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Modern Masculinity


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The problem with what you have to say is you equate it to 'man'. You are describing being a well adjusted, responsible and loving adult.

A penis is hardly required to do anything you mentioned.

Yes this a thousand time. When I think or "manly" qualities I think think of qualities that should be found in adult men, which is not to say they are feminine or universal. They are just not childish. Manly (Read: Mature Adult Human) is knowing who you are and not letting someone else define you. It's knowing that you are one person, not the representative of an entire gender. (You don't like macaroons? That's great that doesn't mean other men are lesser than because they like them). It's being aware of others, and how your actions impact them. It's being a freak'n decent human being, who realizes that other human beings are equally complicated. :)

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to be fair, I already said up thread that my idea of what it takes to be a man is what I feel it takes to be a woman as well.

But then isn't MC right?Isn't the distinction irrelevant? If both men and women are better for doing it you're just describing a good adult. Manliness then has no meaning.

EDIT: You're basically using manhood in the "great step for mankind" sense.Doesn't really say much.

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Here is John Wayne's philosophy...

http://blogs.amctv.com/movie-blog/2010/07/john-wayne-quotes/

My favorite quote is this...

10. “I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.” — The Shootist

I would also like to use this thread to point out one more time that John Wayne never manscaped...

So being a man, according to John Wayne, involves alot of dueling?

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Your a man if you can talk smack straight to someones face and then back it up in the inevitable physical altercation. This rules out 99.99999% of the Keyboard warriors on the Internet who insult people from the safety of their bedrooms.



Your a man if you don't act overly emotional in front of other men, Seriously, no man want's to see another man cry or feel sorry for themselves, keep your damn emotions in check. We don't care if your wife/girlfriend finds the sensitive side of you attractive, we don;t want to see it.



These are the two which just about every guy I know, including myself, lives by.

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Your a man if you can talk smack straight to someones face and then back it up in the inevitable physical altercation. This rules out 99.99999% of the Keyboard warriors on the Internet who insult people from the safety of their bedrooms.

Your a man if you don't act overly emotional in front of other men, Seriously, no man want's to see another man cry or feel sorry for themselves, keep your damn emotions in check. We don't care if your wife/girlfriend finds the sensitive side of you attractive, we don;t want to see it.

These are the two which just about every guy I know, including myself, lives by.

I do hope this post is sarcastic.

You are also a man if you can spell "you are" properly. :P

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Partly depends on the society I guess, but going back to my experience everyone played.You'd get it from women and men.

Yeah, but you don't often have women directly calling out behavior for being un-manly. Maybe they demonstrate it in other ways, but you more frequently hear this kind of judgement from other men. Witness:

Your a man if you can talk smack straight to someones face and then back it up in the inevitable physical altercation. This rules out 99.99999% of the Keyboard warriors on the Internet who insult people from the safety of their bedrooms.

Your a man if you don't act overly emotional in front of other men, Seriously, no man want's to see another man cry or feel sorry for themselves, keep your damn emotions in check. We don't care if your wife/girlfriend finds the sensitive side of you attractive, we don;t want to see it.

These are the two which just about every guy I know, including myself, lives by.

It's all over this thread. :P

Women do it too. I'm not one of these women who says things like, "I hate women; they're all so catty so all my friends are guys." But I will admit that most of the judging of femininity I've heard has been from other women. It's all over ASOIAF as a reflection of how it is in regular society; the people who enforce the femininity (or lack thereof) of, say, Arya and Sansa are the women like Catelyn and Cersei. Ned and Jon don't give much of a shit. The people who enforce the masculinity of people like Sam Tarly and Tyrion are their fathers and other men. (Yes, there are always exceptions. I know. But it's a pretty good reflection of most cultures.)

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OK, I skimmed this thread...



For me, as a doctor, primary and secondary gender characteristics are what defines masculinity...



I don't believe that masculinity is defined by somewhat cultural and historical definitions of the term. For me, masculine man varies from warrior Connan-like type of man to Sheldon Cooper-geek type... A guy is a guy no matter whether he is a soldier, nerd or anything else...


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I do hope this post is sarcastic.

You are also a man if you can spell "you are" properly. :P

I normally differentiate between Your and You're but I failed on this occasion. :bang:

And no, there was nothing sarcastic about that post. Those are just two of the things which would make you a man in the eyes of most other men, stuff like being honest, working hard for your family and being trustworthy have already been said in this thread. What, did you want me to write something else? That would involve me lying.

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Yeah, but you don't often have women directly calling out behavior for being un-manly. Maybe they demonstrate it in other ways, but you more frequently hear this kind of judgement from other men. Witness:

It's all over this thread. :P

Women do it too. I'm not one of these women who says things like, "I hate women; they're all so catty so all my friends are guys." But I will admit that most of the judging of femininity I've heard has been from other women. It's all over ASOIAF as a reflection of how it is in regular society; the people who enforce the femininity (or lack thereof) of, say, Arya and Sansa are the women like Catelyn and Cersei. Ned and Jon don't give much of a shit. The people who enforce the masculinity of people like Sam Tarly and Tyrion are their fathers and other men. (Yes, there are always exceptions. I know. But it's a pretty good reflection of most cultures.)

Damn, you caught me :devil:

I do agree with your post, men will always be more critical of other men for not abiding to certain aspects masculinity and women more critical of other women for not abiding to certain aspects of femininity, I do it myself as you can see, that's how it works in just about every culture, past, present and most likely future.

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I normally differentiate between Your and You're but I failed on this occasion. :bang:

And no, there was nothing sarcastic about that post. Those are just two of the things which would make you a man in the eyes of most other men, stuff like being honest, working hard for your family and being trustworthy have already been said in this thread. What, did you want me to write something else? That would involve me lying.

