Stannis' offer to Jon

[Winterfellian]

1) The north has surrendered formally. It´s not my assumption, it happened. The fact that Manderly and others are conspiring in the shadows to rebel again, does not change the fact that they are sworn again to the king of the 7k. If that is the case, then WF does belong to a southern king.

2) I am not trying to inflate Stannis to more than he is. Just stating the obvious thing to all readers. He is the rightful king. Tommen is a usurper.

3) True. The north (most of it) has declared for Tommen.

Others, like the karstark´s, half of umbers, Mountain clans, Mormont, Glover has declared for Stannis (these last ones i can´t recall if they have formally taken him as king, or just marching with him)

The point is that, either the north is independent, or they are not. Since they lost their war, in legal terms, they are bound with the rest of the 7k under one king.

whichever ends up with the IT, is another matter.

But we as readers know, who has the better claim. Again:

Is Stannis the righfull king? yes

If he is the rightful king, then he has all the rights and obligations of a king, including dominium of the north and winterfell.

1. Yes, and the Southern King they have nominally bow down to is Tommen, not Stannis. I fail to see how the fact that they have nominally, and I can't stress this word enough, accept the IT makes Stannis right to WF any stronger, especially considering he is not even him the one for whom the Northern Lords have renew their pledges of alliance.

2. You mean to us readers with our privileged omniscient perspecetive, which none of the characters, except perhaps Bloodraven shared? Because as far as the story goes, Tommen is the one sitting in the throne and Stannis has got squat of evidence to prove he's not Robert's. And in any case, the North didn't foreswore their alliance to the IT based on whether Joffrey was not the rightful King by virtue of not being Robert's.

3. As far I gather from the books, they have gathered around him to fight a common enemy, but this doesn't inmediately translates into vows of fealthy.

In fact, it is Stannis the one who appears to be bending to their wants. The whole freezing suicide march to WF was only agreed to because otherwise Stannis would have lost the Northern host.

Again, you seem to conflatuate readers' knowledge with characters in-world knowledge. They are not one and the same so you can''t expect characters to act upon knowledge they don't even have. Also, hasn't this story taught you that rights mean nothing when it comes to claiming power. Aegon I won and forged the IT by right of conquest, Robert won it from the Targs by the same principle, Robb was fighting for the independenc of his, Dany is going to come to claim it also by right of conquest. So, if Stannis wants the throne he has to fight for it. Until he has fought and claim it for his own he remains very much a pretender, just like the others.

[Mikeygigs]

Words are wind.

Had Stannis made it clear to Jon that he'd relieve him of his vows, and he could keep to the Old Gods and not burn down the Godswood Jon would have ultimately accepted. That is the single most important reason as to why he kept his vows. He has no great love for the Watch (still doesn't, actually), and he would have better served the realm as lord of Winterfell since he would have far more swords under his command to defend against the Others.

Also, I think its a bit naive to suggest that the North WOULDN't have rallied behind Jon. Alys Karstark specifically goes to Jon, a son of Ned Stark, for assistance. Jon gives Stannis, someone with little power and a foreign religion, advice on how to gather the strength of the Mountain Clans. He knows the North and its people, and they know him; a son of Eddard, a brother to Robb, their king.

Would the North fight against a son of Ned Stark given the alternatives? Rickon and Bran are dead until they return, no one wants Sansa while she is married to Tyrion, and Arya is in Braavos (though, I do think she'll return), and the one the Boltons have is a fake.

They would have most certainly rallied behind Jon had Stannis/Melisandre not insist that he burn the Godswood. If you still disagree, ask yourself, would the northern lords choose Roose Bolton/Freys over a son of Ned Stark? (Especially once Tywin is dead) Anyone who thinks they would should re-read the RW, and its aftermath.

[Lord of Tree Tower]

I was wondering what's the common opinion on Jon declining Stannis' offer of legitimization and lordship of Winterfell. Couldn't find a thread so I made one.

