murder he wrote. how many times can he cry wolf?

[MizasterJ]

By the near end of this book especially Sansa's chapter. Do you think all the killing and murder is getting a bit redundant?

I mean I hate to complain but how many chapters must end with a surprise murder? Is that George's best technique for conveying drama? How many times has that been the end point to a chapter or verse?

I feel like its not only getting redundant, but predictable as well. Does he feel like he has to rely on shocking death to keep reader's interest?

whats the point of killing everyone off? the suspense just becomes oh who is going to die next? or when is so and so going to kill so and so? instead of... how will the realm come together to deal with the impending doom in the north or more meaningful , significant plots.

[protar]

I think that the degree to which Martin kills of characters is overstated. Certainly he kills of a lot more than usual, but actually most characters that die are characters which you could reasonably expect to die in a conventional narrative. He just has loads and loads of characters. The truly major characters that die are as follows:

GOT:

• Viserys
  
• Robert
  
• Ned
  
• Drogo
  

From SoS which I'll spoiler:

• Robb
  
• Cat
  
• Joffrey
  
• Tywin
  

And even there, whilst all are shocking only a couple of those really subvert narrative expectations. Viserys is a villain for example, you expect him to die. Robert needed to die to plunge the realm into true chaos.

On ending chapters with murders, yeah it happens a fair amount but I think that you've got the why of it the wrong way round. I don't think it's to make a shocking end for a chapter. When an important character dies it makes sense to place it at the end of a chapter because it provides a narrative break - rather than anticlimactically continuing on the scene. To use Viserys as an example again, what would be the point in continuing the chapter after his death - showing the Dothraki unceremoniously disposing of his body and then continuing with their feast? Their nonchalance would be surreal, almost darkly comical. It would remove the scene's impact.

The end of the chapter is servicing the character death, it's not the character death servicing the end of the chapter. Does that make sense?

[MizasterJ]

No, and it seems you are just playing devil's advocate for the sake defending the series.

My point wasn't that the chapter should continue after a death but rather have more chapters without death, However continuing the chapter after death could also be done, if you move the pov character to a different location. Instead of just ending the chapter. Yea I understand its a climax, and what could be more dramatic, but when you do the same thing over and over again it gets played out.

This is legit criticism.

[Pagas]

It's his artistic choice, love it or leave it.

[protar]

No, and it seems you are just playing devil's advocate for the sake defending the series.

My point wasn't that the chapter should continue after a death but rather have more chapters without death, However continuing the chapter after death could also be done, if you move the pov character to a different location. Instead of just ending the chapter. Yea I understand its a climax, and what could be more dramatic, but when you do the same thing over and over again it gets played out.

This is legit criticism.

Well personally I think that the number of deaths in the series are exaggerated. There's more than in most books yes, but most of the main characters are in fact still alive and kicking. The majority of deaths aren't in fact very major and are characters that you could expect to die in any other series. And I'd wager that going through you'd find fewer chapters than you'd think ending in surprise deaths.

[protar]

Let's put that to the test shall we. In game of thrones there are 7 deaths taking place at the end of a chapter:

• Will
  
• Mycah's
  
• Jory
  
• Visery's
  
• Ned's guards
  
• Ned
  
• Khal Drogo
  

In Clash of Kings there are 4:

• Cressen:
  
• Lommy
  
• Chsiwyk
  
• Weese
  

And in ASOS (Which I'll spoil), there are also 7:

• Puddles
  
• The Red Wedding
  
• Joffrey
  
• Oberyn
  
• Tywin
  
• Lysa
  
• Merret Frey
  

So 18 chapters out of 222. Is that really overdone?

[Beathag]

Well, it is war.

One of the recurring criticisms is that GRM is "always killing off a Stark" or he only kills off unimportant characters.

There aren't that many Starks left to kill off.

AGoT was startling for me because of the heartless killing of Robert, the mother of one of his illegitimate children, that child and Ned's guards. I was surprised that Ned was killed. The I realized he had to be killed because he was one of those who knew one of the storylines. And he kills off many people who seem as if they might have information to the many questions readers have.

I also take into account the people who are killed in battles or starved. In Westeros, is a civil war that has touched every part of the land. The Vale seems to have escaped, but there are deaths related to the struggle there.

It seems as though there are a lot of people killed -- but I cannot say how many. So I will do a series reread (after I read Dance one more time) and count the dead.

[Lord Flashheart]

No, and it seems you are just playing devil's advocate for the sake defending the series.

My point wasn't that the chapter should continue after a death but rather have more chapters without death, However continuing the chapter after death could also be done, if you move the pov character to a different location. Instead of just ending the chapter. Yea I understand its a climax, and what could be more dramatic, but when you do the same thing over and over again it gets played out.

This is legit criticism.

Idk. I'm guessing you just got to a certain chapter in SOS and are just angry posting after a few of your fav characters deaths.

[Beathag]

Mizaster J,

This is not my first incarnation on the Forum. People here are protective of GRM - be it criticism of the writer or the series. Go to the blog "Finish the Book, George." Joe Pesci (sp?) and Ray Liotta have way too much fun "angrily awaiting" GRM's next book.

And no, I was not banned. My last avatar was operating during some stressful times in my life. Best to leave sleeping dogs lie. Pun intended.

[Beathag]

Okay.

Finished my reread of Dance, and a 1/3 of my way through Game. The book is soaked in blood. What I plan to do is name and count the number of deaths in each book, over the lat 14 years. That's about when Robert's rebellion started. I will star the deaths that occurred during the rebellion. When I first read Game, I was appalled by all the slaughter. I have to think a first time reader would be also.

By the near end of this book especially Sansa's chapter. Do you think all the killing and murder is getting a bit redundant?

