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Modern Masculinity


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Oh no, there's very much many tihngs that most people think of as "the things men do". Not eevry single person ever, but for most people? Yeah, there's an expected standard of "Real men do X and not Y".

Even easier:

Wear a dress.

You'll find out quickly there's very much things that define being a "man" in our society.

Do kilts count as wearing a dress?

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Nope.

Kilts are also manly if you are of the right background.

Seeing as the Scots appropriated the culture of the Romans by the wearing of kilts, would Italian men be of the proper background? :devil:

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Well, good thing we're a multi-cultural progressive leaning forum. No chance for problems at all. And this is before you get to the problem of one person saying:"this is what I think the 'cultural baseline' is" and another saying:"this is what I think masculinity, as defined within my narrow field without trying to define it for millions of people, is or should be".

There'll be variations, though I think most of the things I listed are going to carry over across cultures.

I'm not saying whether being "masculine" is positive, but I suspect similar to being "feminine" people of different cultures can probably recognize some baseline commonality.

I realize it may not be universal though, and exceptions will exist.
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Heterocentrism much?

Also, try gender-flipping it: the definition of femininity is the ability for a woman to make her man happy. While keeping her panties on.

Cool. another fault I get to add to my long list of them. Seriously, I would suggest the ability to make your subject of your affections happy is a reasonably good definition of being a good person. With your clothes on, of course. Or off. Or both. Anyway, point taken. Umm, is grovelling too much a bad thing?

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There'll be variations, though I think most of the things I listed are going to carry over across cultures.
I'm not saying whether being "masculine" is positive, but I suspect similar to being "feminine" people of different cultures can probably recognize some baseline commonality.
I realize it may not be universal though, and exceptions will exist.

Shryke's comment about dresses made the point I think. I think the problem is I'm mixing two things, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of having a meaningful discussion on this with constantly shifting sands and whether or not that means that there's a base set of things that most (a nebulous category in and of itself) people associate with gender roles. I certainly find skirts==women intuitive,even if rappers of all people have been trying to claim it like they did with pink. You start going down that line and things get muddier but that seems like one that stands for most of the places I've lived.

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To me, what makes me a man is being able to take care of my responsibilities and make the people I love happy. As long as I do what those things entail, I feel like a man.

So what makes a woman a woman is what makes a man a man.

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Shryke's comment about dresses made the point I think. I think the problem is I'm mixing two things, the difficulty (or even impossibility) of having a meaningful discussion on this with constantly shifting sands and whether or not that means that there's a base set of things that most (a nebulous category in and of itself) people associate with gender roles.

Some things are going to be dependent on our snap shot in location and time period. Others are likely more constant. [i think we can still have discussions seeing as many of us should at least be aware of variations/deviations from our expected baselines.]

There's the "feminine" actions/traits that make one "unmasculine", but there are things that aren't necessarily [or at all] "feminine" but are also "unmasculine".

For example, if you talk trash but then run from physical confrontation [, that is not a feminine trait].

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This subject really gets me thinking. How much of my own self-perceived queerness rests on the fact that I don't live up to some rigid, constructed idea of masculinity based largely around rape culture and other social poisons? How much stems back to that day when I saw another boy ostracised for playing with a Barbie and internalized the lesson, there and forevermore, that dolls and pink and girl-things were not to be touched, anywhere, ever, for fear of immediate and merciless reprisal?



But as I'm thinking this, I'm tossing back my canned drink, slouching back in the chair with my hand on my potbelly, and then throwing it sidelong into the bin: a perfect picture of a masculine (if not positively so) stereotype. So it's not the smallness or rigid-ness of 'masculinity' that makes me reject it; maybe it's more that I don't see 'masculine' as any kind of desirable thing to be. Not that it's all negative--just that the positive parts don't have much relevance to me. I can appreciate why someone would want to be a horseback rider, or a doctor, or a man, but I want to be none of them.



But would I feel the same way if 'man' were as broad as 'woman' has (due to conscious rejection of essentialism, as per Lyanna) become?


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Apparently, it at least does not include making or eating macarons. I read in the newspaper today that these were the un-manliest of baked goods. So far, I am uncertain as to how this conclusion was reached and what made them less acceptably masculine than say, a cinnamon bun, but I thought I'd put it out there.

I'm guessing it has something to do with Torvald limiting Nora's macaroon intake in A DOLLS HOUSE.

EDIT: IMHO the least masculine baked good is what in the US is called a French Cruller.

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Was this the kinda guy who, if he heard glass breaking in the middle of the night, is he gonna jump out of bed, say, “stay here,” and look through the house naked with a baseball bat, or is he gonna hide under the covers with you?

So Pebble's a man now? ;)

But really, as I've said on previous occasions, if you start appropriating things like "brave" and "self-reliant" as marks of masculinity, it does a serious disservice to we of the non-masculine persuasion, as well as those fellas who may not be especially brave or rugged and suffer in self-esteem because of the supposed lack. Masculinity, unfortunately, has historically been defined as "not wussy girly shit", so my violin is pretty tiny for anyone bewailing the ever-shrinking provisions of Manliness as we ladies usurp more and more of the good adjectives. I could do with changing the paradigm altogether and instead talking about "these are the values and behaviours of a well-balanced adult of either gender" rather than having to stick with these extremely problematic masculine/feminine descriptions.

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it does a serious disservice to we of the non-masculine persuasion, as well as those fellas who may not be especially brave or rugged and suffer in self-esteem because of the supposed lack.

I think there's a difference between defining what falls under masculine and defining masculinity as a net positive. Masculine traits don't necessarily seem like the opposite of feminine to me, just as exhibiting some stereotypically identified-as-feminine traits (kindness, compassion, gentleness) doesn't necessarily invalidate someone from being masculine.

I think masculinity has some requirements, and then some optional behaviors. These aren't all positive. I mean, fighting someone after exchanging some trash talk seems more juvenile than anything, but kiss that masculinity card goodbye if you can't physically back up your words.

Heck that's where the notion of "internet tough guy' comes from - someone who's good at bullying on forums but would never say that shit in real life.

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I think masculinity has some requirements, and then some optional behaviors. These aren't all positive. I mean, fighting someone after exchanging some trash talk seems more juvenile than anything, but kiss that masculinity card goodbye if you can't physically back up your words.

Does physically exclude weapons or man made items ? What if the person themselves made the weapon ?

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Apparently, it at least does not include making or eating macarons. I read in the newspaper today that these were the un-manliest of baked goods. So far, I am uncertain as to how this conclusion was reached and what made them less acceptably masculine than say, a cinnamon bun, but I thought I'd put it out there.

In my experience macarons are temperamental and tricksy wee bastards with a distinct tendency to make unreasonable demands and turn out badly no matter how hard one tries.

I think they might be the baked good that most resembles Senator Ted Cruz.

Is he manly?

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In my experience macarons are temperamental and tricksy wee bastards with a distinct tendency to make unreasonable demands and turn out badly no matter how hard one tries.

I think they might be the baked good that most resembles Senator Ted Cruz.

Is he manly?

What's more manly than playing a game of chicken with both the federal government and your career? That takes balls. eta: Like Sci said, you have to back up your trash talk.

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