In my own opinion, I agree that deserting the Night's Watch to join Robb's campaign in aGoT would've been a folly. One soldier wouldn't have made much of a difference, the Watch was starting to face a serious threat and it would've been treacherous to boot. So good job there, Jon.

BUT I think refusing the mentioned offer was not a smart move, even if Jon hadn't ended up as a stabbing post for his brothers. In one sweep Jon could have united the North once more, carried on the Stark legacy, avenged and honored the memory of Ned and Robb, retaken Winterfell for the Starks and helped Stannis save the realm. Justice and honor, and what's the harm in some personal benefits?

The main arguments for this were keeping his honor and vows as well as fighting the Others, I believe. But helping Stannis win the throne and Wardening the North would have been the best of preparations for the Long Night coming. Stannis is the only king candidate who actually gives a damn about it and as the Warden Jon could greatly support the Watch, like Ned did. And if it's honor we're talking about, what about Robb's and Ned's? They were cruelly betrayed and murdered and Jon had a chance to put some right into it, to continue their fight. I say he should have taken it. He should have pledged for the rightful king and taken his place as the Warden of the North.

Thoughts?

Robb and Ned besmirtched their honor (Robb by not marrying a Frey and Ned by fathering a bastard - or claiming at least to have fathered him). Jon, as written by GRRM, is likely supposed to be "better" or "greater" than them both. GRRM rarely writes perfect characters, and Jon isnt either. So I dont mean to dog Robb and Ned, thats just how GRRM made them human figures. Jon, from his bastard birth understands the hypocritical nature of honor in the 7 kingdoms and he definign character quality is that he knows and will live honor to higher level than high born lords

[Lord of Tree Tower]

Jon was right to refuse it.

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

2. It'd require Jon to turn his back on the old gods.

3. Everyone in the North would just view Jon as Stannis's puppet.

I keep seeing people ask why Jon would accept Robb's will but not Stannis's offer. It's pretty clear cut.

1. Winterfell and the northern dominion were Robb's to pass on.

2. It doesn't rely on Jon forfeiting his religion.

3. The northerners would see it as legitimate.

How is it not Stannis to give? By some measure he is the rightful heir to the last rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms. He can cleanly claim to be the king, who can legitmize bastards. The king can appoint the wardens as he sees fit. I agree however that he had no right to remove someone from the night's watch, and that the north would view him as Stannis man, and would be suspect of Jon's true motives.

[GallowsKnight]

Also, I think its a bit naive to suggest that the North WOULDN't have rallied behind Jon. Alys Karstark specifically goes to Jon, a son of Ned Stark, for assistance. Jon gives Stannis, someone with little power and a foreign religion, advice on how to gather the strength of the Mountain Clans. He knows the North and its people, and they know him; a son of Eddard, a brother to Robb, their king.

Would the North fight against a son of Ned Stark given the alternatives? Rickon and Bran are dead until they return, no one wants Sansa while she is married to Tyrion, and Arya is in Braavos (though, I do think she'll return), and the one the Boltons have is a fake.

They would have most certainly rallied behind Jon had Stannis/Melisandre not insist that he burn the Godswood. If you still disagree, ask yourself, would the northern lords choose Roose Bolton/Freys over a son of Ned Stark? (Especially once Tywin is dead) Anyone who thinks they would should re-read the RW, and its aftermath.

I agree I think the North would support Jon. He looks like Ned Stark. He's a man grown and seasoned.

And they really really hate the Boltons and Freys.

[Free Northman]

The OP's argument now seems to have devolved not to who has the right to award titles in the eyes of Westerosi, but rather who has that right in the eyes of the "reader".

In that case, since the majority of the readership believes that Jon is in fact the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and rightful heir to the Throne, I would contend that it is in truth Jon's right (in the eyes of the so called reader) to award Winterfell to himself.

