Stannis' offer to Jon

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

Nobody in the North would've followed a bastard who got away from the NW by claiming the Old Gods aren't real and then burned Winterfell's weirwood grove. It was never an option at all.

This.

I like the decision. A if you swear a vow in front of gods and men it should mean something. I dont want Jon to leave the NW even if it could be beneficial, the gods frown upon oathbreakers.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon was right to refuse it.

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

2. It'd require Jon to turn his back on the old gods.

3. Everyone in the North would just view Jon as Stannis's puppet.

I keep seeing people ask why Jon would accept Robb's will but not Stannis's offer. It's pretty clear cut.

1. Winterfell and the northern dominion were Robb's to pass on.

2. It doesn't rely on Jon forfeiting his religion.

3. The northerners would see it as legitimate.

[Spartan64Destiny]

Had Ygritte been alive or heal from a wound not so mortal, I think Jon would have taken the offer of becoming a Stark and Warden of The North. He would of United The Wildings with their clansmen and the noble houses of The North, but it would have been one of those potential happy endings GRRM would not have wanted. Jon and Ygritte's offspring would have been an interesting bunch growing up whether they would've been Stark or Targaryen.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Jon was right to refuse it.

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

2. It'd require Jon to turn his back on the old gods.

3. Everyone in the North would just view Jon as Stannis's puppet.

I keep seeing people ask why Jon would accept Robb's will but not Stannis's offer. It's pretty clear cut.

1. Winterfell and the northern dominion were Robb's to pass on.

2. It doesn't rely on Jon forfeiting his religion.

3. The northerners would see it as legitimate.

Robb´s kingdom wasn´t really secured. No one (else) accepted him as rightful king of an independent kingdom. Actually his war for independence ended in slaughter for the north.

Stannis on the other hand does have a claim over the seven kingdoms

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Robb´s kingdom wasn´t really secured. No one (else) accepted him as rightful king of an independent kingdom. Actually his war for independence ended in slaughter for the north.

Stannis on the other hand does have a claim over the seven kingdoms

Robb's kingdom is legitimate in the eyes of the lords he ruled, and that's what matters. You can't say that Robb's will doesn't matter because no one (else) accepted his kingdom and then turn around and act like Stannis's word means anything to the northerners who recognized Robb as their king. Jon accepting Winterfell from Stannis does not help him unite the north or give him legitimacy in the eyes of the northerners. Stannis's claim to the Seven Kingdoms doesn't matter a whit when the northerners view themselves as an independent sovereign state.

[shearstone]

Robb´s kingdom wasn´t really secured. No one (else) accepted him as rightful king of an independent kingdom. Actually his war for independence ended in slaughter for the north.

Stannis on the other hand does have a claim over the seven kingdoms

The Northern Lords accepted him as their king, actually they installed him as their king it doesn't matter to them what the southerners choose to believe. That slaughter was done through treachery and breaking of the sacred guest right which is abhorrent to their religion. The North Remembers and it has strengthened the north's resolve not broken it.

Stannis has a claim yes but the northern lords have shown absolutely no evidence of giving a damn about his claim the northerners that fight for him are doing so to kill boltons and freys not to install Stannis as king. Manderly has expressed his support but we've already seen he's well adept at mummery and alot of us believe he has other ideas rather than taking Stannis as his king.

[Free Northman]

Winterfell is the 8000 year old seat of the oldest Ruling House in Westeros. The Kings in the North for 7700 years.

Stannis is from an upjumped nothing House that did't even exist 300 years ago.

Winterfell is not Stannis's to give to Jon. It is for Jon to claim in his own right, and for him to tell Stannis to get the hell back to the South rather than making claims on territories he has no right to.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Robb's kingdom is legitimate in the eyes of the lords he ruled, and that's what matters. You can't say that Robb's will doesn't matter because no one (else) accepted his kingdom and then turn around and act like Stannis's word means anything to the northerners who recognized Robb as their king. Jon accepting Winterfell from Stannis does not help him unite the north or give him legitimacy in the eyes of the northerners. Stannis's claim to the Seven Kingdoms doesn't matter a whit when the northerners view themselves as an independent sovereign state.

The lords he rules have no legitimacy whatsoever to steal half of the dominions of the rightful king. There are no self-determination rights in Westeros.

They try to do it (independence) by force. Which is totally cool, since conquest is a valid title to obtain territory. But till that conquest is not completed, (the conquest is consolidated when the enemy is subjugated) you can´t really talk about a change in sovereignty. In our history a formal agreement was usually reached, in form of peace treaties (that end the state of war), and formal recognition to the new sovereign.

