Stannis' offer to Jon

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Stannis doesn't just ask Jon to become Lord Stark, he asked him to give up the old Gods and destroy the Wirewood trees. This is a no can do for Jon.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Nobody in the North would've followed a bastard who got away from the NW by claiming the Old Gods aren't real and then burned Winterfell's weirwood grove. It was never an option at all.

I agree, but is it certain that burning the weirwoods would have been a condition? Stannis never says that it is required, Melisandre only says something similar but as a suggestion (but she does that with everyone) and then Jon later thinks to himself that he would have to. After reading ADWD I think it would be out of character for Stannis to insist on a religious change at Winterfell

[Ramsay Gimp]

double post

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

1. Yes, and the Southern King they have nominally bow down to is Tommen, not Stannis. I fail to see how the fact that they have nominally, and I can't stress this word enough, accept the IT makes Stannis right to WF any stronger, especially considering he is not even him the one for whom the Northern Lords have renew their pledges of alliance.

2. You mean to us readers with our privileged omniscient perspecetive, which none of the characters, except perhaps Bloodraven shared? Because as far as the story goes, Tommen is the one sitting in the throne and Stannis has got squat of evidence to prove he's not Robert's. And in any case, the North didn't foreswore their alliance to the IT based on whether Joffrey was not the rightful King by virtue of not being Robert's.

3. As far I gather from the books, they have gathered around him to fight a common enemy, but this doesn't inmediately translates into vows of fealthy.

In fact, it is Stannis the one who appears to be bending to their wants. The whole freezing suicide march to WF was only agreed to because otherwise Stannis would have lost the Northern host.

Again, you seem to conflatuate readers' knowledge with characters in-world knowledge. They are not one and the same so you can''t expect characters to act upon knowledge they don't even have. Also, hasn't this story taught you that rights mean nothing when it comes to claiming power. Aegon I won and forged the IT by right of conquest, Robert won it from the Targs by the same principle, Robb was fighting for the independenc of his, Dany is going to come to claim it also by right of conquest. So, if Stannis wants the throne he has to fight for it. Until he has fought and claim it for his own he remains very much a pretender, just like the others.

All excellent points.

1/2) True the 7k are right now fighting a civil war. Lords are supposed to pick sides. But right now no one in the north is backing the independence option. They tried that one, and lost. Right now, most lords of the north are backing Tommen or Stannis. But all of them are formally acknowledging the IT as an institution above themselves, whomever ends up winning it, will have the dominium of the north (at least until the GNC triggers)

There is no self-determination right in Westeros. You don´t get to decide whether you want to kneel for the king or not. Your fealty is expected, whether you like that king or you don´t. If this wasn’t the case, then when a king died, every lord would have the choice to leave the 7k and start his own petty kingdom.

You can´t say “if Stannis(or tommen) wins, we are part of the 7k, if he loses we are independent”

Independence can only be won by conquest. So, if no one is formally willing to fight for that independence, then they are bound to the IT.

Having said this, the conversation started because I said that Stannis is the rightfull king and therefore Winterfell is his to give or take. He does have the right. Of course, this is known by readers, and other astute observers of westeros. But those who don´t take Stannis as their king, because they don´t believe his claim, or because it´s not in their interests, or simply because they don´t like him, won´t accept his right to rule (which includes awarding castles and lands).

Of whom are we speaking then? If you recall the first post:

Jon was right to refuse it.

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

The only question that matters to end this discussion is : Does Jon question Stannisis rights as king?

Fortunately we have a lot of POV chapters which shows how jon thinks. I don´t recall any instance where Jon questions Stannis rights. On the other hand we have a lot of instances were Jon seems to accept Stannis authority.

3) I seem to recall that the karstarks and half of the Umbers did declare for him. I´ll look for the quotes if you want. I guess the rest did also, knowing Stannis personality. And the way Jon described the plan to visit the MC also seemed like he had in mind that the clans would support Stannis claim.

BTW,I have explicitly been saying when I was talking from a characters Pov, or when I was talking from the readers POV.

