Varys's History and Motives: The Black Dragon's Revenge

[Fire Eater]

This thread looks at bits and pieces to find the truth behind Varys and his intentions.

When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre.

"The Lord Varys was born a slave in Lys, did you know?"

While Illyrio did state that the male line of House Blackfyre was extinct, he says nothing of the female line of House Blackfyre, through which Varys and possibly his sister, Serra, descend. Varys may state he is from Myr where he worked on a mummers's ship, but while he was sold to a mummers' ship from Myr, he was originally from Lys. Varys was later introduced to a sorcerer.

With a long hooked blade, he sliced me [Varys] root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched the him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

Sam Stoop's wife says she [Lady Rohanne Webber] sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts.

This is Egg talking about Lady Webber, whose sigil is a spider. Varys is referred to as the Spider, and his castration was in a way, selling his babes unborn with the seven hells imagery tied to the burning brazier. I think Varys actually wasn't castrated by force but sold his manhood and ability to reproduce as the price to pay for him to learn the black arts of sorcery.

The sorcerer could have been Varys's mentor. His mentor might have been castrated as well to pay the price for his power, and if he was a eunuch, he had no children for him to pass down his knowledge so he needed to find an apprentice. The FM need to sacrifice everything to learn their arts according to the KM while Melisandre notes that her magic comes at high costs. The magic of greenseers comes at a cost, they must stay in a weirwood throne for the rest of their days, and likely give up hope of finding spouses and fathering children. The point being that the obtaining of magical power always comes at a cost.

The same might also be true for Valyrian wizards, the likely fire counterparts to the ice of greenseers, might have had to pay a similar price for their power. They had to sacrifice their ability to reproduce and their unborn generations to obtain such power. It is possible that like five dragons had survived the Doom, possibly a wizard also survived the Doom and passed his craft down through the generations from master to apprentice like the Sith in Star Wars since Darth Bane.

Later, Varys met Illyrio and grew rich from taking back from thieves to the owners for a price, and got into the business of espionage with his little birds.

Serra, I found her in a Lysene pillow house

a well-thumbed tome about the erotic adventures of a young slave girl in a Lysene pillow house, and the fourth and final volume of The Life of Triarch Belicho, a famous Volantene patriot whose unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants.

He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though.

This is Cersei thinking about Aurane Waters's resemblance to Rhaegar. Another person compared to Rhaegar is Aegon by Connington, and Aegon's mother may have been Serra. While Varys was sold to a mummers' troupe, Serra was sold to a pillow house. Varys then had Illyrio set aside his first wife for Serra out of plan they concocted.

The Plan and Implementation

The Blackfyres five times failed to bring down House Targaryen. I think the plan Varys came up with was a new method: instead of trying to take down House Targaryen from the outside, they should take it down from the inside, or working from the shadows. I think it is possible, and this may be a little crackpot, that Varys even had something to do with the tragedy of Summerhall as the only heirs of House Targaryen left afterward were Jaehaerys II as king who was weak and sickly, with his only son, Aerys, who was known to have a little madness. The War of the Ninepenny Kings began the same year, and I think the plan was for Varys to kill off the Targaryens before Maelys invaded.

I think it is even possible Jaehaerys II was poisoned as retribution for Maelys's death as Jaehaerys II died the same year as Maelys. He was described as weak and sickly and it would have come to no surprise if he died of a purported illness or in his sleep.

Varys made sure Aerys heard about his talents, and have Varys brought to KL. Varys added wildfire to the brazier in fueling Aerys's paranoia. When the rebellion finally came, Varys convinced Aerys to open the gates in a way that made it look he was telling Aerys otherwise, or in other words reverse psychology such as when Cersei tried to have Robert go into the melee by telling him no.

After the sack of KL, Illyrio had his and Serra's son, sent to Connington under the guise of the boy being Rhaegar's son. Meanwhile, the known remaining heirs to House Targaryen: Viserys and Daenerys, were to be dispatched so as to tie up any loose ends. Illyrio himself said that he didn't expect Dany to survive long among the Dothraki.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre.

I always thought the specific wording here is key evidence to Young Griff being a Blackfyre, I mean, why would GRRM not just write "it was the end of House Blackfyre"?

... Varys was later introduced to a sorcerer.

With a long hooked blade, he sliced me [Varys] root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched the him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

Sam Stoop's wife says she [Lady Rohanne Webber] sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts.