The will should be enforceable to Robb´s bannermen, as long as they maintain the hostilities I guess. But most of them have already bent the knee. They do not view themselves as independent any longer, but bound to the authority of the IT.

[Free Northman]

The lords he rules have no legitimacy whatsoever to steal half of the dominions of the rightful king. There are no self-determination rights in Westeros.

They try to do it (independence) by force. Which is totally cool, since conquest is a valid title to obtain territory. But till that conquest is not completed, (the conquest is consolidated when the enemy is subjugated) you can´t really talk about a change in sovereignty. In our history a formal agreement was usually reached, in form of peace treaties (that end the state of war), and formal recognition to the new sovereign.

The will should be enforceable to Robb´s bannermen, as long as they maintain the hostilities I guess. But most of them have already bent the knee. They do not view themselves as independent any longer, but bound to the authority of the IT.

Watch and learn, my young friend. Watch and learn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The lords he rules have no legitimacy whatsoever to steal half of the dominions of the rightful king. There are no self-determination rights in Westeros.

They try to do it (independence) by force. Which is totally cool, since conquest is a valid title to obtain territory. But till that conquest is not completed, (the conquest is consolidated when the enemy is subjugated) you can´t really talk about a change in sovereignty. In our history a formal agreement was usually reached, in form of peace treaties (that end the state of war), and formal recognition to the new sovereign.

The will should be enforceable to Robb´s bannermen, as long as they maintain the hostilities I guess. But most of them have already bent the knee. They do not view themselves as independent any longer, but bound to the authority of the IT.

This might be the public stance. Privately, it isn't. Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont, out of the mouths of babes. The northerners have no intention of being ruled by either the Boltons or Stannis.

The fact that Stannis thought the northerners would accept Jon as his puppet governor in Winterfell after burning down the godswood shows just how clueless he is about the North and its politics and history. Notice too that it's primarily by following Jon's advice that Stannis has gained northern support up to this point. Stannis wanted to march on the Dreadfort. Jon told him that was suicidal and stupid and said no, go to the mountain clans and go relieve Deepwood Motte. If Stannis had followed his original plan, he'd be a skin hanging on Roose's wall by now.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The Northern Lords accepted him as their king, actually they installed him as their king it doesn't matter to them what the southerners choose to believe. That slaughter was done through treachery and breaking of the sacred guest right which is abhorrent to their religion. The North Remembers and it has strengthened the north's resolve not broken it.

Stannis has a claim yes but the northern lords have shown absolutely no evidence of giving a damn about his claim the northerners that fight for him are doing so to kill boltons and freys not to install Stannis as king. Manderly has expressed his support but we've already seen he's well adept at mummery and alot of us believe he has other ideas rather than taking Stannis as his king.

I understand the politics. I understand that the northerners don´t care what Stannis might say

I´m just saying the King does have legal authority to award his people (or jon for that matter) with castles and lands of his choosing. Since everything belongs to him and he is the sole source of sovereignty. Whether he can enforce his will or not is another issue.

The way the war ended also is irrelevant in this discussion. The fact is Robb´s intent to steal the north and the riverlands by force failed. Therefore the north was never actually independent, just ruled de facto by a rebel lord. And not even that since the north was later occupied by the Ironborn.

[Free Northman]

I understand the politics. I understand that the northerners don´t care what Stannis might say

I´m just saying the King does have legal authority to award his people (or jon for that matter) with castles and lands of his choosing. Since everything belongs to him and he is the sole source of sovereignty. Whether he can enforce his will or not is another issue.

The way the war ended also is irrelevant in this discussion. The fact is Robb´s intent to steal the north and the riverlands by force failed. Therefore the north was never actually independent, just ruled de facto by a rebel lord. And not even that since the north was later occupied by the Ironborn.

There is no law in Westeros. There is no legal right. Stannis has this supposed legal right to give Casterly Rock to whoever he wants, too. Let's see how far this legal right gets him.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Watch and learn, my young friend. Watch and learn.

What should i watch?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I understand the politics. I understand that the northerners don´t care what Stannis might say

I´m just saying the King does have legal authority to award his people (or jon for that matter) with castles and lands of his choosing. Since everything belongs to him and he is the sole source of sovereignty. Whether he can enforce his will or not is another issue.

The way the war ended also is irrelevant in this discussion. The fact is Robb´s intent to steal the north and the riverlands by force failed. Therefore the north was never actually independent, just ruled de facto by a rebel lord. And not even that since the north was later occupied by the Ironborn.

1. And how exactly is Stannis going to enforce his will when the northerners don't care what he might say? Governance goes both ways. You can't govern people who don't accept your authority to govern them.

2. Following #1, without the ability to enforce your decisions, what good are they?

3. You make an error in assuming the war ever actually ended. I'm sure the northerners and riverlords would be very interested to learn this.

