R+L = J v 64

[MtnLion]

I was trying to say that your comment about 'judging Rhaegar's actions with such little data is wrong' applies to the events as well. We are judging/have our own opinion about every character on the data we've got. That was a stupid act from the married prince (or was it planned?), even Dany at her 14-15 (do not know exactly) understands that idea of Daario taking her on the point of a sword is stupid. The logic explanation is that he was certain about prophecy (again).

You are entitled to your perspective, but you will not find much in the way of support. We all do stupid things for love, since we seem to put love above logic. In very many places it is revealed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Being dutiful with Elia, and the Aegon naming scene do not seem to be harsh or distant on Rhaegar's part until he says "There must be one more."

[Anath]

No, anybody who already casts judgement over Rhaegar when we don't have many of the details yet and when nobody in the story save Robert seems to hate him probably hates him. I'm more than ready to admit that Rhaegar probably wasn't a loving husband to Elia, but we simply do not know enogh yet to cast a final judgement.

Yes, I see that, but that never was my point, and I'd love to stop bickering about this pointless tangent for now. It won't lead anywhere and bears no relation to the question originally asked.

Since when is it something new to form an opinion of the character based on the details we know? We know that Rhaegar didn't look too interested in the child as a chid, all he spoke about was Aegon's kingship and prophecy. We know that at their last meeting, Rhaegar basically informed Jaime that he was a glorified hostage but we don;t see him asking Jaime to take care of Elia and the children.

Why should Rhaegar be a loving husband to Elia? He did not love her. For all things I dislike about him, not being loving is not one of them. This is not something that needs to be admitted. It just was. It did not depend on him. Humiliating her and leaving her to her mad father in-law's care to be the laughingstock of the court, however, was something that entirely depended on him.

[Ygrain]

Since when is it something new to form an opinion of the character based on the details we know? We know that Rhaegar didn't look too interested in the child as a chid, all he spoke about was Aegon's kingship and prophecy. We know that at their last meeting, Rhaegar basically informed Jaime that he was a glorified hostage but we don;t see him asking Jaime to take care of Elia and the children.

Why should Rhaegar be a loving husband to Elia? He did not love her. For all things I dislike about him, not being loving is not one of them. This is not something that needs to be admitted. It just was. It did not depend on him. Humiliating her and leaving her to her mad father in-law's care to be the laughingstock of the court, however, was something that entirely depended on him.

But when in the weirwood dream Rhaegar's apparition reproaches Jaime for not protecting Elia and the children, he says “I left my wife and children in your hands.” and Jaime doesn't protest, only defends himself that he didn't expect Tywin to harm them, hence he was tasked with taking care of them.

I am not sure if the HotU vision should be taken as evidence for any fatherly affection, or lack thereof, as it's purpose was to convey an entirely different piece information. Frankly, I can't even imagine how a display of emotions would fit, and if a pseudo-medieval nobleman could even be expected to display them.

[Anath]

It was a dream, not a memory. I think it conveys Jaime's feeling of guilt more than anything else. It would be normal for him to feel guilty before Elia's husband, the children's father. And in their last meeting for which we have a distinct memory Jaime's purpose is made clear: to soothe Aerys' fears, not protect Elia and the children.

I don't have a problem with the HotU vision. I don't think Rhaegar had much feelings for anyone else than Lyanna but I have no problem with him not having those. And while its purpose was to convey a certain information, it does so in a very specific way: Elia and Aegon on one side, she nursing him - a very motherly thing, conveying that she was a mother - and Rhaegar on the other. Mother and child to one side, father to the other.

I'll always point it out when someone gets the scene wrong, though, because to me, that gives Rhaegar undeserved credit as a loving and interested father when in fact, the scene shows nothing like this. In fact, that was the scene that, at second reading, made me Rhaegar un-fan (yes, I was quite the Rhaegar lover once). Here, he frankly scared me with his single-mindedness.

[Ygrain]

It was a dream, not a memory. I think it conveys Jaime's feeling of guilt more than anything else. It would be normal for him to feel guilty before Elia's husband, the children's father. And in their last meeting for which we have a distinct memory Jaime's purpose is made clear: to soothe Aerys' fears, not protect Elia and the children.

And why does he feel guilty? Because it was his task to protect them. While it had to be specifically him to be left behind to soothe Aerys, it doesn't mean in the least that he wasn't responsible for Elia, as well. And, BTW, Rhaegar didn't even have to remind him to take care of Elia, because it was a part of Jaime's sworn duty.

I don't have a problem with the HotU vision. I don't think Rhaegar had much feelings for anyone else than Lyanna but I have no problem with him not having those. And while its purpose was to convey a certain information, it does so in a very specific way: Elia and Aegon on one side, she nursing him - a very motherly thing, conveying that she was a mother - and Rhaegar on the other. Mother and child to one side, father to the other.

And where would you have him seated? By her side while she was breastfeeding? I don't recall my own husband seated like that while I was breastfeeding, and we did marry for love, not duty. I think you are reading into the scene something that isn't there.