This is Egg talking about Lady Webber, whose sigil is a spider. Varys is referred to as the Spider, and his castration was in a way, selling his babes unborn with the seven hells imagery tied to the burning brazier. Varys actually wasn't castrated by force but sold his manhood and ability to reproduce as the price to pay for him to learn the black arts of sorcery.

The sorcerer was likely Varys's mentor. His mentor might have been castrated as well to pay the price for his power, and if he was a eunuch, he had no children for him to pass down his knowledge so he needed to find an apprentice. The magic of greenseers comes at a cost, they must stay in a weirwood throne for the rest of their days, and likely give up hope of finding spouses and fathering children. The same might also be true for Valyrian wizards, the likely fire counterparts to the ice of greenseers, likely had to pay a similar price for their power. They had to sacrifice their ability to reproduce and their unborn generations to obtain such power. It is possible that like five dragons had survived the Doom, possibly a wizard also survived the Doom and passed his craft down through the generations from master to apprentice like the Sith in Star Wars since Darth Bane.

I know the show is not book canon, but based on the show this seems unlikely.

I love the Lady Webber-"babes unborn"-castration connection though.

The Plan and Implementation

The Blackfyres five times failed to bring down House Targaryen. The plan Varys came up with was new method: instead of trying to take down House Targaryen from the outside, they should take it down from the inside, or have the Targaryens overthrown in a rebellion. I think it is also possible, and this may be a little crackpot, that Varys even had something to do with the tragedy of Summerhall as the only heirs left afterward were Jaehaerys II as king who was weak and sickly, with his only son, Aerys, who was known to have a little madness. I think it is even possible Jaehaerys II was poisoned so his mad son would take the IT.

Varys made sure Aerys heard about his talents, and have Varys brought to KL. Varys added wildfire to the brazier in fueling Aerys's paranoia. When the rebellion finally came, Varys convinced Aerys to open the gates in a way that made it look he was telling Aerys otherwise, or in other words reverse psychology such as when Cersei tried to have Robert go into the melee by telling him no.

I don't think Varys is so all-powerful to have caused Summerhall (which I feel like Varys would be too young for) or even Aerys's madness and Robert's Rebellion and how the Sack of King's Landing went down.

Though yes, it is an "inside job", Varys made sure Aerys would bring him to Kings Landing, and popular speculation is that Varys tried convincing Aerys that Rheagar would overthrow him - which might have lead to the weakening of the Targaryns over the next 16 or so years until Young Griff would probably just have an open rebellion to claim the throne. However, with the way the Sack of KL went down, Varys and Illyrio probably compromised by playing Young Griff off as Aegon.

[Fire Eater]

I always thought the specific wording here is key evidence to Young Griff being a Blackfyre, I mean, why would GRRM not just write "it was the end of House Blackfyre"?

I know the show is not book canon, but based on the show this seems unlikely.

How so? Please be specific, otherwise saying that it is unlikely because it didn't happen in the show could be considered an invalid argument, no offense, as you yourself have stated that the show is not book canon.

I don't think Varys is so all-powerful to have caused Summerhall (which I feel like Varys would be too young for) or even Aerys's madness and Robert's Rebellion and how the Sack of King's Landing went down.

Though yes, it is an "inside job", Varys made sure Aerys would bring him to Kings Landing, and popular speculation is that Varys tried convincing Aerys that Rheagar would overthrow him - which might have lead to the weakening of the Targaryns over the next 16 or so years until Young Griff would probably just have an open rebellion to claim the throne. However, with the way the Sack of KL went down, Varys and Illyrio probably compromised by playing Young Griff off as Aegon.

I never said Varys was responsible for Aerys's madness. The reason I thought of Summerhall is that it is said that sorcery was involved, and it left House Targaryen in a weakened state. Varys is likely around to be as old as Illyrio if they knew each other in their teens, and I think he could have been old enough to instigate what happened at Summerhall. I think Varys expected rebellion that would result in the deaths of most of House Targaryen, but whether it would be RR, I don't know.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

How so? Please be specific, otherwise saying that it is unlikely because it didn't happen in the show could be considered an invalid argument, no offense, as you yourself have stated that the show is not book canon.