So once again Stannis falls short.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would contend that it is in truth Jon's right (in the eyes of the so called reader) to award Winterfell to himself.

:bowdown:

[GallowsKnight]

The OP's argument now seems to have devolved not to who has the right to award titles in the eyes of Westerosi, but rather who has that right in the eyes of the "reader".

In that case, since the majority of the readership believes that Jon is in fact the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and rightful heir to the Throne, I would contend that it is in truth Jon's right (in the eyes of the so called reader) to award Winterfell to himself.

So once again Stannis falls short.

Except there's been a dynasty change and Baratheon are the rightful King's not Targaryans. It was a Baratheon whom Ned Stark swore to. It was Stannis Baratheon he thought should be King.

And even if Targaryan's were the "rightful" rulers, Jon already negated his birthright by taking the black, just like his (?great) grand-uncle Aemon did.

So an external force could be seen as necessary to release him, be it Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Except there's been a dynasty change and Baratheon are the rightful King's not Targaryans. It was a Baratheon whom Ned Stark swore to. It was Stannis Baratheon he thought should be King.

And even if Targaryan's were the "rightful" rulers, Jon already negated his birthright by taking the black, just like his (?great) grand-uncle Aemon did.

So an external force could be seen as necessary to release him, be it Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon.

And it was Stannis Baratheon who hunkered down on Dragonstone while the capital went to shit and Ned got his head chopped off.

While I obviously agree that Jon swore his vows, surely you recognize the difference between Aemon swearing — a man who knew exactly who he was and knowingly took the black to remove himself from the succession — and Jon swearing — a man who has no clue who he really is and if he did might not be so eager to join the Watch. Not exactly the same circumstances.

As for the external force, I think Robb thought of that when he wrote his will. Whether it will be followed is another matter.

[GallowsKnight]

1. And it was Stannis Baratheon who hunkered down on Dragonstone while the capital went to shit and Ned got his head chopped off.

2. While I obviously agree that Jon swore his vows, surely you recognize the difference between Aemon swearing — a man who knew exactly who he was and knowingly took the black to remove himself from the succession — and Jon swearing — a man who has no clue who he really is and if he did might not be so eager to join the Watch. Not exactly the same circumstances.

3.As for the external force, I think Robb thought of that when he wrote his will. Whether it will be followed is another matter.

1. There have been at least 3 threads on this in the last week. The issue is a lot more complex.

2.Oh certainly think it's different, it sucks to be the princeling. But an oath is still an oath.

3. Exactly. I was just refuting Free Northman's assertion that Jon could release himself from his oaths as a Targaryan heir. By taking the oath he lost that ability (if he actually had that power which is debatable). Hence another King, be it Robb, Stannis, heck even Joffrey would be necessary to release him.

[( Bloodraven )]

Jon was right to refuse it.

1. It's not Stannis's to give.

2. It'd require Jon to turn his back on the old gods.

3. Everyone in the North would just view Jon as Stannis's puppet.

Exactly. I mean, as much as I would love to see Stannis/Jon teaming up, Jon was right to refuse the offer.

[Genevive]

Jon has his reasons for refusing the offer made by Stannis. It is known. Several raise the point that Stannis doesn't currently have the *power* (as opposed to authority) to bestow Winterfell to Jon.

Here's what I don't get. Jon is well aware of the lack of support for Stannis in the realm. He knows the crows have been returning with messages that say as much, or not returning at all. So while we are aware that Stannis doesn't have the power to grant Jon Winterfell, so must Jon have this knowledge.

Yet, Jon repeatedly, after making his decision to remain at the Wall, struggles with what could have been if he had accepted Stannis' offer. How can Jon (not us, the readers) have possibly taken Stannis' offer seriously, knowing full well his cause was faltering?

[Winterfellian]

Jon has his reasons for refusing the offer made by Stannis. It is known. Several raise the point that Stannis doesn't currently have the *power* (as opposed to authority) to bestow Winterfell to Jon.

