre, chapter 30:

By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black ;)

Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity.

The imagery is pretty striking indeed!

Note that the shadow is half-seen (i.e., we know he is half Stark, but do not know the other half of his identity), with the other side hidden behind fire - or should I say, the other half of Jon's identity is fire?

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The imagery is pretty striking indeed!

Note that the shadow is half-seen (i.e., we know he is half Stark, but do not know the other half of his identity), with the other side hidden behind fire - or should I say, the other half of Jon's identity is fire?

I like the way your mind works ;) To add fuel to the... fire lol, here is another passage from the same Mel's chapter, talking of the fake Lord of Bones:

He was cloacked in shadow too, in wisp of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took.

Using the same words to suggest an illusion, a cover, a... disguise. When it comes to disguising and people's perceptions:

"The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see.

Magic aside, isn't that the very same spell used by Ned to hide Jon in plain sight?

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I also believe that Varys is a Blackfyre. One piece of evidence that might work in favor of the theory is the color of the flame used to burn his bits – blue.

In the Sapphire Code thread there was a link established between sapphires and secrets. In a lot of those cases the secret, or deception, has to do with identity. Which made me wonder about the color blue in general. After all, you have Jon Snow and the blue roses, as well as (f)Aegon and his blue hair. In both cases, the color blue seems to denote a hidden identity.

But it's not just that it's the color blue. It's blue showing up in an unusual or unnatural place. Blue roses and hair both qualify, and so would a blue fire, for that matter. The fact that this color of deceit is being used in conjunction with a flame could also be significant. Fire = Targaryen = Blackfyre.

:bowdown:

As always, another awesome analysis.

Varys story is starting to truly intrique me, and in true Martin fashion, his, (and if Serra is his sister), origins will not only be fascinating, but tragically sad as well, a parallel between Viserys and Danys time on the streets.

Imagine coming from royal blood, (and "rightful" line at least according to Aegon the Unworthys actions), bastard or no, keeping that pride in their hearts even as they have to beg on the streets, perform in a troupe, or be sold to a pillow house.

That might be enough bitter momentum to try and get back what they think they are entitled to, as well as justifying it by claiming to truly care for the realm and putting who he/they think should be the rightful, and most effective heir on the IT.

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The imagery is pretty striking indeed!

Note that the shadow is half-seen (i.e., we know he is half Stark, but do not know the other half of his identity), with the other side hidden behind fire - or should I say, the other half of Jon's identity is fire?

Two passages that outline a very interesting parallel between Jon and Rhaegar:

AFfC, Cersei, chapter 24:

ADwD, Melisandre, chapter 30:

By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and well... wearing black ;)

Besides the interesting 'word choice', I'd like to point out the fiery imagery associated with both characters. Not to mention the intriguing metaphor closing Jon's passage, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain possibly hinting at an elusive truth beyond a flimsy surface: his undisclosed identity.

I like it.

It's always frustrating to see readers who dismiss any association that Jon has with fire. "He's only ice, there's no fire there." Yeah sure there isn't.

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I like the way your mind works ;) To add fuel to the... fire lol, here is another passage from the same Mel's chapter, talking of the fake Lord of Bones:

Using the same words to suggest an illusion, a cover, a... disguise. When it comes to disguising and people's perceptions:

Magic aside, isn't that the very same spell used by Ned to hide Jon in plain sight?

And I like this too, that the shadows and half-seen visage of Jon implies his hidden identity.

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Certainly plausible. Dany inherited her love for kissing from Penny and her fits of gloom from Jon. Since Jon is Azor Ahai I'm sure he could've fathered a child even before he turned one. ;) I like this theory.

Especially since he's also R'hllor and the God of Many Faces. And Ser Pounce.

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Another interesting parallel to history is a book I'm currently reading, "The Sworn Sword: The Conquest Series," by James Aitcheson on the Norman Conquest, told through the eyes of a Norman Knight, mentions coming across the "Narrow Sea," the sea between Britain, and Normandy, Flanders and Brittany.



I'm not sure if it was on this thread or another, but a poster had also mentioned the early Kingdoms of Britain, a heptarchy that included: "Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Sussex and Wessex. The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms eventually unified into the Kingdom of England."