I agree with the rest.

[Lady Sharya]

The only question that matters to end this discussion is : Does Jon question Stannisis rights as king?

Fortunately we have a lot of POV chapters which shows how jon thinks. I don´t recall any instance where Jon questions Stannis rights. On the other hand we have a lot of instances were Jon seems to accept Stannis authority.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

..

Yes, Jon never wanted himself to be the on stealing WF from Sansa.. of course he would have preferred for her to keep it..

But a couple of chapters later, they speak of giving Winterfell to Karstark:

If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman.”

“A northman.” Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace. “The Karstarks abandoned my brother amongst his enemies.”

“After your brother took off Lord Rickard’s head. Arnolf was a thousand leagues away. He has Stark blood in him. The blood of Winterfell.”

“No more than half the other Houses of the north.”

“Those other Houses have not declared for me.”

“Arnolf Karstark is an old man with a crooked back, and even in his youth he was never the fighter Lord Rickard was. The rigors of the campaign may well kill him.”

“He has heirs,” Stannis snapped. “Two sons, six grandsons, some daughters. If Robert had fathered trueborn sons, many who are dead might still be living.”

“Your Grace would do better with Mors Crowfood.”

Before this he, again, expresses his wish for WF to end in Sansa´s hand. But he isnt closed to Stannis awarding the castle to northmen. Better umber than Karstark.

[Lady Sharya]

I misunderstood your question then. I thought you were asking if Jon ever questioned Stannis' authority, and I showed you that, not only does he question it, he says it straight out to Stannis 3x in the same conversation.

Clearly, he doesn't press the issue with Stannis because he is walking a line between diplomacy and his duties as LC. He wants to maintain a working relationship and he does deny Stannis' entitlement demands with what he has the power to (NW property).

As LC, Jon has NO authority to take any action with regard to Winterfell, therefore he doesn't engage in a power struggle with Stannis. To suggest this or Jon's advise on winning over Northern lords in any way validates Stannis' rights is wrong. It also misses the rich dinamics between Jon & Stannis. They are both limited in power and need the support of other for own goals...Stannis to save Westeros from Lannisters; Jon to save Westros & Wildlings from Others.

IMO these two are playing the game of politics with each other splendidly! I love their exchanges as it shows both of their abilities to play the Game of Thrones. I hope they end up on the same side in the end.

[Lady Sharya]

I agree, but is it certain that burning the weirwoods would have been a condition? Stannis never says that it is required, Melisandre only says something similar but as a suggestion (but she does that with everyone) and then Jon later thinks to himself that he would have to. After reading ADWD I think it would be out of character for Stannis to insist on a religious change at Winterfell

You are right, Stannis doesn't confirm that burning Weirwoods is a stipulation to the offer, but he doesn't deny it either. He says nothing.

Since he wants Jon to take the seat in WF, you'd think he would clarify it to Jon if burning WF's Heart tree was not a requirement.

SofS, Ch 76 Jon

“Jon.” Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. “R’hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light.”

Then there's this after he talks about the requirement of the Lord of WF to marry Val to assure fealty:

“Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father’s lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king’s peace and the king’s laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god.”...

“Say nothing of what we’ve discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell.”

I guess it's a matter of interpretation but I take this to mean that "pledging to Stannis' service" includes taking the Lord of Light as one's god and that includes (at least eventually) burning Godswoods.

So, I didn't find any passage where Stannis actually states that Jon must burn WF Godswood, but he certainly interpreted the conversation to mean that.

[Lord Potsmoke]

Worst part of the books so far, when Stannis makes the offer a second time, it REALLY pisses me off Jon doesn't take it. fully shit.

[bemused]

At the point in the story that the offer was made, I think it's certain that the burning of the godswood would have been a condition. Jon knows that Mel considers all other gods false gods. He's heard about the burning of Alester Florent, among other stories (supposedly the reason for favourable winds?), so I think it's very likely that Mel's burning of The Seven is commonly known as well. I'm sure Jon is correct in assuming that burning the godswood would have been a requirement - at that time and considering that he would be beholden to Stannis for his position.

