R + L = J v 63

[Arya kiddin']

I must say guys, you're making a pretty decent case — at least to the point where it's worth further examination — that the Tower of Joy is where we should be looking for the smoke-and-salt markers, and not Dragonstone or the Wall.

I've suggested before that Arthur Dayne could conceivably be the bleeding star. There's also the matter of Jon's birth following closely after Aerys and Aegon's deaths — two kings to wake the dragon. If my idea of the Summerhall event is accurate, and Rhaegar was the dragon that hatched there (seen in a vision, led Aegon V to take it literally and try and fail to hatch the eggs), then that's precedent for a dragon "hatching" (or waking, what have you) to coincide with a human birth.

It frustrates me that so little is known about the Tower of Joy, but considering the above, I wonder if it's on purpose. Knowing too much about how it went down would give it away.

Here's an idea. Whitewalls (Aegon V) ended in salt. Summerhall (Rhaegar) ended in smoke. What if the Tower of Joy ended in both? That is to say, Ned had to set fire to the structure to tear it down, and then sowed the land with salt after to prevent it from ever being used again. I'm coming around to the idea that the stone beast breathing shadow fire in Dany's vision is actually Jon in his "fire" manifestation — the beast takes wing off a smoking tower. The burning Tower of Joy, where Jon was born?

The rest of the points do make sense, but I'm not entirely sold on how Arthur is the bleeding star. He is sword of the morning himself, it is his sword that is forged form the heart of a fallen star. Furthermore, the sword doensn't bleed, it has blood on it, but it doesn't bleed. Unless the bleed means "making (someone) bleed.

J Stargaryen got into etymology of these names, and suggested Dayne comes from the root Day. Stark similarly can come from the root Star. Bleeding Star in this regards can mean Lyanna Stark also, if you can expand on it, though I'm not entirely sure of the idea either.

[Handle]

The rest of the points do make sense, but I'm not entirely sold on how Arthur is the bleeding star. He is sword of the morning himself, it is his sword that is forged form the heart of a fallen star. Furthermore, the sword doensn't bleed, it has blood on it, but it doesn't bleed. Unless the bleed means "making (someone) bleed.

J Stargaryen got into etymology of these names, and suggested Dayne comes from the root Day. Stark similarly can come from the root Stark. Bleeding Star in this regards can mean Lyanna Stark also, if you can expand on it, though I'm not entirely sure of the idea either.

This is probably a massive stretch, but the mention of Lyanna Stark as the bleeding star got me thinking. If Lyanna represents the North and a star(Stark), then my mind goes right to the Ice Dragon constellation with it's blue "eye" that points north (I guess as a parallel to the North Star IRL). Maybe Rhaegar is a fire dragon by his sigil and Lyanna is an ice dragon by her heritage as a northerner and together they've made Jon: a dragon of ice and fire.

ETA: Then again, if Lyanna is associated with the northern constellation, Ice Dragon, it would be bleeding stars not a single bleeding star.

[J. Stargaryen]

The rest of the points do make sense, but I'm not entirely sold on how Arthur is the bleeding star. He is sword of the morning himself, it is his sword that is forged form the heart of a fallen star. Furthermore, the sword doensn't bleed, it has blood on it, but it doesn't bleed. Unless the bleed means "making (someone) bleed.

J Stargaryen got into etymology of these names, and suggested Dayne comes from the root Day. Star similarly can come from the root Stark. Bleeding Star in this regards can mean Lyanna Stark also, if you can expand on it, though I'm not entirely sure of the idea either.

That was actually Elio Garcia, Jr./Ran! I did suggest the star/Stark possibility based on his idea, but I'm not sure if it's anything. :)

[Arya kiddin']

That was actually Elio Garcia, Jr./Ran! I did suggest the star/Stark possibility based on his idea, but I'm not sure if it's anything. :)

Lol, I just noticed the typo in my post - Star and Stark are reversed there. :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

OMG, I hope someone paints this!The red sunset, the white knights, the approaching Northmen dark against the background...

Well... canon and fanon ;)

I must say guys, you're making a pretty decent case — at least to the point where it's worth further examination — that the Tower of Joy is where we should be looking for the smoke-and-salt markers, and not Dragonstone or the Wall.

