bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 When the villagers from the Riverlands came to ask for permission to attack the Lannisters, Ned sends Beric and Thoros of Myr after them. Ser Loras was visibly upset. Later, Varys describes Ned as brave for not sending Loras and Ilyn Payne. He tells Ned that ser Ilyn will remember that because he loves his job and Varys was right, ser Ilyn ended up being the man that beheads Ned. So there were some implications there. But what were the implications for Ned of not sending Loras? Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bronn Stokeworth Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 When the villagers from the Riverlands came to ask for permission to attack the Lannisters, Ned sends Beric and Thoros of Myr after them. Ser Loras was visibly upset. Later, Varys describes Ned as brave for not sending Loras and Ilyn Payne. He tells Ned that ser Ilyn will remember that because he loves his job and Varys was right, ser Ilyn ended up being the man that beheads Ned. So there were some implications there. But what were the implications for Ned of not sending Loras? Am I missing something? I think Varys would have been happy to see Loras die at the hands of the Mountain. It causes the Tyrells to go against the Lannisters. Renly would be pissed and become even more likely to go against the Lannisters should Robert die. Basically, I think he just wanted to mess with Ned's head in the slim chance that he would change his mind or make a different decision next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 I understand that, but what I'm asking is, what were the implications for Ned? Varys described Ned as brave for angering the Tyrell boy, implying that Ned could pay for this. It kind of seems to me though that Loras or the Tyrells didn't bear Ned any ill will. I am just wondering if I'm missing something and whether Loras really was mad at Ned and whether Ned's decision had consequences for him. I think Varys would have been happy to see Loras die at the hands of the Mountain. It causes the Tyrells to go against the Lannisters. Renly would be pissed and become even more likely to go against the Lannisters should Robert die. Basically, I think he just wanted to mess with Ned's head in the slim chance that he would change his mind or make a different decision next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bronn Stokeworth Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 That's what I was trying to say. Sorry, if I wasn't clear enough. It was nothing but Varys trying to psyche out Ned. I don't remember anything personal Loras had against Ned, albeit anything he did hold against him could have been super seceded by Renly's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Both Varys and Littlefinger agree that he should've send Loras, and I think it's mainly an issue of pride. Ned excluding Loras from the group is like calling Loras a wuss or a child, and choosing a knight of a lower house to command (Beric) was more salt in the wound. But Littlefinger being who he is, he had other motive: if Loras had been killed in the battle (which was quite likely, since we know Mummer's Ford was no picnic) Highgarden would have been pissed at the Lannisters, which equals more chaos for Littlefinger to take advantage of. Remember that back then there was no indication of Renly's plan to marry Margaery, so there was no reason to think the Tyrells would get involved in the war. By sending Loras against Gregor, Littlefinger wanted to involve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinton07 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 If ned had sent loras it could have helped created a future alliance between the tyrells and the starks and probablly would've hindered any future alliance between the lannisters and the tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 If ned had sent loras it could have helped created a future alliance between the tyrells and the starks and probablly would've hindered any future alliance between the lannisters and the tyrells. Or it could have resulted to animosity between the Starks and the Tyrells if Loras was killed. There would of course have been animosity between the Tyrells and the Lannisters as well, but Mace would probably hate Ned too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jongtu Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 If ned had sent loras it could have helped created a future alliance between the tyrells and the starks and probablly would've hindered any future alliance between the lannisters and the tyrells.What arr you smoking. You don't make an alliance by sending a younger son of a powerful houseto get ambushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Bread Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 If Loras was sent instead of Beric then Tywin would've just order the Mountain to strike unprotected areas instead of directly engaging the force sent to stop the pillaging of the Riverlands to avoid antagonizing the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 What arr you smoking. You don't make an alliance by sending a younger son of a powerful houseto get ambushed. I think what she meant was that if Loras had been killed by Gregor there would be no way that Mace Tyrell would join the Lannisters even after Renly died. Honestly though I don't buy it. Loras being murdered by Gregor would definitely kill the dream of a Tyrell-Lannister alliance, but it's more likely that they would have crossed over to join Stannis rather than going to the Lannisters. The problem with a Stark-Tyrell alliance is one of different motives combined with geography. Robb didn't want to be King on the Iron Throne, he wanted to be the ruler of the North and the Trident. If the Tyrells help him with this goal, they will basically have to either give up the Reach or try to convince Robb to take the Reach as part of his kingdom (which is implausible since even if Robb won he would have to cross over Lannister territory to get to the Reach in the first place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinton07 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 What arr you smoking. You don't make an alliance by sending a younger son of a powerful houseto get ambushed. Loras volunteered... he wanted to go... he was upset that ned didn't send him.... ned wasnt sending him into an ambush on purpose it was tywin who organized the ambush... its the lannisters they would have been mad at... it would have