Stannis is slow to bend, but he can do it and by the end of ADWD, his attitude is changing.. because he has the alliance with the clans (thanks to Jon). Northmen make up half his forces, or more, and so he deems it wise not to offend their religious beliefs, lest they abandon him. This is in keeping with his obvious pragmatism.

Stannis had no belief in R'Hllor to begin with.. and only came to recognise him through witnessing Mel's powers (real and otherwise), and actually seeing visions in the flames himself.

After reading the Theon chapter from TWoW, I strongly suspect that Stannis' attitude will be changing further.

The behaviour of the ravens and the prospect of taking Theon to the Tree and what might develop there, hint at the possibility of Stannis witnessing some magic attributable to the old gods.

So, while I agree that late ADWD Stannis would probably not insist on burning the godswood, late ASoS Stannis would have.

 

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

At the point in the story that the offer was made, I think it's certain that the burning of the godswood would have been a condition. Jon knows that Mel considers all other gods false gods. He's heard about the burning of Alester Florent, among other stories (supposedly the reason for favourable winds?), so I think it's very likely that Mel's burning of The Seven is commonly known as well. I'm sure Jon is correct in assuming that burning the godswood would have been a requirement - at that time and considering that he would be beholden to Stannis for his position.

Stannis is slow to bend, but he can do it and by the end of ADWD, his attitude is changing.. because he has the alliance with the clans (thanks to Jon). Northmen make up half his forces, or more, and so he deems it wise not to offend their religious beliefs, lest they abandon him. This is in keeping with his obvious pragmatism.

Stannis had no belief in R'Hllor to begin with.. and only came to recognise him through witnessing Mel's powers (real and otherwise), and actually seeing visions in the flames himself.

After reading the Theon chapter from TWoW, I strongly suspect that Stannis' attitude will be changing further.

Hidden Content

So, while I agree that late ADWD Stannis would probably not insist on burning the godswood, late ASoS Stannis would have.

 

 

I agree. When Suggs or one of those douches is asking him to sacrifice a nonbeliever to end the blizzard, and he goes: "Half my army is made up of nonbelievers, I will have no burnings!", that's very telling in that he doesn't want to piss off the northerners.

If Jon had said like, "Okay, I'm in, I accept your offer, with two conditions: One, we get to keep the Old Gods and the weirwoods, and Two, I don't marry Val. Sure, she's smoking hot, but that would be a waste of a marriage alliance because it's no guarantee the wildlings would follow us, and it might even offend the northern lords because I'd be choosing to marry a wildling over one of their daughters", I wonder if Stannis would've agreed. Probably.

And in that case, I guess Manderly wouldn't have to go through the complicated "Skagos Mission" just to get a Stark male, with Jon around. So maybe White Harbor just declares war as soon as Manderly's son is returned to him.

[bemused]

Hmm... well, when Stannis first makes the offer, Jon has no real rank or position in the NW, so he wouldn't have been in a position to barter with Stannis the way he can after becoming LC.

Both characters grow (or adjust) by the end of ADWD.

[Whitering]

I don't have a problem with Jon turning down the offer, although he didn't think about it, only one of the claimants to the throne would have recognized the legitimization, so it would have only increased the turmoil.

Jon hasn't thought overly much of seeing Summer, granted he had a lot on his mind at the time, but he was saved by a Direwolf, which doesn't seem likely if it wasn't still tied to a living Stark. None of the wolves ever showed any inclination towards the other Starks, other than when the relevant child was present.

[Knight of the Turnip Tree]

I think it only would have been an option if Jon was able to convince Stannis there would be no weirwood burning and his acceptance was dependent upon the other northern lords agreeing to accept him as lord and release him from his vows.

Otherwise, as others have said, he just looks like Stannis' puppet and a traitor to the Old Gods. All his physical resemblance to Ned Stark, his volunteering to take the Black, wouldn't matter near so much at that point.