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R + L = J v 63


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Dear, this is going to be full ASOIAF compendium of SSMs... With many different categories, textually presented, organized, without repetition and publishing dates news, without TV-related questions (we may even done one compendium for that too)... Just data about ASOIAF, Dunk and Egg and related history, on one place, without going through the pages and pages of SSMs...

I am absolutely geeking out at the prospect. What I meant by "RLJ all in one place"... I assume if you made a spreadsheet type database it would be sortable so that if you had a particular research interest (RLJ, dragons, Sansa...) you could sort by subject and gather the relevant material all together? That would be a godsend indeed! :)

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I am absolutely geeking out at the prospect. What I meant by "RLJ all in one place"... I assume if you made a spreadsheet type database it would be sortable so that if you had a particular research interest (RLJ, dragons, Sansa...) you could sort by subject and gather the relevant material all together? That would be a godsend indeed! :)

Well, the idea is to gather all relevant material together and sort it by subject... Thanks, I hope people will appreciate that :)...

Now, before we get warned for disrupting the thread, carry on...

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Well, the idea is to gather all relevant material together and sort it by subject... Thanks, I hope people will appreciate that :)...

Now, before we get warned for disrupting the thread, carry on...

I would SO appreciate it to the point of slavish adoration. :bowdown:

I can't stand to rummage for information. If I can help, let me know.

Also, love following your threads, so please give me a shout when you've started a new project.

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That's wonderful!! Let me know if I can help in any way. The organizer in me loves spreadsheets :drool:

I work with huge databases, routinely. Typically $26M in 22k parts are stored that way. Without going into detail, I find Access the way to go with databases, and I can convert whatever we have in Excel, easily enough. Spreadsheets are fine for smaller databases, where graphics are desired. ;)

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Just saying Lady Gwyn, Mladen that I'm a data analyst by profession and work on spreadsheets all the time. If there is any way I can help, do tell me. :)

I work with huge databases, routinely. Typically $26M in 22k parts are stored that way. Without going into detail, I find Access the way to go with databases, and I can convert whatever we have in Excel, easily enough. Spreadsheets are fine for smaller databases, where graphics are desired. ;)

At the risk of making this a database thread... I also deal in data professionally. Mostly smaller groups with lots of moving parts and including plenty of graphics. However, I always feel like Access could be doing more for us if we laid aside our addiction to pictures :P

Anyways, I guess we have plenty of volunteers when it comes to organizing the arsenal :D

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Yes, I have been tempted, more than a time or two, to create a searchable database of SSMs. There is the SSM that confirms that the vision is of Elia, and thus Aegon, too.

Please do. This would be of considerable use to discussants in the forum.

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That was my perception.

Martin is not shy about protecting his intellectual property. Whereas some Authors take a "meh," attitude towards fanfiction, Martin has spoken out most passionately, referring to his characters as his children, cautioning that it is not the best way to get "your feet wet" as a first-time writer, and I don't have the quote, but I do think he made reference about being protective of his ideas.

If there was anything in the app., I'm sure he would speak up, and one word from him would utterly discredit the information there. I've heard some claim there are things that are "wrong," in the app.

If it is at odds with certain actual text then that is a problem. If it's a mistake, I imagine it's easy to fix, but I think we have to be sure he's not using the app. as a vehicle to "correct" certain misconceptions held by fans.

"Cannon" is GRRMs work and word. The app was put together independently. He 'checked it' after it was completed, but there is no way he would have had the time to go through every little detail (nor necessarily the memory for every little detail, by his own admission). Its also known to have some errors and does not, or did not, claim to be 100% accurate.

What it is is the best knowledge and inferences we have from the cannon, including SSMs, put together by very smart people who know the material well. It is not a primary source, from GRRM, it is a secondary source (and a very good one).

Thus when someone asks for textual references, real ones, to conclusively disprove something, the app is an inappropriate tool - for all that it is probably correct in whatever it says about just about anything.

If someone is just asking for general references, fine. But this was someone challenging accepted wisdom and asking for primary sources to break the challenge. The app basically is the accepted wisdom, using it to break a challenge to the accepted wisdom is circular.

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"Cannon" is GRRMs work and word.

Canon, as I understand, is Grrm's work and anything he officially approves. He officially approved the app to be part of his franchise. There are different canon gradings. Grrm's work is M canon, the ultimate. The app is D canon, official derivative. The app is still above semi canon sources, but below the text obviously. I'm wondering where the world of ice and fire book will fit in, being co-authored by Grrm.

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Canon, as I understand, is Grrm's work and anything he officially approves. He officially approved the app to be part of his franchise. There are different canon gradings. Grrm's work is M canon, the ultimate. The app is D canon, official derivative. The app is still above semi canon sources, but below the text obviously. I'm wondering where the world of ice and fire book will fit in, being co-authored by Grrm.

Ahh, you are using a different, more precise, definition of canon then. Point is that it is derivative and not a primary source. For disproving things, primary sources are appropriate, derivatives are not, official or otherwise (is the series official, or I guess that is like LotR where the moves are a separate cannon world to the books in many ways).