- Looking at the quote, I don't even see there the opposition that you present. It seems like a normal situation that while the woman is nursing, the man is doing something else. While nursing may be perceived as an intimacy between the mother and child, it is, first and foremost, feeding, and especially with a newborn, one spends hours on it.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings.

I'll always point it out when someone gets the scene wrong, though, because to me, that gives Rhaegar undeserved credit as a loving and interested father when in fact, the scene shows nothing like this. In fact, that was the scene that, at second reading, made me Rhaegar un-fan (yes, I was quite the Rhaegar lover once). Here, he frankly scared me with his single-mindedness.

Here we are in agreement - the scene doesn't show any particular emotional engagement. It doesn't provide sufficient basis to judge one way or the other.

[Anath]

Yes, it was Jaime's duty to protect them. Rhaegar obviously didn't feel the need to ask him specifically - that was my point. After Aerys burning lords and Hands, after keeping Elia and the children as hostages, as Lewyn Martell was made aware but Rhaegar either missed or didn't care this much - he didn't ask Jaime to do anything special for his family. Duty would suffice for them. Since Rhaegar's entire marital life was based on duty, it should be expected, I guess.

I never mentioned "seating". I meant the moment when Elia asked him to do for Aegon something that he loves doing - write a song. Rhaegar flat-out refused because the child already had a song - a prophetic one, obviously. He refused to do something that to him, would be intimate and loving and well, something of him to give. Then, he said the line about the third head - I really, really hope he was talking to Dany and not his wife, - turned his back on them and went to his harp and his own little world.

And since the scene doesn't show any particular emotional engagement, I correct each time I see it rewritten in a way that makes someone more emotionally engaged that they are. By the way, I am not sold on the idea that this scene is a proof that Rhaegar convinced Elia about the prophecy.

[Ygrain]

Yes, it was Jaime's duty to protect them. Rhaegar obviously didn't feel the need to ask him specifically - that was my point. After Aerys burning lords and Hands, after keeping Elia and the children as hostages, as Lewyn Martell was made aware but Rhaegar either missed or didn't care this much - he didn't ask Jaime to do anything special for his family. Duty would suffice for them. Since Rhaegar's entire marital life was based on duty, it should be expected, I guess.

I fail to see what special Jaime might have done for Rhaegar's family when he was already sworn to die for them if necessary, or what he might have done to protect them from Aerys as you seem to imply, against whose authority neither he nor Rhaegar himself couldn't do a thing at this stage.

Besides, Mad or not, Aerys never really harmed Elia and kids, unlike the perfectly sane Tywin. Somehow, Jaime never expected his ruthless father to be quite so ruthless. Why should Rhaegar expect his own dad to do that? - But we have already been through this, right?

I never mentioned "seating". I meant the moment when Elia asked him to do for Aegon something that he loves doing - write a song. Rhaegar flat-out refused because the child already had a song - a prophetic one, obviously. He refused to do something that to him, would be intimate and loving and well, something of him to give. Then, he said the line about the third head - I really, really hope he was talking to Dany and not his wife, - turned his back on them and went to his harp and his own little world.

"Mother and child to one side, father to the other." Seated, standing or lying doesn't really matter. And sorry but your reading of the scene is awfully biased. You don't know, can't know from this short scene why he said what he did, what made him turn away (if he had any specific reason at all), but you decide that it should be interpreted negatively.

And since the scene doesn't show any particular emotional engagement, I correct each time I see it rewritten in a way that makes someone more emotionally engaged that they are. By the way, I am not sold on the idea that this scene is a proof that Rhaegar convinced Elia about the prophecy.

She may not be convinced but he wouldn't say it like that if she didn't have an idea what he was talking about.

[Anath]

I don't see what special Jaime could have done for Rhaegar's family either. Yet when I was little and my father or some of his sailor mates left for months, usually they asked each other to check on each other's families, at least. The political and economic situation here wasn't exactly rosy. Not that they could have done this much but the men at least cared enough to ask and the others did actually check. They were doing what they could to provide that their families would not be in trouble. Of course, all those cases were in families where the partners chose each other.

We've been through this and I haven't changed my stance. You seem to have modified yours somewhat - in the beginning, it was "Aerys was not mad until Brandon came to King's Landing". Now, it's "Mad or not, Aerys never harmed Elia". And I absolutely love how poor Rhaegar was quite able to defy Aerys' authority in running away with Lyanna but when it came to protecting his family - oh, he could do nothing. After all, who was he? Only the man who convinced his father to trust him with his army. Davos Seaworth could have taught him how such things were done.

And while I don't know what made Rhaegar say the famous line or turn away, I'd love to know how you know Elia had an idea what Rhaegar was talking about since the scene is so short.

[Ygrain]

I don't see what special Jaime could have done for Rhaegar's family either. Yet when I was little and my father or some of his sailor mates left for months, usually they asked each other to check on each other's families, at least. The political and economic situation here wasn't exactly rosy. Not that they could have done this much but the men at least cared enough to ask and the others did actually check. They were doing what they could to provide that their families would not be in trouble. Of course, all those cases were in families where the partners chose each other.