I've suggested before that Arthur Dayne could conceivably be the bleeding star. There's also the matter of Jon's birth following closely after Aerys and Aegon's deaths — two kings to wake the dragon. If my idea of the Summerhall event is accurate, and Rhaegar was the dragon that hatched there (seen in a vision, led Aegon V to take it literally and try and fail to hatch the eggs), then that's precedent for a dragon "hatching" (or waking, what have you) to coincide with a human birth.

It frustrates me that so little is known about the Tower of Joy, but considering the above, I wonder if it's on purpose. Knowing too much about how it went down would give it away.

Here's an idea. Whitewalls (Aegon V) ended in salt. Summerhall (Rhaegar) ended in smoke. What if the Tower of Joy ended in both? That is to say, Ned had to set fire to the structure to tear it down, and then sowed the land with salt after to prevent it from ever being used again. I'm coming around to the idea that the stone beast breathing shadow fire in Dany's vision is actually Jon in his "fire" manifestation — the beast takes wing off a smoking tower. The burning Tower of Joy, where Jon was born?

Gods, the 'emboldened' part reignited a nagging crackpottery of mine I haven't even dared to post here... until now lol It stems from GRRM's recent reading at Capeclave and centers on Rhaenyra's precendent of a stillborn 'dragonspawn' (à la Rhaego). Crackpot alert: what if that is the form of 'true dragons' sometime before term? The way the gene - when present - express itself at an early stage. A bit like human embryos displaying - in their early development - proto-gill slits and tail. An evolutionary relic of sort. Sounds crazy but in your 'dragon hatching' image there could be much more than a simple metaphor.

As for the Tower of Joy as the smoking tower of Dany's vision and Jon as the beast breathing shadow fire, there is quite a bit of meta-textual support to it: shadow as cover/disguise, shadow as a different nuance to the fire, the mark of the beast, the dragon-direwolf hybrid, the tower in ruin etc. I'm more inclined to connect salt to tears (Ned's? Lyanna's) or even blood though. But I can't deny your Chartage-like intepretation is very intriguing.

[emmiko]

Well... canon and fanon ;)

Gods, the 'emboldened' part reignited a nagging crackpottery of mine I haven't even dared to post here... until now lol It stems from GRRM's recent reading at Capeclave and centers on Rhaenyra's precendent of a stillborn 'dragonspawn' (à la Rhaego). Crackpot alert: what if that is the form of 'true dragons' sometime before term? The way the gene - when present - express itself at an early stage. A bit like human embryos displaying - in their early development - proto-gill slits and tail. An evolutionary relic of sort. Sounds crazy but in your 'dragon hatching' image there could be much more than a simple metaphor.

As for the Tower of Joy as the smoking tower of Dany's vision and Jon as the beast breathing shadow fire, there is quite a bit of meta-textual support to it: shadow as cover/disguise, shadow as a different nuance to the fire, the mark of the beast, the dragon-direwolf hybrid, the tower in ruin etc. I'm more inclined to connect salt to tears (Ned's? Lyanna's) or even blood though. But I can't deny your Chartage-like intepretation is very intriguing.

I was thinking along the same lines.

Regarding salt and smoke ... what if salt equals the past and the smoke stands for the future? Figuratively speaking its meaning could be doom/destiny, as in a child of/with (a) doom or destiny. :ack:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Did the Rhaego/Drogo exchange take away the human parts of Dany's baby, and leave behind the partial dragon? Makes you wonder what exactly the Targaryens did with their own blood to make dragons like it. It's kinda creepy...

[Greymoon]

@Arya Kiddin'

Stark and star share four letters, that does not mean they are related etymologically speaking (they are not)...though whether GRRM has purposely chosen Stark to hint at Star and Dayne to suggest Day is another question altogether.

stark (adj.) Old English stearc "stiff, strong" (related to starian "to stare"), from Proto-Germanic *starkaz (cf. Old Norse sterkr, Old Frisian sterk, Middle Dutch starc, Old High German starah, German stark, Gothic *starks), from PIE root *ster- "stiff, rigid" (see stare.)