Well, I just assumed you would be sarcastic because most of the forum probably disagrees with you. :dunno:

I have absolutely no idea why hiding your feelings in front of other people (like your good friends or family, not talking about random strangers here) would be a desirable trait. You also generalise "we" as all men, when I am sure there are also many men that disagree with you and are both open to showing their feelings to others and seeing it as a sign of trust if their friends show their feelings to them.

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Yeah, but you don't often have women directly calling out behavior for being un-manly. Maybe they demonstrate it in other ways, but you more frequently hear this kind of judgement from other men. Witness:

I've noticed women calling out men to their face less but then, I've moved continents and now stay in a completely different culture. Not to mention that most of my experience back home came at the tail end of high school and just beyond. I suppose that it's likely that people get more polite as they age.

I don't see it so much in America or Canada, but the way I was raised, it was something that happened, especially if the discussion was heated.

Well, I just assumed you would be sarcastic because most of the forum probably disagrees with you. :dunno:

I have absolutely no idea why hiding your feelings in front of other people (like your good friends or family, not talking about random strangers here) would be a desirable trait. You also generalise "we" as all men, when I am sure there are also many men that disagree with you and are both open to showing their feelings to others and seeing it as a sign of trust if their friends show their feelings to them.

And it begins.

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Well, I just assumed you would be sarcastic because most of the forum probably disagrees with you. :dunno:

I have absolutely no idea why hiding your feelings in front of other people (like your good friends or family, not talking about random strangers here) would be a desirable trait. You also generalise "we" as all men, when I am sure there are also many men that disagree with you and are both open to showing their feelings to others and seeing it as a sign of trust if their friends show their feelings to them.

This... this is not going to catch on. But it is a nice thought.

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Well, I just assumed you would be sarcastic because most of the forum probably disagrees with you. :dunno:

I have absolutely no idea why hiding your feelings in front of other people (like your good friends or family, not talking about random strangers here) would be a desirable trait. You also generalise "we" as all men, when I am sure there are also many men that disagree with you and are both open to showing their feelings to others and seeing it as a sign of trust if their friends show their feelings to them.

I'm not sure who this men are because I have honestly never met a guy who was that open to anyone, we usually keep stuff to ourselves, it's why so many guys don't go and see the doctor whenever something is up and end up dying as a result, illogical yes, but that's how it works for so many of us. Yes, we may entrust each other with secrets and stuff but it will never get that deep, usually we end up laughing it all off in the end to lighten up the mood. Honestly the only person a guy will ever be fully honest with is his wife/girlfriend, never his mates, who would probably laugh at him for doing so.

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I'm not sure who this men are because I have honestly never met a guy who was that open to anyone, we usually keep stuff to ourselves, it's why so many guys don't go and see the doctor whenever something is up and end up dying as a result, illogical yes, but that's how it works for so many of us. Yes, we may entrust each other with secrets and stuff but it will never get that deep, usually we end up laughing it all off in the end to lighten up the mood. Honestly the only person a guy will ever be fully honest with is his wife/girlfriend, never his mates, who would probably laugh at him for doing so.

:dunno: Apparently I know too little men. Will try to widen my horizons in that direction.

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I'm totally behind the macaron thing. I do not care if a guy declines to eat them for the most misogynistic of reasons as long as I get to eat his share. Also, eating all the macarons is a deal breaker.

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Huh? Mind elaborating what was wrong with my post? Only the fact that it was more serious than the rest of the thread or anything else entirely?

It was a reference to my previous posts, where I predicted that this exact thing will happen: We'll spend time sniping at various definitions of masculinity, not distinguishing between what we personally dislike and what is just popular. And round we go. That's how you get statements like:"I assumed you're being sarcastic because most of the board disagrees", this on an open yet progressive board (it probably doesn't represent the majority view and yet is open to anyone from anywhere)

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` Nice to see a mature conversation about masculinity. I started a thread in General about 'Real Men' where I listed Ned, Doran and others. (In hindsight, I should have given instructions on what I was trying to do.) I left it vague so that posters could give their views; I didn't want to influence the responses. Well, it turned into a shit-show pretty quickly. I was even credited with comments I hadn't made. There were a lot of women and what I'm guessing were men who aren't the most masculine who lashed out. I didn't realize that it was such a sensitive issue. But I can see why women and non-masculine men would get defensive about a thread that could possibly reinforce stereotypes that they might consider to be dangerous or link with traumatic experiences.



As for masculinity, there's the strict reading of the term. Which means anyone born with a penis. If it's masculine behavior we're talking about then it would be behavior that's associated with males; behavior that can be seen at an early age. Things like being physical, competition, etc... I think it it would be the opposite of effeminate behavior. In this case effeminate gay men would not be considered masculine.



But if we're talking about what constitutes a man, then I don't think being super-masculine would factor heavily. So gay men would qualify.



I think men's judgement of another man's masculinity comes in mostly when the man in question does something that can be considered effeminate or has some effeminate tendencies. But I don't think men walk around as the masculinity police.



I'm laid-back and don't behave like a caveman in order to prove my masculinity. But I think some acts are unmanly. Like manscaping and shaving off all the hair on your body. It doesn't mean that men who do it are not men. But to me, it's just not the manliest of acts.



I think right now, at least in the U.S., masculinity is making a comeback. We're getting away from the whole metrosexual thing and getting back to men being more scruffy, etc...


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Btw, I just re-read Richard Morgan's Thirteen (Black Man outside the US). A pretty interesting discussion of masculinity and what it means, even if it read a little too evo-psych for my tastes at times.


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