Here's what I don't get. Jon is well aware of the lack of support for Stannis in the realm. He knows the crows have been returning with messages that say as much, or not returning at all. So while we are aware that Stannis doesn't have the power to grant Jon Winterfell, so must Jon have this knowledge.

Yet, Jon repeatedly, after making his decision to remain at the Wall, struggles with what could have been if he had accepted Stannis' offer. How can Jon (not us, the readers) have possibly taken Stannis' offer seriously, knowing full well his cause was faltering?

I don't think Jon was as privy to Stannis' affairs at the time of the offer as you seem to suggest. It didn't take a genius to know that Stannis was currently in the losing end at the time of his arrival, but remember that when the offer was made Jon was was living in relative obscurity within the NW. He had been mostly training and keeping to himself, the charges of deserter were still hanging over his head and he had even been dismissed from duties on account of the implications of following Qhorin's orders. Is only after he bacame LC that he started gathering more knowledge on which ground Stannis really stood.

Also, Jon didn't need to know all this to feel that WF wasn't Stannis to give away. While this is very subjective, I don't think that when Jon considers WF as not Stannis to give he isn't doing it based solely on legal precedents. For Jon it is clear that WF belongs to the Old Gods and the Starks and to accept it under the terms of Stannis' offer was doing WF no favor.

About Jon wondering what could have been I see it as the most natural of things. Is human nature. When divided between very different options, even after we make a choice a part of us will always wonder what if. Jon is no different.

[Mithras]

If Jon accepted this offer, he would be the puppet of Stannis in the eyes of Northren leaders. Instead, Jon acted like a true northrener (which he is). His offer to Stannis about securing the help of mountain clans and freeing deepwood motte is also a true northrener act. Also consider how he defended the wall against the wildlings and then managed to maintain a kind of peace betweeen the parties. I am sure that all the Stark loyalist leaders are eager to see Jon as their liege lord if not the KitN. Robb's will is one thing but seeing Jon as a capable and able lord is much more than that.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I think the significance of the whole Stannis offering Jon Winterfell, a name, a title and a wife, is that he refused. Jon is with the watch, forever. He swore between the Old Gods! And technically, Ned declared Joff as the rightful king. :3

[DavosSeaworthy]

It wasn't Stannis's to give, therefore Jon declined, if Robb's will turns up that may change everything.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

It wasn't Stannis's to give, therefore Jon declined, if Robb's will turns up that may change everything.

It was, as Stannis was the only alive king in the area. Jon's choice to help him, proved he acknowledged it. He just didn't want to forsake the Old Gods, and wouldn't, because he took a vow.

[Eating My Wings]

Regarding the question whether Winterfell is Stannis' to give - it doesn't really matter. The only heir left (as far as all know), Sansa, married into an enemy family (albeit unwillingly) and both Robb and Stannis removed her from the line of succession. In such situation, the suzerain should choose a new heir. After all, it's his job to manage legal issues and prevent his subjects from killing each other over heirless property.

[Draco_Dracul]

Regarding the question whether Winterfell is Stannis' to give - it doesn't really matter. The only heir left (as far as all know), Sansa, married into an enemy family (albeit unwillingly) and both Robb and Stannis removed her from the line of succession. In such situation, the suzerain should choose a new heir. After all, it's his job to manage legal issues and prevent his subjects from killing each other over heirless property.

You could argue, that Robb as the holder of Winterfell had the right to do so, but Stannis does not.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Jon refuses because he stays true to the Old Gods (and thus his vow to the Night's Watch). It is that simple. Jon never thinks about if it is Stannis's to give. Jon is reunited with Ghost and thinks how Ghost resembles a Weirwood heart tree/face. Jon then knows he should stay true to the Old Gods.

It is that simple why he refuses. As to if he accepted it, then yes, there would be problems regarding Northmen not liking that he seemingly converts to R'hollorism, is a puppet to Stannis, and does not want Northern independence.