Meaning "utter, sheer, complete" first recorded c.1400, perhaps from influence of common phrase stark dead (late 14c.), with stark mistaken as an intensive adjective. Sense of "bare, barren" is from 1833. Stark naked (1520s) is from Middle English start naked (early 13c.), from Old English steort "tail, rump." Hence British slang starkers "naked" (1923).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=stark

or:

Stark:

Origin:
before 900; (adj.) Middle English; Old English "stearc" = stiff, firm; cognate with German "stark" = strong; akin to Old Norse "sterkr" = strong; akin to starch, stare; (adv.) Middle English sterke, derivative of the adj.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stark

star (n.) Old English steorra, from Proto-Germanic *sterron, *sternon (cf. Old Saxon sterro, Old Norse stjarna, Old Frisian stera, Dutch ster, Old High German sterro, German Stern, Gothic stairno), from PIE *ster- (cf. Sanskrit star-, Hittite shittar, Greek aster, astron, Latin stella, Breton sterenn, Welsh seren "star").

Astrological sense of "influence of planets and zodiac on human affairs" is recorded from mid-13c.; star-crossed is from "Romeo and Juliet" (1592). Stars as a ranking of quality for hotels, restaurants, etc. are attested from 1886, originally in Baedecker guides. Brass star as a police badge is recorded from 1859 (New York City).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=star

"Dayne" or "Dane" means from Denmark.

Dane (n.) "native of Denmark," from Danish Daner (replacing Old English Dene (plural)); used in Old English of Northmen generally. Perhaps ultimately from a source related to Old High German tanar "sand bank," in reference to their homeland; or from Proto-Germanic *den- "low ground," for the same reason.

Applied 1774 to a breed of large dogs. Danegeld not known by that name in Old English, or until 1086, long after the end of the Viking depredations. Supposedly originally a tax to pay for protection from the Northmen (either to outfit defensive armies or to buy peace). Danelaw (c.1050) was the Danish law in force over that large part of England under Viking rule after c.878; the application to the land itself is modern (1837).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Dane

If Dayne is related to "Day", it could just as well be related to "Dwayne" that is a variant form of Dubhan; from dubh "dark, black".

[Arya kiddin']

@Arya Kiddin'

<snip>

Of course Greymoon, but the etymology argument was given first by Ran and was expanded on by J Stargaryen. I agree with you here, but until we have more information it's better to keep all doors open. :)

[Greymoon]

Of course Greymoon, but the etymology argument was given first by Ran and was expanded on by J Stargaryen. I agree with you here, but until we have more information it's better to keep all doors open. :)

Agreed. I was just saying that the words are not related etymologically speaking...though they are "homophonic."

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Gods, the 'emboldened' part reignited a nagging crackpottery of mine I haven't even dared to post here... until now lol It stems from GRRM's recent reading at Capeclave and centers on Rhaenyra's precendent of a stillborn 'dragonspawn' (à la Rhaego). Crackpot alert: what if that is the form of 'true dragons' sometime before term? The way the gene - when present - express itself at an early stage. A bit like human embryos displaying - in their early development - proto-gill slits and tail. An evolutionary relic of sort. Sounds crazy but in your 'dragon hatching' image there could be much more than a simple metaphor.

I am on board with this. It seems like Targs having literal dragons (or dragon DNA, though I hesitate to be that scientific) inside could go a long ways towards explaining things like dragon dreams and why Targs are represented as actual dragons in them. Also, would help explain phrases like "blood of the dragon" and "waking the dragon" and shed some light on Targaryen madness and the practice of incest.

[Arya kiddin']

I am on board with this. It seems like Targs having literal dragons (or dragon DNA, though I hesitate to be that scientific) inside could go a long ways towards explaining things like dragon dreams and why Targs are represented as actual dragons in them. Also, would help explain phrases like "blood of the dragon" and "waking the dragon" and shed some light on Targaryen madness and the practice of incest.

It is feasible that the dragonlords of old might've taken in(? drunk? ) dragonblood into their bodies to understand dragons better and exercise control over them.

[Alia of the knife]

I am on board with this. It seems like Targs having literal dragons (or dragon DNA, though I hesitate to be that scientific) inside could go a long ways towards explaining things like dragon dreams and why Targs are represented as actual dragons in them. Also, would help explain phrases like "blood of the dragon" and "waking the dragon" and shed some light on Targaryen madness and the practice of incest.