helped establish friendly relations between higharden and winterfell... loras is the major influence on his father as shown when he convinces him to declare for renly.... it would have been helpful for loras to like ned instead of feeling offened by being denied the command.. varys himself says this "Had it been me up there, I should have sent Ser Loras. He so wanted to go... and a man who has the lannisters for his enemies would do well to make the Tyrells his friends." im not saying it would have ensured an alliance by any means... but surely in ned's position at the time it would have been a smart political move to try to gain the Tyrells favor... so have you actually read the book or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 I think what she meant was that if Loras had been killed by Gregor there would be no way that Mace Tyrell would join the Lannisters even after Renly died. Honestly though I don't buy it. Loras being murdered by Gregor would definitely kill the dream of a Tyrell-Lannister alliance, but it's more likely that they would have crossed over to join Stannis rather than going to the Lannisters. The problem with a Stark-Tyrell alliance is one of different motives combined with geography. Robb didn't want to be King on the Iron Throne, he wanted to be the ruler of the North and the Trident. If the Tyrells help him with this goal, they will basically have to either give up the Reach or try to convince Robb to take the Reach as part of his kingdom (which is implausible since even if Robb won he would have to cross over Lannister territory to get to the Reach in the first place). No there's no way the Tyrells would side with Stannis. Stannis hasn't forgiven the Tyrells for the siege of Storm's End and many in the 7 Kingdoms believe that Stannis wants Mace's head on a spike. Mace believes it too otherwise he wouldn't ally with the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Loras volunteered... he wanted to go... he was upset that ned didn't send him.... ned wasnt sending him into an ambush on purpose it was tywin who organized the ambush... its the lannisters they would have been mad at... it would have helped establish friendly relations between higharden and winterfell... loras is the major influence on his father as shown when he convinces him to declare for renly.... it would have been helpful for loras to like ned instead of feeling offened by being denied the command.. varys himself says this "Had it been me up there, I should have sent Ser Loras. He so wanted to go... and a man who has the lannisters for his enemies would do well to make the Tyrells his friends." im not saying it would have ensured an alliance by any means... but surely in ned's position at the time it would have been a smart political move to try to gain the Tyrells favor... so have you actually read the book or I don't really agree. Ned knew the dangers of sending men after the Mountain. He wouldn't want to risk having Mace Tyrell's favorite son killed. What he should have done is invite Loras to dinner to supposedly explain to him why he didn't send him after the Mountain, and have Sansa join them. Praise him during the dinner and say something like "who knows, maybe one day our families will be united". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambi76 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Well, Ned's offical reason for not sending Loras was because Loras (as the victim) was too involved (justice not vengance!) in the case as to be its prosecuter/executioner. But maybe he really thought: "Welp, you have no chance agianst the Mountain and if you get killed, then I'll never hear the end of it from Sansa and everybody, really." We don't know. We only know that Varys and Petyr found this politically stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiden of tarth Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I think Ned didn't send him because he was too young and inexperienced. I don't think there is much to read between the lines in Neds decision. Politically, granted, it may have been a wiser decision to send Lora's but that wasn't Ned's way of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I don't really agree. Ned knew the dangers of sending men after the Mountain. He wouldn't want to risk having Mace Tyrell's favorite son killed. What he should have done is invite Loras to dinner to supposedly explain to him why he didn't send him after the Mountain, and have Sansa join them. Praise him during the dinner and say something like "who knows, maybe one day our families will be united". If Mace's favorite son is killed by Lannister men, then it will probably ruin any chance of a future Tyrell/Lannister alliance. After all, Loras volunteered in front of the entire court. Ned could hardly be blamed for honoring Loras when it was Tywin's orders that killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 If Mace's favorite son is killed by Lannister men, then it will probably ruin any chance of a future Tyrell/Lannister alliance. After all, Loras volunteered in front of the entire court. Ned could hardly be blamed for honoring Loras when it was Tywin's orders that killed him. Yes I know that. Please see my post above. But Mace would have been mad at Ned too for sending Loras on such a dangerous mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balaurderaa Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I don't understand why the inexperienced argument is used. Beric is only what 22? So he was too young to fight in RR and as far as we know he didn't fight in Balon Greyjoy's rebellion so he has as much military experience as Lora Tyrell. And Loras beat Ser Gregor in the Tourney of the hand whilst Beric despite winning many fans crashed out early IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Yes I know that. Please see my post above. But Mace would have been mad at Ned too for sending Loras on such a dangerous mission. Loras was the one who volunteered and everyone saw it. I don't know if Ned would be blamed. Hell, is Mace even mad at Cersei for the act of sending Loras to Dragonstone? Does Mace blame himself for Willas' injuries? I don't think Ned sending Loras is something that Westerosi would get angry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tywin Lannister is not a fool. He would give strict orders that Loras is to be taken captive and not killed. A captive Loras is a boon for the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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