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R + L = J v 63


Stubby

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Everything is 'author checked', officially, and there is no reason to doubt that.

I just don't put as much faith in that as 'author-wrote'. Its so easy to miss something in a mass of other people's works, especially some fine detail or subtlety, much more so than if writing it yourself. And given GRRM's schedule and workload, I just can't see him having spent the time to go over every single little phrase with a fine-toothed comb.

Having said that, I fully expect that he'd have seen this particular one and consciously ok-ed it*. I just don't see that we can claim the same for every single subtlety of phrase or fact, nor where we can clearly draw the line. And if we can't clearly draw the line, we can't clearly use it as a definitive reference.

*in fact, for all I know he personally gave the app authors that information, in what could be considered a SSM but isn't in the SSMs.

And no, I don't think its worth checking with Ran - whats anyone going to say?

"Yes, GRRM went over everything with a fine-tooth comb and its 100% accurate"? Its already admitted errors, so that can't be true. Nor is it a reasonable expectation.

"No, he didn't check everything?" - that totally undermines it, and isn't likely to be literally true anyway - I'm sure he conscientiously read everything submitted to him and probably found and corrected a few errors. But that doesn't mean he really 'studied' every word and phrase and the whole thing is flawless.

Its an official derivative work. Its not 'M canon' and shouldn't be used to close down lines of thought that can't be closed down with 'M canon' references.

I meant that specific piece about Whent - whether they e.g. raised a direct question, checking if the logical deduction was right, and since there was no harm in it, GRRM confirmed it, or the like.

And while you are right that the app may not be enough to shut down some speculation entirely, I don't think it allows for speculation entirely ignoring it as if it was merely fan invention, as someone kindly put about the whole wiki and forums.

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Alia, what part of 'not 100%' equals 'no control'?

He didn't build the app, or its contents. He just gave it a general check through and the official ok. Its a derivative work, not a primary source. Its good for supporting data and the similar, its not appropriate for definitively shutting down lines of thought.

So, you are saying that, first of all, a savvy businessman such as Martin who has been in this business for almost thirty years who understands the importance of copyright, has no control, and doesn't understand what the implications of a lack of control of his intellectual property would have on his work?

And, my point is not that his app. was to ever be used as a primary source, but was always meant to be used as a quick, go-to reference in partnership with the text.

My point is that you are attempting to discredit the Authors management of his franchise just to discredit the app. that you personally don't like because of the implications of what is said in the app.

I would also be remiss if I didn't point out that you on a regular basis attempt to shut down freedom of thought, again, when confronted with a theory that may contradict your own.

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So, you are saying that, first of all, a savvy businessman such as Martin who has been in this business for almost thirty years who understands the importance of copyright, has no control, and doesn't understand what the implications of a lack of control of his intellectual property would have on his work?

Read what I wrote, what I pointed out to you again, then come back.

And, my point is not that his app. was to ever be used as a primary source, but was always meant to be used as a quick, go-to reference in partnership with the text.

I agree, 100%

My point is that you are attempting to discredit the Authors management of his franchise just to discredit the app. that you personally don't like because of the implications of what is said in the app.

Thats an inaccurate straw man and beneath you.

I would also be remiss if I didn't point out that you on a regular basis attempt to shut down freedom of thought, again, when confronted with a theory that may contradict your own.

No, I argue based on text, and allow as much room as the text will fit. I don't believe I shut down any freedom of thought, just point out inaccuracies, or argue different points of view.

Not that I don't make mistakes from time to time.

Thats another slur that should be beneath you.

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Read what I wrote, what I pointed out to you again, then come back.

I agree, 100%

Thats an inaccurate straw man and beneath you.

No, I argue based on text, and allow as much room as the text will fit. I don't believe I shut down any freedom of thought, just point out inaccuracies, or argue different points of view.

Not that I don't make mistakes from time to time.

Thats another slur that should be beneath you.

Corbon,

After having called a former poster a "liar," you are in no position to throw stones.

It is my observation that when you use the text, you turn it around to fit your version of events.

But, when someone else does the same thing, but it contradicts YOUR version, you attack them.

In other words, you accuse people of making the same "errors" that you yourself are guilty of.

You pretty much made the case yourself about disliking the app. based upon your personal reasons.

The issue of the KG aiding Rhaegar from the outset, (which isn't really surprising), may never actually be in the text, but reside in the app. as an FYI, but doesn't make it less credible.

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Ygrain, I have always had my eye on the line from Ned's vision of the tower. A red streaked sky, and storm of rose petals, blue as the eyse of death. I just have not found a reference that I like for smke and salt at the tower, . . . yet.


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Ygrain, I have always had my eye on the line from Ned's vision of the tower. A red streaked sky, and storm of rose petals, blue as the eyse of death. I just have not found a reference that I like for smke and salt at the tower, . . . yet.

If it turns out that Ned indeed put the tower to torch in order to pull it down, the smoke part might be covered.

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Wow, this is the most sense regarding Jon fulfilling the AAR prophecy I've heard. My only issue with this is how Ned could let Catelyn suffer thinking it's some regular bastard instead of filling her in. Granted it's good for the narrative. If there's one person who you could trust with this information, I think it would be your wife.