If, that is, we want enough intellectual rigour to hold our heads up. I'm as sure as anyone else the app is right here, and the 'challenge' was a poor one, easily shot down. But if we don't make every effort to do so in the 'right' way with maximum allowance for room 'against' the norm, then those who complain that the crowd here is a closed minded group-think will have a point.

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"Cannon" is GRRMs work and word. The app was put together independently. He 'checked it' after it was completed, but there is no way he would have had the time to go through every little detail (nor necessarily the memory for every little detail, by his own admission). Its also known to have some errors and does not, or did not, claim to be 100% accurate.

What it is is the best knowledge and inferences we have from the cannon, including SSMs, put together by very smart people who know the material well. It is not a primary source, from GRRM, it is a secondary source (and a very good one).

Thus when someone asks for textual references, real ones, to conclusively disprove something, the app is an inappropriate tool - for all that it is probably correct in whatever it says about just about anything.

If someone is just asking for general references, fine. But this was someone challenging accepted wisdom and asking for primary sources to break the challenge. The app basically is the accepted wisdom, using it to break a challenge to the accepted wisdom is circular.

Corbon, do you honestly believe that he has no control, or knowledge of his intellectual property, the man who created this complex, detailed universe?

If you don't get that the answers he sometimes gives of "not knowing," or "I'll have to check my notes," are his polite way of blowing off the fans question, or that he doesn't thoroughly check a project with his name on it, I don't know what to tell you.

And of course the app. is not 100% accurate, because the work itself is not 100% completed.

He knows what he's doing, he's not forgetting anything, and he is checking everything. If that app. was in anyway compromising his intellectual property, or more importantly the credibility of his work, he would tear into like he did the subject of fanfiction.

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Corbon, do you honestly believe that he has no control, or knowledge of his intellectual property, the man who created this complex, detailed universe?

Alia, what part of 'not 100%' equals 'no control'?

He didn't build the app, or its contents. He just gave it a general check through and the official ok. Its a derivative work, not a primary source. Its good for supporting data and the similar, its not appropriate for definitively shutting down lines of thought.

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IMHO, if there is some information in the app, it is based on something, the authors didn't pull it out of their, you know where. Corbon is right that it is not a primary source but it can be used as an indication that a primary source for that particular information does exist and can be found - and should be found to drive truth home beyond any further dispute.



On a side note:


in this post, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98281-jon-snow-azor-ahai-prophecy-what-is-salt/?p=5048957, there is an observation that I do not recall seeing before - that the blood-streaked sky at ToJ in Ned's dream actually fits the description of the comet by Blackfish as blood streaking the sky. I believe I needn't point out the implications :-)


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IMHO, if there is some information in the app, it is based on something, the authors didn't pull it out of their, you know where. Corbon is right that it is not a primary source but it can be used as an indication that a primary source for that particular information does exist and can be found - and should be found to drive truth home beyond any further dispute.

Well, here's an example that bothers me a little, but I don't know if there is something else I've missed, so daren't 'challenge it', as an example of how the app appears to work.

Now its only an example, not the reason why I don't consider the app a primary source.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the books or the SSMs (maybe there is now in the SSMs?) that actually placed Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent with Rhaegar at the time of Lyanna's abduction.

Now for me, absent of any other information, that was always a logical and reasonable inference. Rhaegar is unlikely to have travelled with no KG at all, Dayne is known as his closest companion and is almost always seen wherever Rhaegar is, not to mention ToJ being close-ish to Starfall and the possibility of covert supply/support from there, it would fit if Whent possibly assisted Rhaegar in setting up the tournament at Harrenhal and neither Dayne nor Whent's whereabouts are known in any other place between the abduction and ToJ fight. So for me, that Dayne almost certainly and Whent probably, were with Rhaegar from the beginning was an unconfirmed but highly probable 'fact' (not really a fact at all, if you get down to it, but you get what I mean).

Now the app 'confirms' this.

Is there any actual primary source for this, and did such source exist before the app? Or was this little tidbit actually pulled out of their you know where's, for all that I completely agree with it as being likely?

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I probably didn't make it clear in the original post - except the quote I posted, there is aninstance when Aemon mentions all his brother dreaming of dragons, which I concluded as a hint to possible prophetic abilities on Egg's part, as well

Ok, I see, sorry. I answered it too late anyway.

ETA: I presume they dreamt of dragons in general, because I think any Targ (and not Targs) dream of them (I mean while not sleeping), but officially, at least for now, we know that only Daeron had dreams that came true, probably his prophecies made them obsessed with dragons even more, because his dreams actually all came true.

Aerion considered himself a dragon, but was strikingly similar with Viserys in reality, cruel and sadistic. Aegon was a dragon, the way many called Rhaegar the last one, but he as a dragon was "born" during the second rebellion or it was more the rebellion attempt.

Aemon is blind now, but still sees more than many others. We are never said he has those dreams too, but we definitely know that he served his older brother Daeron till his death, and Egg was his squire before that. Daeron was a drunk and talked about his dreams all the time.

My point was that it is not necessary they all had prophetic dreams, because we are never told that anyone except Daeron had those dreams. Egg few times referred on the subject of dragons birth/reappearance "my brother saw it in his dreams" and they all know his dreams came true, thus became obsessed more with dragons.

