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R + L = J v 63


Stubby

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The main reason I'm inclined to think that Bran is the winged wolf and not Jon is that, in theory, Jon should be seen in prophecy as a dragon, not a wolf. As soon as someone actually sees an ice dragon in a prophecy, my sirens are going off.

Glad I am not the only one I also was leaning toward Bran being the winged wolf.

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The main reason I'm inclined to think that Bran is the winged wolf and not Jon is that, in theory, Jon should be seen in prophecy as a dragon, not a wolf. As soon as someone actually sees an ice dragon in a prophecy, my sirens are going off.

By that token Bittersteel should have been a dragon too, but he still chose the sigil of the winged horse. That's kinda my point, Jon is both Ice Dragon and Fire Wolf or whichever way we want to combine these imageries.

More to the point, Jojen sees the Winged Wolf chained to the ground by stone chains, with the three-eyed crow trying to free him. Why not a Winged Wolf with broken wings or only the wings fixated on his body, but the entire wolf chained? And why stone chains? I don't see stone playing an important role in holding Bran down - while Jon is bound (=chained) by his oath to the Wall (=stones).

Just to make myself clear, I also think Bran is most likely the Winged Wolf, but I can't say I've fully made up my mind on that matter yet, and I can see a twist incoming on that front.

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Absolutely agree about his berserker moments. They're like the "actual" waking-the-dragon moments that Viserys kept claiming he had but really didn't.

What I find interesting about Jon, and what sets him apart from Dany even, is that despite wanting to have Winterfell deep down, he actually doesn't actively seek to rule. He's elected as lord commander and wins the support of the wildlings by showing them kindness and respect as well as strength. The person he is now, with thousands of people willing to follow him, was not someone he really actively sought to become. He found himself burdened with leadership and made the most of it.

I like it and that is actually Ned's part, Stark part. Or probably only Ned's (there is a debate that Ned was sort of unique in Stark family, I really do not think so, but who knows), he seemed to have the same attitude. The old way he taught his sons included many things: to look into eyes of those, who you are going to execute, to know you people (Bran recalls that every supper they had a spare sit at the table, because almost every time they had a guest), the whole "you should know your people and they should know you", he always showed respect to the Mountain clans etc. - what is it, if not "kindness and respect as well as strength"?

And Ned actually never sought to rule, too. Dany lacks a lot, if you compare Jon and her, but she has dragons and it seems it is all that matters for other people.

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By that token Bittersteel should have been a dragon too, but he still chose the sigil of the winged horse. That's kinda my point, Jon is both Ice Dragon and Fire Wolf or whichever way we want to combine these imageries.

More to the point, Jojen sees the Winged Wolf chained to the ground by stone chains, with the three-eyed crow trying to free him. Why not a Winged Wolf with broken wings or only the wings fixated on his body, but the entire wolf chained? And why stone chains? I don't see stone playing an important role in holding Bran down - while Jon is bound (=chained) by his oath to the Wall (=stones).

Just to make myself clear, I also think Bran is most likely the Winged Wolf, but I can't say I've fully made up my mind on that matter yet, and I can see a twist incoming on that front.

But I'm not talking about personal identification. I'm talking about how Jon would appear in a prophetic vision. Not quite the same thing.

ETA: To be clear, I can see the idea that it's Jon, but at this point, Bran's still the more compelling option.

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By that token Bittersteel should have been a dragon too, but he still chose the sigil of the winged horse. That's kinda my point, Jon is both Ice Dragon and Fire Wolf or whichever way we want to combine these imageries.

More to the point, Jojen sees the Winged Wolf chained to the ground by stone chains, with the three-eyed crow trying to free him. Why not a Winged Wolf with broken wings or only the wings fixated on his body, but the entire wolf chained? And why stone chains? I don't see stone playing an important role in holding Bran down - while Jon is bound (=chained) by his oath to the Wall (=stones).

Just to make myself clear, I also think Bran is most likely the Winged Wolf, but I can't say I've fully made up my mind on that matter yet, and I can see a twist incoming on that front.

Following your winged wolf analysis, I'm wondering if the following visions:

His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

are somewhat related...

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Following your winged wolf analysis, I'm wondering if the following visions:

are somewhat related...

If we're moving toward the slayer of lies, it might be the lie that Jon is Ned's son. People see "slayer of lies" and assume that it involves "bad" people or uncovering some sort of treachery. Maybe it doesn't, at least not all three.

Or if the winged wolf is Bran, both might refer to him as well.

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If we're moving toward the slayer of lies, it might be the lie that Jon is Ned's son. People see "slayer of lies" and assume that it involves "bad" people or uncovering some sort of treachery. Maybe it doesn't, at least not all three.

Or if the winged wolf is Bran, both might refer to him as well.

That's actually the most compelling interpretation of said vision I've encountered so far. The others usually are related to JonCon, whose lies are too much interwoven with the identity of Young Griff (i.e., the mummer's dragon) to constitute an indepentend lie so to speak.