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Wow, this is the most sense regarding Jon fulfilling the AAR prophecy I've heard. My only issue with this is how Ned could let Catelyn suffer thinking it's some regular bastard instead of filling her in. Granted it's good for the narrative. If there's one person who you could trust with this information, I think it would be your wife.

I'm sure others will chime in regarding exactly how much he felt he could trust her with Jon's life (I'm thinking of the scene with Cersei when he wonders how Catelyn would react if it was Jon's life against one of the children of her body) but there is also the likelihood that he was protecting her. Jon's very existence would be dangerous information, the fewer people who knew about it, the less risk to his family.

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Wow, this is the most sense regarding Jon fulfilling the AAR prophecy I've heard. My only issue with this is how Ned could let Catelyn suffer thinking it's some regular bastard instead of filling her in. Granted it's good for the narrative. If there's one person who you could trust with this information, I think it would be your wife.

Ned didn't know Catelyn, so there was no way to be sure he could trust her. If he told her, her reaction would be to not want Jon in her house, due to the danger he would pose. If, by any chance, she understood Ned's reasons and agreed to keep the secret, it would look very strange to someone on the outside to see her being so accepting of her husband's bastard. Not to mention that should someone taunt her with it (as Jaime did once) she would be very tempted to tell the truth and, in a moment of anger, she might have done just that.

The best way to keep a secret is to actually keep it, and the less people know about it the better.

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If it turns out that Ned indeed put the tower to torch in order to pull it down, the smoke part might be covered.

Exactly. And I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the blood streaked sky could simply refer to the sun setting: literally a 'bleeding star' (echoing Lyanna's condition btw, both in the bleeding and in the setting).

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Hey guys, I'm new around here and this has probably been analyzed to death but I'm just starting my first reread and this passage between Ned and Rob discussing Rob's rebellion and Jaime Lannister sitting on the throne really stood out to me:



“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.


Now the bolded really stands out to me because I doubt Ned would be that upset over a 17 year old Jaime Lannister sitting on the Iron Throne. What other secret could he be hiding.... :leer:

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Exactly. And I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that the blood streaked sky could simply refer to the sun setting: literally a 'bleeding star' (echoing Lyanna's condition btw, both in the bleeding and in the setting).

OMG, I hope someone paints this!The red sunset, the white knights, the approaching Northmen dark against the background...

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Wow, this is the most sense regarding Jon fulfilling the AAR prophecy I've heard. My only issue with this is how Ned could let Catelyn suffer thinking it's some regular bastard instead of filling her in. Granted it's good for the narrative. If there's one person who you could trust with this information, I think it would be your wife.

I'm sure others will chime in regarding exactly how much he felt he could trust her with Jon's life (I'm thinking of the scene with Cersei when he wonders how Catelyn would react if it was Jon's life against one of the children of her body) but there is also the likelihood that he was protecting her. Jon's very existence would be dangerous information, the fewer people who knew about it, the less risk to his family.

AGoT, Eddard IX:

Ned was no sailor, and ordinarily would have preferred the kingsroad, but if he took ship he could stop at Dragonstone and speak with Stannis Baratheon. Pycelle had sent a raven off across the water, with a polite letter from Ned requesting Lord Stannis to return to his seat on the small council. As yet, there had been no reply, but the silence only deepened his suspicions. Lord Stannis shared the secret Jon Arryn had died for, he was certain of it. The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt. The Imp’s knife. Why would the dwarf want Bran dead? To silence him, surely. Another secret, or only a different strand of the same web?

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Hey guys, I'm new around here and this has probably been analyzed to death but I'm just starting my first reread and this passage between Ned and Rob discussing Rob's rebellion and Jaime Lannister sitting on the throne really stood out to me:

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

Now the bolded really stands out to me because I doubt Ned would be that upset over a 17 year old Jaime Lannister sitting on the Iron Throne. What other secret could he be hiding.... :leer:

Indeed :P

BTW, it is a nice part that you have quoted - how good old Ned says one thing aloud and thinks another :-)

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I must say guys, you're making a pretty decent case — at least to the point where it's worth further examination — that the Tower of Joy is where we should be looking for the smoke-and-salt markers, and not Dragonstone or the Wall.



I've suggested before that Arthur Dayne could conceivably be the bleeding star. There's also the matter of Jon's birth following closely after Aerys and Aegon's deaths — two kings to wake the dragon. If my idea of the Summerhall event is accurate, and Rhaegar was the dragon that hatched there (seen in a vision, led Aegon V to take it literally and try and fail to hatch the eggs), then that's precedent for a dragon "hatching" (or waking, what have you) to coincide with a human birth.



It frustrates me that so little is known about the Tower of Joy, but considering the above, I wonder if it's on purpose. Knowing too much about how it went down would give it away.



Here's an idea. Whitewalls (Aegon V) ended in salt. Summerhall (Rhaegar) ended in smoke. What if the Tower of Joy ended in both? That is to say, Ned had to set fire to the structure to tear it down, and then sowed the land with salt after to prevent it from ever being used again. I'm coming around to the idea that the stone beast breathing shadow fire in Dany's vision is actually Jon in his "fire" manifestation — the beast takes wing off a smoking tower. The burning Tower of Joy, where Jon was born?


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