I never said Varys was responsible for Aerys's madness. The reason I thought of Summerhall is that is is said that sorcery was involved, and it left House Targaryen in a weakened state. I think Varys expected rebellion that would result in the deaths

In the show, Varys tells Tyrion about his background and has his speech about getting revenge, which ends with him opening up a crate to reveal the sorcerer in it, in a really bad condition. However, now thinking about it, this could just be the show having a really awesome scene (probably my favorite), which serves to reveal Varys background and show his darker side.

(Are we allowed to link to GoT scenes on youtube?)

Anyway, yes, show-canon is not book-canon so this shouldn't really be used as evidence against your theory, sorry.

Edit: As to Summerhall, I just don't buy that Varys is that old. (Mel seems to be very experienced with magic and she needs a ruby to glamour herself as young).

[Fire Eater]

In the show, Varys tells Tyrion about his background and has his speech about getting revenge, which ends with him opening up a crate to reveal the sorcerer in it, in a really bad condition. However, now thinking about it, this could just be the show having a really awesome scene (probably my favorite), which serves to reveal Varys background and show his darker side.

(Are we allowed to link to GoT scenes on youtube?)

Anyway, yes, show-canon is not book-canon so this shouldn't really be used as evidence against your theory, sorry.

No worries, and no need to apologize.

I think Varys gave his mentor the same treatment Varamyr Sixskins gave his mentor, Haggon. Haggon raised and taught Varamyr, but that didn't stop Varamyr from killing him, and I think Varys might be the same in that aspect.

[Ramsay B.]

That is interesting in linking Summerhall and Varys, I never thought of that. I wish we can know the full details into how Aerys heard of Varys, exactly. The story of his castration has always been fishy and his supposed hate of magic but I do still believe his story...although, it would be more interesting if he did make some kind of sacrifice to the black arts or something similar. Either way, great post.

[Dinosoares]

Varys wouldn't have been born during the Summerhall tragedy. That happened like 80ish years before the original plot timeline; isn't Varys like mid 30's to 40's in the original timeline?

Although, I do think Varys is a blackfyre.. I think that his manhood was cut off because the sorcerer wanted to use kingsblood, hence why he bought a mummer boy (Varys) from a troupe when he could've just picked any slave or a child off the street.

I also feel that Varys wants to see his bloodline succeed as he could not father his own children. He is bald like egg to hide his silver hair.

He (and Illyrio) sent dany to the dothraki because once she was married she would stay in the dosh khaleen in vaes dothrak. And eventually Viserys being Viserys would get himself killed. I cannot account for why Illyrio gave Dany the eggs other than the fact that he wanted them to be stolen or that she would try and hatch them and die in the attempt like Egg did and others before him.

Varys knows about the secret passes in the Red Keep because he is a Blackfyre obviously with ancestors who were Targaryens who knew.

He's been slowly pushing for the unraveling of the Baratheon hold on the Iron Throne ever since Aegon Blackfyre was conceived. Probably using his little birds to convince Aerys II certain things to make him distrust people.

The Blackfyre sword is probably in one of those chests that Illyrio has, and is saving it for Aegon. Also the boy clothes he gives to Tyrion has got to be young aegon's when he was growing up.

And I believe he is the perfumed seneschal that dany is warned about.. maybe, maybe not.. could just be the ship moqorro comes on which roughly translates to Stinky Seneschal or w/e. But yeah that's why I think Varys is a BF.

[Dinosoares]

Egg died in 259 AL doesn't the series start off in like 299AL? That would mean Varys would (assuming 16 is old enough to plot the murder of the royal family) have to at least be 66 yrs old..

Sorry about my last messy post but I'm posting over a cellphone.

[Fire Eater]

Varys wouldn't have been born during the Summerhall tragedy. That happened like 80ish years before the original plot timeline; isn't Varys like mid 30's to 40's in the original timeline? Although, I do think Varys is a blackfyre..

The tragedy of Summerhall was the same day Rhaegar was born in 259 AL, I don't think Rhaegar was described as old anywhere in the text. The main series started 298 AL, or 39 years after.

Egg died in 259 AL doesn't the series start off in like 299AL? That would mean Varys would (assuming 16 is old enough to plot the murder of the royal family) have to at least be 66 yrs old.. Sorry about my last messy post but I'm posting over a cellphone.

Illyrio said he and Varys knew each other when they were young, so I would imagine Varys to be as old as Illyrio.

[Mayura]

Hmm I am not convinced about the "the sorcerer was Varys's mentor" bit...

