Balon Greyjoy, the worst strategist ever?

[ejhawman]

What strategy? Balon wasn't thinking long-term. He just acted on impulse, and was lucky not to live to suffer the consequences himself.

The Ironmen will be continue to be lucky, as the Others coming down from the Wall will depopulate the North and leave them in a strong position by default (unless wights can walk across the bottom of the sea, in which case the islands are just as screwed as the greenlanders.)

[Northernmonkey]

He just acted on impulse, and was lucky not to live to suffer the consequences himself.

What consequences? The Ironborn are doing absolutely fine.

[JoeJoe]

They were doing fine because of Ramsey Snows actions. Devoid of that, they would have been kick out the north without need of rob returning north. The only reason for any success is because of Bolton treachery. the north was not devoid of strength or men to kick them out.

[shearstone]

They were doing fine because of Ramsey Snows actions. Devoid of that, they would have been kick out the north without need of rob returning north. The only reason for any success is because of Bolton treachery. the north was not devoid of strength or men to kick them out.

Exactly I was surprised this isn't mentioned enough, if Rodrik wasn't an idiot and Ramsay not so treacherous then Winterfell wouldn't have fallen and the leadership in the North would have been intact enough to begin ousting the Ironborn. Rodrik could have attacked Moat Callin from the North while Howland Reed made life living hell for the ones stuck their. The Ironborn managed to take pretty much 0 castles of any importance. Deepwood Motte isn't a real castle and Torhhens Square is so unimportant no-ones bothered to liberate it yet.

Moat Callin was the only thing they took of any importance and If it wasn't for Rodrik and Ramsay they would never had held it so the whole expedition by Balon was thoroughly pointless and both Euron and Asha recognised this. So yes Balon was a grade A idiot.

[King Aerys the Just]

Not necessarily, since the same idiot that left Winterfell completely unguarded and then got himself and his army wiped out by a Bolton who he let into his camp as a friend even though he should have known that there shouldn't be any other Boltons alive except for Roose down in the Riverlands, would have been the one leading the Northern army against the massed might of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin. He could well have caused a catastrophe down there too.

[Chaircat Meow]

They were doing fine because of Ramsey Snows actions. Devoid of that, they would have been kick out the north without need of rob returning north. The only reason for any success is because of Bolton treachery. the north was not devoid of strength or men to kick them out.

This is a very common mistake. Robb intended to return before he heard of the defeat of Rodrick. The ironborn threat was serious enough to require the return of the main army no matter the forces left in the north.

[Lord Puff Fish]

Balon fell out of the smart tree and hit every branch on the way down. To be fair to him, however, it seems that the Greyjoys are not particularly gifted in intelligence (Victarion, Theon, Aeron). Balon was a bitter old man who believed that somehow he could reverse the tides of time and go back to the good ol' days of reaving and raiding.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Balon fell out of the smart tree and hit every branch on the way down. To be fair to him, however, it seems that the Greyjoys are not particularly gifted in intelligence (Victarion, Theon, Aeron). Balon was a bitter old man who believed that somehow he could reverse the tides of time and go back to the good ol' days of reaving and raiding.

If we look bit deeper we can see it is not that clear cut. Balon was grooming Asha as his heir, and we see from the Kingsmoot and the deal she tried to broker with Victarion that the future was about increasing their land and peace rather than reaving.

If Balon only thought of reaving then they would of struck richer places than the North, but the North was attainable for a longterm strategy.

Balon, unlike his Dornish counterpart Doran,is a lot cannier than people credit him. He had patience but pounced at the best possible time which is reflected with the Ironborns success in the books. Unluckily for him was not able to have his chosen successor take over to implement his plan.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

This is a very common mistake. Robb intended to return before he heard of the defeat of Rodrick. The ironborn threat was serious enough to require the return of the main army no matter the forces left in the north.

The mistake is thinking Robbs intention to return to the North has any bearing whatsoever on Rodriks forces being quite capable of driving the Ironborn out of the North, seeing as that's what it was doing right before Ramsey betrayed them. Robbs decision to return to the North =/= the ironborn were able to withstand Rodriks forces.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Simply put, yes Balon was terrible. He could never have won and held the North long term, he would have been defeated by winter at the very least, and for certain a returning Northern force. The Westernlands or the Reach would have been a far more profitable venture for him, and Euron has the right of it.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

Uh, are people reading the same book? :D Moat Cailin was the key to the north, thus, he sent Victarion and a large force there. Knowing Victarion is a beast of a fighter, and the main force of the North is with Robb, it is brilliant tactics. Just because it goes against the Starks doesn't make it stupid. For one, they could wrap 'tentacles' around the North and squeeze, while Robb lost men in the south. Also, Balon sent letters out to the throne and such, for alliances. If the Lannisters backed Balon; and Tywin would've married Cersei to Theon / Balon or Victarion, then yes... it was a pretty solid plan.

Balon dying, really, was the only reason the plan failed. Because the Kingsmoot made Victarion and a lot of strong warriors head back to Pyke.

