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Jaime Lannister: condemned for the wrong reason


Berelyn

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A lot of posters in this thread seem to be under the impression, that after killing Bran, there would be no person of dubious loyalty left, who knows of the incest and the paternity of Cersei's children and Cersei and her kids would be safe afterwards.



IMO, this is wrong:


Look at the situation in King's Landing:


-Stannis Baratheon suspected it quite early. After the death of Jon Arryn he all but knows, that Cersei's children are not Robert's. IMO, Jon Arryn showed him the book, which together with a comment by Sansa and his own observations was enough for Ned Stark to see the truth



-Varys probably has known this for some years, since Cersei and Jaime were not really discreet. IMO, he is just waiting for fAegon to mature and will then tell the truth in order to destabilize the realm.



-Littlefinger learned of Jon's investigations and being a close friend of Jon's wife Lysa, who loved him enough to poison her husband, probably knew what Jon Arryn was looking for as well. The Lannisters may think, that he is their ally, but I do not know, whether they would let him live, if they knew, that he knew about the treason and the princes' paternity.



Grand Maester Pycelle regards Jon Arryn as such a threat, that he let him die , while pretending to be treating him. (I do not know, whether Jon Arryn would have lived, had Pycelle not prevented Jon Arryn's maester from purging of the poison. If he had survived, then this would be another murder on the door of the Lannisters)


Of all the people I mentioned, Grand Maester Pycelle is the only one, who is loyal to House Lannister above all else.



So even if Bran Stark had died, there were a lot of influential people with no House Lannister loyalty left (Stannis Baratheon, Littlefinger, Varys) , that they would have to be murdered in order for Cersei and her children to be safe. (Especially since all these people profited, if the truth were known: Stannis would be the rightful king and a war for succession would be ideal for Littlefinger's and Varys' plans of creating chaos)



Like the murder of Jon Arryn, some people probably would have asked questions and started investigations, which might lead to them finding out the truth about Cersei's children and so on...



IMO, by the time some people learned of Jon Arryn's investigations it was impossible for the Lannister to keep the truth from coming out. So if Jaime Lannister had succeeded in killing Bran Stark it would only have bought them time.

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Stick to the text, not your invented version of things.

There is no understanding of any vile act (he doesn't even understand it is sex, let alone vile), nor shock. Bran was in an extremely unsafe position and, caught peeking, he instinctively knew he was in the wrong (regardless on what he saw) and moved too quickly, slipped and fell. Before anyone did anything other than shout and point.

He caught himself, one handed, knocking his breath out with the impact.

Bran is slipping, losing his grip, and destined to fall. Jaime saves him and hauls him up.

Jaime loathes what he must do here, but do it he must.

1. You know this how? Note how the killing comes immediately after Aerys' plans for KL are made clear,.

2. You know this how? Noe that this goes against Jaime's thoughts in his own mind, where he is unlikely to lie.

3. So morally repulsive that it was standard for Kings? And it started before he was a knight, and was manipulated by Cersei all the way. But yes, it was wrong. Just not the way or the magnitude that it is presented.

4. Absolutely

5. Sure, lets leave my life, my lovers life, and her three kids lives hang on the silence of a kid who has no reason to obey. Forever.

Or, no matter how much we loath it, we can take the pragmatic course in the situation that does the least harm all round, especially to those we hold dear, and let nature take its course. The boy slipped and fell.

One would think that. Another would not. Jaime tells us he did not. Nor is it known whether this was actually practically feasible.

But you know, lets not let facts and what a character might or might not know or believe get in the way of a good hating...

Heh, quite right.

This is a stretch of epic proportion your trying to say if Jaime and Cersie were not there having sex Bran would have still fell and that line of thought is faulty. If Jaime and Cersie were not their having sex, Bran would have not gotten curious of the groans and moaning to check out the situation. Bran would not have been shocked by being discovered this would have led to the incident not happening. Your other faulty line of thought revolves around this you take responsibilty away from the culprit. Jaime catches Bran then decides to push him. This is premeditated have you heard this term before maybe you have. It would be a different story all together if Jaime panicked and shoved him. Jaime steadies Bran then Jaime has a conversation with the young man weighs out his options then goes ahead and attempts to kill him these actions are thought out and premeditated. Simple. Finally comprehension of context. I love how you highlight what you feel is important in the text to and try to disregard the rest. It does not work it is a weak argument. you cannot sideline and marginalize the work for a desired result. It only attempts to steer something most already understand is not correct.

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You have any text proof for that?

He doesn't. In fact, there's textual evidence against it.

Jaime (from ASOS):

"The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

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Even Tywin did not foresee Elia's murder, claiming "I doubt I mentioned her at all." Why would Jaime think to protect her?

I can't let Tywin off the hook on that; he sent Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch into Maegor's, not a pair of Crakehalls.

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OP is absolutly right, pushing that Brat Bran out of the Window wasnt realy that bad (it is a bad world!)

Unfortunately he survived and had to give us the most boring Chapters in the entire Series!

Bran's chapters are where we get stories of the long night, the Night's King, the Rat Cook, the history of the Starks, the history of the Wall, and a first hand account of a warg. Let me guess... you've only read the series once?

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People can sometimes mix up the words understandable and justifiable. Jaimie's actions towards Bran are understandable. But there is nothing justifiable about them.

Yep, totally agree. Even Ned understands why he did it and does not condemn him. In fact, he wonders if he would have done any different. That does not make them right, but IMO it doesn't make it a character defining act either, which most people who don't like Jaime gravitate towards.

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Bran's chapters are where we get stories of the long night, the Night's King, the Rat Cook, the history of the Starks, the history of the Wall, and a first hand account of a warg. Let me guess... you've only read the series once?

Condescending much?

I've read the series quite a few times (not that makes any difference in this case really) and none of these things you listed was particularly interesting to me.

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Bran's chapters are where we get stories of the long night, the Night's King, the Rat Cook, the history of the Starks, the history of the Wall, and a first hand account of a warg. Let me guess... you've only read the series once?

So what? He is a boring Character and the Warg-Thing is just stupid. The only postive are the history lessons.

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Condescending much?

I've read the series quite a few times (not that makes any difference in this case really) and none of these things you listed was particularly interesting to me.

I wasn't talking to you and wasn't trying to be condescending. It's just that the first time through all that back story stuff is boring, but on re-reads it tells as much of the story as the main plot, hence guessing that he's only read it through a single time. History repeats itself, it's a constant theme in the books, and the things I listed have a lot to do with the current events. In fact, most of the interesting theories are based off of things we learn from Bran's chapters.

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OP is absolutly right, pushing that Brat Bran out of the Window wasnt realy that bad (it is a bad world!)

No it's not bad; its disgusting. Probably the worse act in the books even if Bran survived. Bad things happening in the world doesn't justify other bad things so this point is either flawed or you're just a troll.

Unfortunately he survived and had to give us the most boring Chapters in the entire Series!

Yep. just a troll.

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