And I agree that Bran is the more compelling version of the Winged Wolf. I just wouldn't bet my house on it just yet, that's all ;)

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That's actually the most compelling interpretation of said vision I've encountered so far. The others usually are related to JonCon, whose lies are too much interwoven with the identity of Young Griff (i.e., the mummer's dragon) to constitute an indepentend lie so to speak.

And I agree that Bran is the more compelling version of the Winged Wolf. I just wouldn't bet my house on it just yet, that's all ;)

Well the Stone Beast is in general the most vague of the three visions there and also the only one that is yet to be "solved," really, if you accept that the first two refer to Stannis and fake Aegon. Given how ominous the stone beast is — there's almost an antichrist connotation to it — it'd be kind of funny if it really did end up just being Jon.

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Following your winged wolf analysis, I'm wondering if the following visions:

are somewhat related...

I agree with this.

When we think of the imagery the "winged wolf" evokes, at first glance, it's easy to consider Bran. And that may still be the case, however, when you analyze the overview of what Brans fate is likely to be, which is to take BR place, and affect events from there, then it becomes a question., because he doesn't necessarily have to become a dragon rider to do that.

As BR told Bran, "you will not walk, but you will fly," he to some degree he already is, flying within the scope of his visions. If BR's fate becomes his own, then certainly by that fate alone, he will fly beyond the physical constraints he finds himself, which is what I think BR's point was.

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Well the Stone Beast is in general the most vague of the three visions there and also the only one that is yet to be "solved," really, if you accept that the first two refer to Stannis and fake Aegon. Given how ominous the stone beast is — there's almost an antichrist connotation to it — it'd be kind of funny if it really did end up just being Jon.

Well, considering Jon Snow may end up being Dany's greatest threat, undermining her entire MO (rightful Targ heir and all that) I think it may well be a threatening vision to her.

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What would it serve Martin to Make a Fake Prince Aegon, in disguise as a Real Prince Aegon, pretending to be a Fake Prince Aegon. that's just too much ridiculousness, and would just make the whole back story about the Real Aegon Redundant. George deals in deception, what he does not deal in is self deception.. I stand by him being a real Targaryen but I'm open to any fact driven arguments that anyone may have, especially from Apple Martini, or Fire Eater, as I value both of your opinions and insight. So someone please convince me absolutely of something because there is just so many possibility's for all scenario's... and whats with the 17 year cliff hanger Martin has left Benjen stark on?


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What would it serve Martin to Make a Fake Prince Aegon, in disguise as a Real Prince Aegon, pretending to be a Fake Prince Aegon. that's just too much ridiculousness, and would just make the whole back story about the Real Aegon Redundant. George deals in deception, what he does not deal in is self deception.. I stand by him being a real Targaryen but I'm open to any fact driven arguments that anyone may have, especially from Apple Martini, or Fire Eater, as I value both of your opinions and insight. So someone please convince me absolutely of something because there is just so many possibility's for all scenario's... and whats with the 17 year cliff hanger Martin has left Benjen stark on?

It's a fake Prince Aegon pretending to be the real one. That's it.

You can stand by any theory you want, I don't really care. But Young Griff is not Aegon and why you're writing this in a thread about Jon's parentage I have no idea.

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Well the Stone Beast is in general the most vague of the three visions there and also the only one that is yet to be "solved," really, if you accept that the first two refer to Stannis and fake Aegon. Given how ominous the stone beast is — there's almost an antichrist connotation to it — it'd be kind of funny if it really did end up just being Jon.

After all, Sam himself wondered when Jon's heart had turned to... stone ;)

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It's been a while and I don't have access to the book at the moment, but how were the wolves wings described? I want to say leathery was a part of it, but am not at all sure. Perhaps it is intentionally vague. I only ask because Bran is associated with actual birds which would rule out anything other than a wolf with feathered wings.



I like the allusion to the stone chains comparing to the wall, but I also think that if there really is a secret hidden in Lyanna's tomb that whatever that is is essentially 'chained down' by stone encasement. If the secret can prove his legitimacy then Jon really is tied down by stone chains in Winterfell because the whole political turmoil in Westeros changes if Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen.



Jojen interpreted Bran as the winged wolf he needed to free, but as our POV's aren't always right in their assumptions getting Bran to Blood Raven could also have been because BR needs Bran to get Jon where he needs to be before the Westerosi end of days.



All that said I'm not sure. I do agree an Ice Dragon is more fitting for Jon in prophecy, but the green dreams may be different than the Targ dreams and an Ice Dragon being in the story is like hanging a big flashing sign over Jon saying 'secret targ here' so perhaps it was too early for that imagery.