I do think there really was a big event that happened in Varys's life and that made hime decide to live and to compromise himself if needed to prove to the world that he was not just an orphan kid destined to be sold and used and then die at the will of other men. And I think that event in particular was the castration by the sorcerer. (castration or something else, as Varys seems to have a deep voice sometimes).

So I believe that Varys is indeed a Blackfyre (I believe he says from the beginning he is Lyseni, however, I don't remember him pretending he is from Myr) offspring and that his will for revenge took root the day he was used by the sorcerer and then left to die.

This also explains part of what Varys says: I think Varys holds the current Westerosi regime of blood lines and so on responsible for the crap destiny of so many children (among which the Blackfyre offsprings which are often seen in Lys and sold as slave - we know a lot of Lyseni whores have the Valyrian look, some might be Blackfyre offsprings) and he indeed wishes to overturn the regime and to put on the throne someone who was raised to be a King and to listen to the small folk, not someone who was brought up in privilege and who was destined to be a king not because of his competences but just because of blood. In other words, I genuinely think Varys wants revenge as well as a more noble thing: he'd like the children to stop suffering for being who they are (bastards, son of Lord, smallfolk etc) and for the mistakes of their parents. I think this is partly evidenced by several occurrences in the book:

- Tyrion notes that children always pay the debts of their parents very early in the books serie.

- Varys admits to being the one who looked after Gendry and who made sure Gendry safely left the city as he knew Cersei would want him dead following Robert's death.

- He can assume he would have that will in him from being a Blackfyre offspring and being sold and mistreated for the simple reason that his family was exiled.

I am not saying he is "good guy Varys", but I think he is convinced he is doing all this for a nobler cause than just revenge. He mentionned several times he is acting "for the realm", "for peace", "for the children" and that Aegon has been shaped to be the best kind possible and to understand the smallfolk.

(I know that, on the other hand, Varys uses tiny mute child assassins but...)

[Lost Melnibonean]

@Fire Eater: Why do you assume Varys is a descendant of Daemon? Do you believe Varys was successful in becoming a sorcerer? How does the Belichio book relate? Varys is of an age with Illyrio, no? Illyrio still has blond hair about his face and chest with no metiom of gray. Unless he dies it, he still has to under 50, no? Since Summerhall was about 40 years before the events in Game, I don't see how Varys could have been involved in that (but I don't think this goes to the heart of your argument).

[FloridaAg]

Not sure what the reference to Lady Webber has to do with this as it is totally clear that she did not in fact sell her babies or have anything to do with dark arts.

[Fire Eater]

@Fire Eater: Why do you assume Varys is a descendant of Daemon? Do you believe Varys was successful in becoming a sorcerer? How does the Belichio book relate? Varys is of an age with Illyrio, no? Illyrio still has blond hair about his face and chest with no metiom of gray. Unless he dies it, he still has to under 50, no? Since Summerhall was about 40 years before the events in Game, I don't see how Varys could have been involved in that (but I don't think this goes to the heart of your argument).

Varys is described as "bald as an Egg" a reference to Egg who shaved his head to hide his silver-gold hair and Targaryen identity. Why else would Varys be interested in restoring House Blackfyre? The Belichio story when taken with the tales of the girl in a pillow house, serves as foreshadowing for Aegon, the son of a Lysene pillow girl who will have an unbroken succession of victories and conquests given his opponents are Mace Tyrell and Cersei until Tyrion, who is described as a giant by Aemon, arrives with Dany to start the Dance of Dragons 2.0.

See my previous post, Summerhall was 39 years before the events of AGoT. Varys might have been young, but Robb was able to plan strategy and win battles at 15.

Not sure what the reference to Lady Webber has to do with this as it is totally clear that she did not in fact sell her babies or have anything to do with dark arts.

I know that, no more than Robb made it clear that Tywin couldn't be caught with his breeches down, but Tyrion disproved that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Varys is described as "bald as an Egg" a reference to Egg who shaved his head to hide his silver-gold hair and Targaryen identity. Why else would Varys be interested in restoring House Blackfyre? The Belichio story when takne with the tales of the girl in a pillow house, serve sas foreshadowing for Aegon, the son of a Lysene pillow girl who will have an unbroken succession of victories and conquests given his opponents are Mace Tyrell and Cersei until Tyrion, who is described as a giant by Aemon, arrives with Dany to start the Dance of Dragons 2.0.