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IMHO, if there is some information in the app, it is based on something, the authors didn't pull it out of their, you know where. Corbon is right that it is not a primary source but it can be used as an indication that a primary source for that particular information does exist and can be found - and should be found to drive truth home beyond any further dispute.

On a side note:

in this post, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98281-jon-snow-azor-ahai-prophecy-what-is-salt/?p=5048957, there is an observation that I do not recall seeing before - that the blood-streaked sky at ToJ in Ned's dream actually fits the description of the comet by Blackfish as blood streaking the sky. I believe I needn't point out the implications :-)

ACoK, Catelyn I:

“That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.’’

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ACoK, Catelyn I:

Ah. So it isn't word for word. Nonetheless, I think the blood element still being there, the comparison is valid. - Now, do we have any other reference to special celestial bodies at the end of the Rebellion? Like, with the current comet, someone mentioning that there was a similar one fourteen + years ago? :P

Well, here's an example that bothers me a little, but I don't know if there is something else I've missed, so daren't 'challenge it', as an example of how the app appears to work.

Now its only an example, not the reason why I don't consider the app a primary source.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the books or the SSMs (maybe there is now in the SSMs?) that actually placed Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent with Rhaegar at the time of Lyanna's abduction.

Now for me, absent of any other information, that was always a logical and reasonable inference. Rhaegar is unlikely to have travelled with no KG at all, Dayne is known as his closest companion and is almost always seen wherever Rhaegar is, not to mention ToJ being close-ish to Starfall and the possibility of covert supply/support from there, it would fit if Whent possibly assisted Rhaegar in setting up the tournament at Harrenhal and neither Dayne nor Whent's whereabouts are known in any other place between the abduction and ToJ fight. So for me, that Dayne almost certainly and Whent probably, were with Rhaegar from the beginning was an unconfirmed but highly probable 'fact' (not really a fact at all, if you get down to it, but you get what I mean).

Now the app 'confirms' this.

Is there any actual primary source for this, and did such source exist before the app? Or was this little tidbit actually pulled out of their you know where's, for all that I completely agree with it as being likely?

That is a valid point. However, in this particular case, I am inclined to think the information correct, as I presume that GRRM would have checked anything related to ToJ etc. Would it be worth to adress Ran with this one, whether the information is really author-checked?

Ok, I see, sorry. I answered it too late anyway.

ETA: I presume they dreamt of dragons in general, because I think any Targ (and not Targs) dream of them (I mean while not sleeping), but officially, at least for now, we know that only Daeron had dreams that came true, probably his prophecies made them obsessed with dragons even more, because his dreams actually all came true.

Aerion considered himself a dragon, but was strikingly similar with Viserys in reality, cruel and sadistic. Aegon was a dragon, the way many called Rhaegar the last one, but he as a dragon was "born" during the second rebellion or it was more the rebellion attempt.

Aemon is blind now, but still sees more than many others. We are never said he has those dreams too, but we definitely know that he served his older brother Daeron till his death, and Egg was his squire before that. Daeron was a drunk and talked about his dreams all the time.

My point was that it is not necessary they all had prophetic dreams, because we are never told that anyone except Daeron had those dreams. Egg few times referred on the subject of dragons birth/reappearance "my brother saw it in his dreams" and they all know his dreams came true, thus became obsessed more with dragons.

Given that Dunk and Egg are not finished yet, I took it as a hint that we may not have been told yet. You are right, of course, that the dreams may be mere obsession, but the option of something prophetic cannot be excluded just yet.

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That is a valid point. However, in this particular case, I am inclined to think the information correct, as I presume that GRRM would have checked anything related to ToJ etc. Would it be worth to adress Ran with this one, whether the information is really author-checked?

Everything is 'author checked', officially, and there is no reason to doubt that.

I just don't put as much faith in that as 'author-wrote'. Its so easy to miss something in a mass of other people's works, especially some fine detail or subtlety, much more so than if writing it yourself. And given GRRM's schedule and workload, I just can't see him having spent the time to go over every single little phrase with a fine-toothed comb.

Having said that, I fully expect that he'd have seen this particular one and consciously ok-ed it*. I just don't see that we can claim the same for every single subtlety of phrase or fact, nor where we can clearly draw the line. And if we can't clearly draw the line, we can't clearly use it as a definitive reference.

*in fact, for all I know he personally gave the app authors that information, in what could be considered a SSM but isn't in the SSMs.

And no, I don't think its worth checking with Ran - whats anyone going to say?

"Yes, GRRM went over everything with a fine-tooth comb and its 100% accurate"? Its already admitted errors, so that can't be true. Nor is it a reasonable expectation.

"No, he didn't check everything?" - that totally undermines it, and isn't likely to be literally true anyway - I'm sure he conscientiously read everything submitted to him and probably found and corrected a few errors. But that doesn't mean he really 'studied' every word and phrase and the whole thing is flawless.

Its an official derivative work. Its not 'M canon' and shouldn't be used to close down lines of thought that can't be closed down with 'M canon' references.

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