[shearstone]

The lords he rules have no legitimacy whatsoever to steal half of the dominions of the rightful king. There are no self-determination rights in Westeros.

They try to do it (independence) by force. Which is totally cool, since conquest is a valid title to obtain territory. But till that conquest is not completed, (the conquest is consolidated when the enemy is subjugated) you can´t really talk about a change in sovereignty. In our history a formal agreement was usually reached, in form of peace treaties (that end the state of war), and formal recognition to the new sovereign.

The will should be enforceable to Robb´s bannermen, as long as they maintain the hostilities I guess. But most of them have already bent the knee. They do not view themselves as independent any longer, but bound to the authority of the IT.

I don't agree with this the reason they were bound to the Iron Throne in the first place was out of choice not conquest. Torhen bent the knee to Aegon and I assume made oaths to him, but as we know Oaths are a two way agreement which Aerys broke and led to Ned rebelling and then Jofffrey broke. Robb is a Stark and as such a direct descendent of Torhen and once the oath was broken by Joffrey Robb was well within his rights to either support another claimant or decide to cut ties and become a king again. Of course the Iron Throne disputes this but it doesn't make Robbs actions any less legal in this society there is no independent adjudicator so each side have as much legal right as the other. Meaning Robb was a legitimate king in law so assuming the North openly goes for independence again their chosen king will also have a legitimate right to that independence as Robb's heir.

[Ghost's Shadow]

But the Iron Throne didn't care much for the Starks. Both the Targs as the Baratheon/Lannisters execute the Wardens of the North just because they feel like it, not because they're guilty of terrible, completely unforgivable things.

The North HAS HAD IT.

Let the South come to the North and try to conquer it to re-integrate it back into the Kingdom, if they want it so much.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

This might be the public stance. Privately, it isn't. Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont, out of the mouths of babes. The northerners have no intention of being ruled by either the Boltons or Stannis.

The fact that Stannis thought the northerners would accept Jon as his puppet governor in Winterfell after burning down the godswood shows just how clueless he is about the North and its politics and history. Notice too that it's primarily by following Jon's advice that Stannis has gained northern support up to this point. Stannis wanted to march on the Dreadfort. Jon told him that was suicidal and stupid and said no, go to the mountain clans and go relieve Deepwood Motte. If Stannis had followed his original plan, he'd be a skin hanging on Roose's wall by now.

I´m sure it is. I´m a firm believer of the GNC. I´m just saying formally the war for independence is over. The north lost. They couldn’t secure the independent kingdom they wanted. Therefore they are formally part of the Seven Kingdoms once again. As such, they are under the authority of the King of Westeros. Some have taken Tommen. Stannis also has a claim to the IT.

My point is that Winterfell belongs to the king. Therefore he can award Jon with whatever title, castle, and land holdings he chooses. He has the authority to do so.

I agree with everything else you said.

[Free Northman]

What should i watch?

Developments in the North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I´m sure it is. I´m a firm believer of the GNC. I´m just saying formally the war for independence is over. The north lost. They couldn’t secure the independent kingdom they wanted. Therefore they are formally part of the Seven Kingdoms once again. As such, they are under the authority of the King of Westeros. Some have taken Tommen. Stannis also has a claim to the IT.

My point is that Winterfell belongs to the king. Therefore he can award Jon with whatever title, castle, and land holdings he chooses. He has the authority to do so.

I agree with everything else you said.

But it isn't over. And I'm kind of baffled that on the one hand you say the war for northern independence is over but on the other you say you believe the GNC. Pretty much the entire point of the GNC is that the war isn't over and is just being fought through different means.

Stannis can award on paper anything he wants, you're right. That doesn't mean it will actually happen, that it can actually be enforced or that the northerners have to support it or go along with it or honor it in any way.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

There is no law in Westeros. There is no legal right. Stannis has this supposed legal right to give Casterly Rock to whoever he wants, too. Let's see how far this legal right gets him.

There is a very underdeveloped law system. Not a codified one surely. But we have heard many times about the laws and rights. Laws of men, laws of gods. Maesters may even study law and have a piece of their chain to show it.. And the king has a master of laws in his council.

The guest right and the laws of hospitality is a perfect example of how customs became laws. But the fact that we talk about hereditary titles, means that there is a succession law.

Yes, in a weak monarchy like westeros, the king might have the authority to do many things; still he would be very stupid to attempt to advance against the interest of the powerful nobles. Like i said, how to enforce his authority is another issue.

I´m just saying:

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

The king does have "nominal" dominium over all of westeros. Therefore he does have the right to strip winterfell from Bolton and award someone else.