I mean I hate to complain but how many chapters must end with a surprise murder? Is that George's best technique for conveying drama? How many times has that been the end point to a chapter or verse?

I feel like its not only getting redundant, but predictable as well. Does he feel like he has to rely on shocking death to keep reader's interest?

whats the point of killing everyone off? the suspense just becomes oh who is going to die next? or when is so and so going to kill so and so? instead of... how will the realm come together to deal with the impending doom in the north or more meaningful , significant plots.

I think that the degree to which Martin kills of characters is overstated. Certainly he kills of a lot more than usual, but actually most characters that die are characters which you could reasonably expect to die in a conventional narrative. He just has loads and loads of characters. The truly major characters that die are as follows:

GOT:

• Viserys
  
• Robert
  
• Ned
  
• Drogo
  

From SoS which I'll spoiler:

• Robb
  
• Cat
  
• Joffrey
  
• Tywin
  

And even there, whilst all are shocking only a couple of those really subvert narrative expectations. Viserys is a villain for example, you expect him to die. Robert needed to die to plunge the realm into true chaos.

On ending chapters with murders, yeah it happens a fair amount but I think that you've got the why of it the wrong way round. I don't think it's to make a shocking end for a chapter. When an important character dies it makes sense to place it at the end of a chapter because it provides a narrative break - rather than anticlimactically continuing on the scene. To use Viserys as an example again, what would be the point in continuing the chapter after his death - showing the Dothraki unceremoniously disposing of his body and then continuing with their feast? Their nonchalance would be surreal, almost darkly comical. It would remove the scene's impact.

The end of the chapter is servicing the character death, it's not the character death servicing the end of the chapter. Does that make sense?

Let's put that to the test shall we. In game of thrones there are 7 deaths taking place at the end of a chapter:

• Will
  
• Mycah's
  
• Jory
  
• Visery's
  
• Ned's guards
  
• Ned
  
• Khal Drogo
  

In Clash of Kings there are 4:

• Cressen:
  
• Lommy
  
• Chsiwyk
  
• Weese
  

And in ASOS (Which I'll spoil), there are also 7:

• Puddles
  
• The Red Wedding
  
• Joffrey
  
• Oberyn
  
• Tywin
  
• Lysa
  
• Merret Frey
  

So 18 chapters out of 222. Is that really overdone?

[Beathag]

I just got notice that this has been done before. It does not include the people killed in Robert's Rebellion. Please click on "before. " I won't reinvent the wheel.

This has been attempted before. Still a project if you want to open it up to all characters mentioned as dead, past and present.

[MizasterJ]

Let's put that to the test shall we. In game of thrones there are 7 deaths taking place at the end of a chapter:

• Will

Mycah's

Jory

Visery's

Ned's guards

Ned

Khal Drogo

In Clash of Kings there are 4:

• Cressen:

Lommy

Chsiwyk

Weese

And in ASOS (Which I'll spoil), there are also 7:

• Puddles

The Red Wedding

Joffrey

Oberyn

Tywin

Lysa

Merret Frey

So 18 chapters out of 222. Is that really overdone?

Its just a trend that seems a little too consistent.

[protar]

Its just a trend that seems a little too consistent.

Again - does 18 out of 222 really seem like a trend to you? It's certainly more than a lot of series, but hey this is a violent series. I don't think it should make any apologies for that.

[Ser Mikael Shivone]

No, and it seems you are just playing devil's advocate for the sake defending the series.

My point wasn't that the chapter should continue after a death but rather have more chapters without death, However continuing the chapter after death could also be done, if you move the pov character to a different location. Instead of just ending the chapter. Yea I understand its a climax, and what could be more dramatic, but when you do the same thing over and over again it gets played out.

This is legit criticism.

I get the feeling there are far more chapters ending without deaths, besides he has a full arsenal of them.

[Ser Mikael Shivone]

Dont forget Prince Oberyn:(

[MizasterJ]

I get the feeling there are far more chapters ending without deaths, besides he has a full arsenal of them.

Yes of corse there are more. It's just a trend that's getting all too familiar and predictable. Don't try to advocate it, it's just a minor discrepancy in a series chock full of splendor.

[Beathag]

When I hauled my spouse to see "The Fellowship of the Ring," he was dismayed by the violence and death (obviously, he had not read the series). And I said, it is a war. I did not realize until I said it, that the war in Middle Earth had been going on for a long time.

This series is the same, but there is no lid on it -- no Rangers to keep the borders safe. Robert's rebellion is barely over when the series starts. There are little uprisings that have been put down here and there. It is simply life in the time of the War of the Roses, which Martin has said this is basically the time period he is using, the pot is always boiling -- some.times more than others. A person could be killed drawing water from the well if a bunch of drunken knights came thundering through the village and trampled the bucket holder.

I am (im)patiently waiting for the time the people I intensely dislike get their due.

[Aldark]

Dont forget Prince Oberyn:(

oh man , he built a bad-ass character only to kill him for no reason...even though he wanted to trigger the actions of tyrion etc. well..

But i should have expectted everything from Martin. He killed Robert ( i couldn't predict this! even though it's logical for reasons stated above...) and even Ned and Renly , couldnt predict all these , but well , after that i expected many things. I feel strange when he tortures the characters like this (why can't Jon for example know that his brothers are alive and well ? ) but it's his art , and that's why it's unique. He has a lot of ways to bring drama , so no , i don't find it repetitive...you never know who will die after all. In fact at Oberyn's and Gregor's (Mountain's) i thought Oberyn would purely slain(with his poisons and all these) Sir Gregor...well... till the last page...so , you don't know what is going to happen!

[theJoker501]

Let's not forget

The Hound