I agree with this as well and wonder if Jon didn't look similarly at birth as Danys son. He wasn't deformed, but in a dragons natural state.

I think the "Cat People" mythology story is similar in the sense that only brother and sister could mate.

[Consigliere]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes: I see that many place Aegon's birth at 282AL, however I believe that there is a case to be made for him being born in 281AL. I made this post in another thread but received no feedback. Is this within the realms of possibilty?

On the App it says that Aegon was born in the year before Robert's Rebellion. I've always assumed that the rebellion started in 282AL which would place Aegon's birth year at 281AL. I think there is a case to be made for placing his birth at 281AL and I'll do my best to try and explain myself clearly. :)

Lets say the tourney at HH took place around Jan/Feb of 281AL and Aegon was conceived shortly thereafter. That would put his birth at around Nov/Dec 281AL. That means Rhaegar was present for his birth and there is some other evidence to support this:

1. Dany's HoTU vision - “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed.
2. ADwD, The Griffon Reborn - and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward

Rhaegar, now with the knowledge that Elia will not conceive again, runs off with Lyanna at the beginning of 282AL. Brandon and Rickard are killed in KL, Aerys calls for Ned and Robert's heads and the rebellion begins. The sack of KL takes place sometime during the first quarter of 283AL.

The tourney at HH, Lyanna's abduction and The Sack are still all roughly a year apart. Aegon would have been a year and a few months old and for all intents and purposes would probably still be referred to as a "one year old".

[Gala]

Could anyone provide a quote that says that Aegon was born the year before rebellion or at least to point out the direction, the chapter or at least whose chapter, please? I am trying to figure out my ideas, but sometimes I got stuck :bang:

Thank you.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes: I see that many place Aegon's birth at 282AL, however I believe that there is a case to be made for him being born in 281AL. I made this post in another thread but received no feedback. Is this within the realms of possibilty?

There are lots of ways to look at this, ages of characters and events that we know to be certain distances apart in time. Probably the easiest one is Dany's birthday. We know the novels start in 298 and that she has her fourteenth nameday after her marriage to Drogo. That means she was born in 284, and most likely not too near the beginning of it. That would place her conception no earlier than April of 283 and probably later. We can pinpoint that happy event to sometime in between the Battle of the Trident and the Sack, which means the Sack occurred after April 283 and probably later. That would place Aegon's birth in between February and June of 282. Keep in mind this is in regard to the earliest possible dates in the range. Dany could have been born later in 284-- and I actually tend to think she was.

I think the wording in the app simply refers to Aegon's birth occurring in the year prior to most of the action of the Rebellion. Some time passed between the "abduction" and the banners being called after all. It is very likely that all the battles were fought in 283.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Could anyone provide a quote that says that Aegon was born the year before rebellion or at least to point out the direction, the chapter or at least whose chapter, please? I am trying to figure out my ideas, but sometimes I got stuck :bang:

Thank you.

It's an SSM.

At the time of the Sack, Aegon Targaryen was, "Still a babe at the breast. A year old, give or take a turn or two.

[Consigliere]

<snip>

Thank you for the response Lady Gywn. :)

I'm not ruling out the possibility of Aegon being born in 282AL. We have the years of certain events like tourney of HH and Sack of KL but unfortunately we don't know exactly when during the year these events took place. I still think that there is a case to be made to place Aegon's birth at the back end of 281AL. The app states year before Robert's Rebellion and I suppose it is open to individual interpretation whether this means year prior to when the most action took place or year prior to when the rebellion actually started. My point is that it is premature for us catagorically state that Aegon was born in 282AL.

[Ghost's Shadow]

A good thing to consider is if Elia would have gone to the Tourney had she known she was pregnant, due to her complications of her first birth (bed rest for 6 months?)

[Consigliere]

A good thing to consider is if Elia would have gone to the Tourney had she known she was pregnant, due to her complications of her first birth (bed rest for 6 months?)

I'm not sure if this is in response to my post. But if so, my assumption is that the tourney of HH was held early on in 281AL (during the first quarter perhaps) and Aegon was conceived shortly thereafter. So Elia would not be pregnant during the tourney.