[Frey Pie]

Had he allied with Robb, it's very likely that he would have suffered a lot worse at the hands of the Lannisters. Like I said, why take the risk? Why criticise Balon when his plan worked perfectly He got his revenge against the Starks, got a bit of loot and didn't have to worry about Tywin. He did well.

Huh?? How so? It's quite likely that had Balon not taken part of the north, Robb would have been locked in battle with Tywin still. At best the Tyrells stay neutral and wait for the winner of the Tywin Stannis battle to come to them. At worst Balon loses not a few men attacking the West, as ya know, Robbs did the hard work for him. Tywin cannot retaliate with KL under attack and around 30000 of Robbs soldiers between them.

In any case Balon should have say on his hands and demanded land for helping the winner at the end. Te northern plan was the worst of the lot though. If your not out to win, don't play

[Frey Pie]

This is a very common mistake. Robb intended to return before he heard of the defeat of Rodrick. The ironborn threat was serious enough to require the return of the main army no matter the forces left in the north.

I believe Robb would have to return north to set Winterfell right and burry his heir, no matter had their been not an ironborn solider left up there

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Simply put, yes Balon was terrible. He could never have won and held the North long term, he would have been defeated by winter at the very least, and for certain a returning Northern force. The Westernlands or the Reach would have been a far more profitable venture for him, and Euron has the right of it.

Asha and Balon were not after short term profit but long term gains. The West Coast of the North was their aim and they got it. Robb and his military is locked out of the North while declaring independence rules out help from the Iron Throne.

To say it was not sustainable ignores that House Hoare once ruled the Northern East coast or that the area of White Harbor was once conquered by pirates from the Stepstones.

[Draco_Dracul]

The fact that the Ironborn now hold neither say that it wasn't that sustainable.

[Starfell]

Uh, are people reading the same book? :D Moat Cailin was the key to the north, thus, he sent Victarion and a large force there. Knowing Victarion is a beast of a fighter, and the main force of the North is with Robb, it is brilliant tactics. Just because it goes against the Starks doesn't make it stupid. For one, they could wrap 'tentacles' around the North and squeeze, while Robb lost men in the south. Also, Balon sent letters out to the throne and such, for alliances. If the Lannisters backed Balon; and Tywin would've married Cersei to Theon / Balon or Victarion, then yes... it was a pretty solid plan.

Balon dying, really, was the only reason the plan failed. Because the Kingsmoot made Victarion and a lot of strong warriors head back to Pyke.

Yes, if the Lannisters had backed Balon it was a solid plan. If not then it was national suicide.

Do you not think that he should have found out whether Tywin "Rains of Castamere" Lannister was amenable to giving away half of the Kingdom before he effectively declared war on Tywin's grandson by declaring independence?

And even if we ignore the inevitable day when the IT decides to bring the Ironborn to heel and assume that Tywin gets the letter on Opposites Day, the only day when Tywin is forgiving of people who rebel against him, the idea that Balon can conquer and hold the North is insane (and he makes it quite clear that his plan is to conquer and hold the place). The logistics alone make it nigh impossible, can the IB really power project to Last Hearth and White Harbour just as easily as Deepwood? How about both at the same time if they rose up in rebellion? A forced march across a Kingdom that's probably larger than Brazil, possibly dogged all the way by hostile locals, in Winter? We've seen the casualties Stannis is taking and he has Northern backing, imagine being an invader

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The fact that the Ironborn now hold neither say that it wasn't that sustainable.

er, no it doesn't. They left on their own free will after a change in leadership.

[Sansa_Stark]

For all the hate on Balon. Its hilarious to know that he is the king who cared he most for his subjects. Ironborn 4 life.

[jongtu]

Strategically it was much better to attack the North rather than the Westerlands my friend

The Westerlands are smallenr but more dense in population. The Ironborn are not huge in number themselves. The Westerlads would be able to mobilise much quicker to repel the invasion.

Why would Balon attack a nation with a fleet? That just makes his job harder.

They were able to take Moat Caitlyn which allowed them to hold the North from the Northern forces in the south

It was a war of conquest not of gold. The wanted the coastal provinces which is where they are their strongest. The North has quite a coast. Eventually Balom would have lost the North due to the RR. However hr had no chance of attacking the Westerlands.

Balon's plans may have worked if he struck a deal with the Lannisters allowing him to keep the lands he conquered.

[Chaircat Meow]

The mistake is thinking Robbs intention to return to the North has any bearing whatsoever on Rodriks forces being quite capable of driving the Ironborn out of the North, seeing as that's what it was doing right before Ramsey betrayed them. Robbs decision to return to the North =/= the ironborn were able to withstand Rodriks forces.

The fact Robb wanted to return knowing Rodrick was in the field is all the proof you need the ironborn invasion could only be dealt with by the main army, otherwise there was no reason to return.

Rodrick, of course, didn't go to attack Vic at Moat Cailin, and didn't necessarily even know about that. He was dealing with a small group of raiders (poorly). So there is nothing to indicate he was thought capable of dealing with the whole invasion.