See my previous post, Summerhall was 29 years before the events of AGoT. Varys might have been young, but Robb was able to plan strategy and win battles at 15.

I know that, no more than Robb made it clear that Tywin couldn't be caught with his breeches down, but Tyrion disproved that.

I think the hints at Illyrio being Daemon's descendant are stronger. We're led to believe Aegon is the heir in part by his physical appearance, and we're led to believe Aegon is Illyrio's son in part by physical appearance. And Illyrio, like Aegon IV was lithe then fat. If Illyrio is the BF and Varys is Illyrio's agent that explains motive for both characters.

The Belicho foreshadowing is strong. I agree with that conclusion. But I don't think Serra is a BF. I read your early defense of Varys & Summerhall. As you noted yourself that part may be crackpot.

Nice post.

[Fire Eater]

I think the hints at Illyrio being Daemon's descendant are stronger. We're led to believe Aegon is the heir in part by his physical appearance, and we're led to believe Aegon is Illyrio's son in part by physical appearance. And Illyrio, like Aegon IV was lithe then fat. If Illyrio is the BF and Varys is Illyrio's agent that explains motive for both characters.

The Belicho foreshadowing is strong. I agree with that conclusion. But I don't think Serra is a BF. I read your early defense of Varys & Summerhall. As you noted yourself that part may be crackpot.

Nice post.

Thank you.

I don't think Illyrio is a Blackfyre. If we follow the War of the Roses influence, Henry VII, who displayed the red dragon dragon of the ancient Welsh king he claimed descent from to get the support of Wales, was descended from House Lancaster through a bastard of that house through his mother's side. Aegon is displaying the red dragon and proclaiming his Dornish ancestry to win the support of Dorne, the geopolitical parallel to Wales, and I think his mother was descended from Daemon Blackfyre, a bastard of House Targaryen as everyone knows.

[Ser Leftwich]

One small thing, it was 39 years between start of the books and Summerhall, not 29 years.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

Well, the Targ line is pretty much extinct so the Blackfyre's could come home. I like the idea of Aegon being a Blackfyre and don't see it as a black mark against him. I lost the post! I think they wanted to marry Dany to him to reunite the Targ / Blackfyre houses back into one. ( Hopefully this will happen. ) And like 300 years ago, the Targs will come to Westeros and destroy.

I also believe Aegon will wield Blackfyre, the sword.

[Arya kiddin']

Sam Stoop's wife says she [Lady Rohanne Webber] sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts.

This is Egg talking about Lady Webber, whose sigil is a spider. Varys is referred to as the Spider, and his castration was in a way, selling his babes unborn with the seven hells imagery tied to the burning brazier. Varys actually wasn't castrated by force but sold his manhood and ability to reproduce as the price to pay for him to learn the black arts of sorcery.

Ok I have a lingering doubt on this one. Was it ever proved in the text that Lady Rohanne actually did this? Because Sam Stoop's wife might just be causing silly rumours and rumours should not be used for foreshadowing in my opinion. :(

[Dorian Martell]

The one issue with the feagon as a BF I have is that he was raised as a targ, by a man who seemed to have more than a bromance with aegon's father. This would preclude any "restoration" of the BF line since everywhere that matters except for dorne, the line dies with the last male, who was run through by Barristan the Bold. ALso, I doubt that a man with as much focus and determination as JonCon would not recognize a fake. I mean, if he liked fapping to the image of Rhegar, his best friend, he would probably notice that a fake aegon looked nothing like Rhegar or Elia.

[Fat King Robert]

The one issue with the feagon as a BF I have is that he was raised as a targ, by a man who seemed to have more than a bromance with aegon's father. This would preclude any "restoration" of the BF line since everywhere that matters except for dorne, the line dies with the last male, who was run through by Barristan the Bold. ALso, I doubt that a man with as much focus and determination as JonCon would not recognize a fake. I mean, if he liked fapping to the image of Rhegar, his best friend, he would probably notice that a fake aegon looked nothing like Rhegar or Elia.

Though we have Cersei who thinks Aurane Waters looks like prince Rhaegar, a woman who had a crush on said prince. Regarding JonCon, perhaps it's his "focus and determination" as well as his love for Rhaegar that makes him blind.

Besides, I'm sure you know that if you don't look EXACTLY like you sire, doesn't mean you aren't his son.