As for Jon having fire as a part of his essence, I absolutely agree with that, because he could not be the balance without both elements. I've always believed that while nurtured a "wolf," by nature he is actually a dragon.


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Well, sure. There's a reason there's so much Ice Dragon mentions around Jon I think ;) Still, him having Ghost is a clear indicator for me that he is both Wolf and Dragon - almost a Winged Wolf if he chose to use Bittersteel's version of combining the family sigils - which kinda promppts me into thinking Jojen might have been wrong in thinking Bran was the Winged Wolf, or at least about there being two winged wolves in a sense.



I agree though that Jon definitely shows a number of very Targaryen traits slumbering in him in addition to the Stark nature and nurture he has cultivated for so long. In particular, Jon seems quite passionate and driven compared to his "siblings"; he actually wants to be Lord of Winterfell; the reason he declined Stannis' offer was not that he thought he wasn't up to it, but because he thought it wasn't Stannis' to give and because burning the Godswood was taboo for Jon. There's also the very empathic streak he shares with Dany, caring even for the wildlings he has been told to be his enemies his entire life; none of the other Starks have any of that to such a degree. They might empathize with single people who might be regarded as their enemies, but we never see any of them care about entire groups of people and their fates to such an extent. Lastly, of course, there are Jon's berserker moments of intense, utterly un-Stark rage that sound a lot like the Angevin temper or indeed "waking the dragon" moments. Jon might have a very cold outside demeanour, but there's a fire burning within, waiting to melt through that frozen hull and break out.

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<snip>

Absolutely agree about his berserker moments. They're like the "actual" waking-the-dragon moments that Viserys kept claiming he had but really didn't.

What I find interesting about Jon, and what sets him apart from Dany even, is that despite wanting to have Winterfell deep down, he actually doesn't actively seek to rule. He's elected as lord commander and wins the support of the wildlings by showing them kindness and respect as well as strength. The person he is now, with thousands of people willing to follow him, was not someone he really actively sought to become. He found himself burdened with leadership and made the most of it.

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Well, sure. There's a reason there's so much Ice Dragon mentions around Jon I think ;) Still, him having Ghost is a clear indicator for me that he is both Wolf and Dragon - almost a Winged Wolf if he chose to use Bittersteel's version of combining the family sigils - which kinda promppts me into thinking Jojen might have been wrong in thinking Bran was the Winged Wolf, or at least about there being two winged wolves in a sense.

I agree though that Jon definitely shows a number of very Targaryen traits slumbering in him in addition to the Stark nature and nurture he has cultivated for so long. In particular, Jon seems quite passionate and driven compared to his "siblings"; he actually wants to be Lord of Winterfell; the reason he declined Stannis' offer was not that he thought he wasn't up to it, but because he thought it wasn't Stannis' to give and because burning the Godswood was taboo for Jon. There's also the very empathic streak he shares with Dany, caring even for the wildlings he has been told to be his enemies his entire life; none of the other Starks have any of that to such a degree. They might empathize with single people who might be regarded as their enemies, but we never see any of them care about entire groups of people and their fates to such an extent. Lastly, of course, there are Jon's berserker moments of intense, utterly un-Stark rage that sound a lot like the Angevin temper or indeed "waking the dragon" moments. Jon might have a very cold outside demeanour, but there's a fire burning within, waiting to melt through that frozen hull and break out.

That's a good point on the winged wolf and that one may actually be Jon. I also agree on the similarities of characteristics between Jon and Dany.

In fact I think you see a parallel journey between the three, Jon, Dany, but Arya as well, given the oaths that she will take, and likely break.

I also think there is an ambitious streak in Jon -not that that is necessarily a bad thing, though I think some fans are uncomfortable with that notion.

But, that is why I don't rule out his taking the IT, especially with Neds teachings on duty, though I think his destiny is greater.

And spot on about the historical comparison of "waking the dragon," and the Angivin temper, which was legendary. While I think the statement is twofold on finding the truth within, I also think it's an analogy of their temperament.

“Popular gossip told of the Plantagenet's descent from the daughter of the Devil himself. It was a convenient explanation for their demonic energy, their ferocious ruthlessness, and their sometimes wicked deeds. The violent temper of the Angivins, their vicious reaction to being thwarted or crossed, was almost pathological in its intensity, so there were many who agreed with this assessment.”

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