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What would it serve Martin to Make a Fake Prince Aegon, in disguise as a Real Prince Aegon, pretending to be a Fake Prince Aegon. that's just too much ridiculousness, and would just make the whole back story about the Real Aegon Redundant. George deals in deception, what he does not deal in is self deception.. I stand by him being a real Targaryen but I'm open to any fact driven arguments that anyone may have, especially from Apple Martini, or Fire Eater, as I value both of your opinions and insight. So someone please convince me absolutely of something because there is just so many possibility's for all scenario's... and whats with the 17 year cliff hanger Martin has left Benjen stark on?

I know I'm not the fabulous AM, or FE, but I'm going to respond anyway.

Aegon is Perkin Warbeck, and besides, where in the text does Varys refer to Aegon as Rhaegars son?

He doesn't, only that he is "Aegon."

Only Joncon does that, but all JonCon sees is silver hair and purple eyes, but does strangely enough make the distinction of Aegon being the firstborn "son" of Rhaegar.

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I've been thinking a bit about our famous, rather mystifying quote how Ned, in those fourteen years of harbouring Jon, barely ever thought of Rhaegar:


For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.


I believe that GRRM is being elusive here and that "remember" is not used here is the sense of a forgotten fact somehow kicking in. Let's take a look at all the relevant passages , scattered in between Ned's conversation with Littlefinger and reminiscences of the visit to the brothel:



“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”


Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.


These two passages, in the context of seeing Barra and learning of Robert's many bastards, are actually a veiled but hard criticism of Robert, disillusionment with the man that Robert has become. And after this, comes:


For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.


Remembering Rhaegar here doesn't mean being reminded of his existence but of what kind of person he was - remembering, as in going through the list of his character properties and comparing him with Robert's. For the first time in years, Ned is forced to acknowledge that Rhaegar was the better man. For the first time in years, he is forced to acknowledge that Lyanna was right in choosing Rhaegar over Robert.

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It's been a while and I don't have access to the book at the moment, but how were the wolves wings described? I want to say leathery was a part of it, but am not at all sure. Perhaps it is intentionally vague. I only ask because Bran is associated with actual birds which would rule out anything other than a wolf with feathered wings.

I like the allusion to the stone chains comparing to the wall, but I also think that if there really is a secret hidden in Lyanna's tomb that whatever that is is essentially 'chained down' by stone encasement. If the secret can prove his legitimacy then Jon really is tied down by stone chains in Winterfell because the whole political turmoil in Westeros changes if Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen.

Jojen interpreted Bran as the winged wolf he needed to free, but as our POV's aren't always right in their assumptions getting Bran to Blood Raven could also have been because BR needs Bran to get Jon where he needs to be before the Westerosi end of days.

All that said I'm not sure. I do agree an Ice Dragon is more fitting for Jon in prophecy, but the green dreams may be different than the Targ dreams and an Ice Dragon being in the story is like hanging a big flashing sign over Jon saying 'secret targ here' so perhaps it was too early for that imagery.

My take on this is that Brans role here is a metaphysical, mystical one. He doesn't need to actively "ride a dragon," or warg a dragon to "fly." He will control events much the same way that BR does as I see he was meant to be BR protégé and "fly," utilizing his powers in ways he never would have done with the use of his legs.

Sixskins says Jon is the most powerful warg that has ever lived but doesn't know it yet. The fusion of two magically powerful bloodlines, particularly the Targaryen element empowers the warg aspect, which I suspect is why he is so powerful- powerful enough to warg a dragon, in essence making him "the winged wolf" and becoming one with the dragon, making sorcery or it's use unnecessary to control them.

So, I think he can be both "ice dragon," and "the winged wolf,"(perhaps that last is the Authors way of invoking the legendary Chimera).

But Bran NOT being the "winged wolf" doesn't negate him from being "the slayer of lies" if like BR, his function is to help bring Jon into awareness of who he is, or perhaps, who he is not short of an actual revelation of someone like Howland.

It's already happening to some degree with his dreams/visions of the crypts, his mother, etc.

As for the allusions to chains and stone dragons, as poster Stannis Lives posited, it's possible that Shireen is the stone dragon chained within her disease of greyscale, a Berantheon with dragons blood, and currently at the Wall.

I've been thinking a bit about our famous, rather mystifying quote how Ned, in those fourteen years of harbouring Jon, barely ever thought of Rhaegar:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

I believe that GRRM is being elusive here and that "remember" is not used here is the sense of a forgotten fact somehow kicking in. Let's take a look at all the relevant passages , scattered in between Ned's conversation with Littlefinger and reminiscences of the visit to the brothel:

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

These two passages, in the context of seeing Barra and learning of Robert's many bastards, are actually a veiled but hard criticism of Robert, disillusionment with the man that Robert has become. And after this, comes:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

Remembering Rhaegar here doesn't mean being reminded of his existence but of what kind of person he was - remembering, as in going through the list of his character properties and comparing him with Robert's. For the first time in years, Ned is forced to acknowledge that Rhaegar was the better man. For the first time in years, he is forced to acknowledge that Lyanna was right in choosing Rhaegar over Robert.

:agree:

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