Then you're projecting your personal situation and expectations into ASOIAF.

We've been through this and I haven't changed my stance. You seem to have modified yours somewhat - in the beginning, it was "Aerys was not mad until Brandon came to King's Landing". Now, it's "Mad or not, Aerys never harmed Elia". And I absolutely love how poor Rhaegar was quite able to defy Aerys' authority in running away with Lyanna but when it came to protecting his family - oh, he could do nothing. After all, who was he? Only the man who convinced his father to trust him with his army. Davos Seaworth could have taught him how such things were done.

There seems to be a misconception on your part, not to mention that you're mixing situations prior the Rebellion and towards its end, when Aerys' shape severely deteriorated.

The rest of this paragraph are strawmen comparing entirely different situations just for the sake of being contrary and I am not going to adress these.

And while I don't know what made Rhaegar say the famous line or turn away, I'd love to know how you know Elia had an idea what Rhaegar was talking about since the scene is so short.

Him bringing it up in the first place suggests something - a trust in Elia, and if he trusted her once, it is not unreasonable to expect that this is not the first time he spoke about it with her, especially as he thought Aegon a PTWP since his conception.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, it was Jaime's duty to protect them. Rhaegar obviously didn't feel the need to ask him specifically - that was my point. After Aerys burning lords and Hands, after keeping Elia and the children as hostages, as Lewyn Martell was made aware but Rhaegar either missed or didn't care this much - he didn't ask Jaime to do anything special for his family. Duty would suffice for them. Since Rhaegar's entire marital life was based on duty, it should be expected, I guess.

I never mentioned "seating". I meant the moment when Elia asked him to do for Aegon something that he loves doing - write a song. Rhaegar flat-out refused because the child already had a song - a prophetic one, obviously. He refused to do something that to him, would be intimate and loving and well, something of him to give. Then, he said the line about the third head - I really, really hope he was talking to Dany and not his wife, - turned his back on them and went to his harp and his own little world.

And since the scene doesn't show any particular emotional engagement, I correct each time I see it rewritten in a way that makes someone more emotionally engaged that they are. By the way, I am not sold on the idea that this scene is a proof that Rhaegar convinced Elia about the prophecy.

JFC. Propaganda at its finest. Only a fanatical Rhaegar-hater would read that the way you did. The scene is meant to tell us that Rhaegar thinks that Aegon already has a predetermined destiny.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

JFC. Propaganda at its finest. Only a fanatical Rhaegar-hater would read that the way you did. The scene is meant to tell us that Rhaegar thinks that Aegon already has a predetermined destiny.

Yeah I am not seeing the complaint here at all.

It's not, "I don't love the kid and thus won't write a song for him." It's, "I won't write a song for him because as the freaking savior of mankind, he has one already." Not quite the same thing ...

[Anath]

Then you're projecting your personal situation and expectations into ASOIAF.

There seems to be a misconception on your part, not to mention that you're mixing situations prior the Rebellion and towards its end, when Aerys' shape severely deteriorated.

The rest of this paragraph are strawmen comparing entirely different situations just for the sake of being contrary and I am not going to adress these.

Him bringing it up in the first place suggests something - a trust in Elia, and if he trusted her once, it is not unreasonable to expect that this is not the first time he spoke about it with her, especially as he thought Aegon a PTWP since his conception.

1. No, that's me explaining why I don't think Rhaegar was ever caring in the way men who choose their family are. I don't expect him to be and I find it quite funny when those who bring out the fact that Rhaegar's marriage was arranged promptly ignore this and try to make him so, so caring and loving. It is as if the arranged match doesn't matter, he must care for his family! Well, we all know that men get attached to the woman more than they do to the kids, so I don't find it strange at all that Rhaegar would not feel bonded so much to two kids who were a product of an arranged marriage and were too little to offer too much in the way of sensible communication. You mean you never knew men who totally forget about their children after they get divorced (until the time for paying child support comes) and take more interest in their subsequent partners' children than their own?

2. So the fact that Aerys' condition severely deteriorated somehow makes him safer? For real?

3. Him bringing it up shows total insensitivity on his part - the woman had almost died not too long ago bringing his son into the world. He could have waited for a while before reminding her, informing her or whatever. A little consideration never hurts.

While it can indicate trust, nothing shows that it was not their first conversation on the topic. Show me that it wasn't?

Well, that was being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Actually, I think she knew. But you seem to read things into the text that are not there but support your ideas and then accuse the others of doing the same when their interpretation contradicts yours.

[Ygrain]

1. No, that's me explaining why I don't think Rhaegar was ever caring in the way men who choose their family are. I don't expect him to be and I find it quite funny when those who bring out the fact that Rhaegar's marriage was arranged promptly ignore this and try to make him so, so caring and loving. It is as if the arranged match doesn't matter, he must care for his family! Well, we all know that men get attached to the woman more than they do to the kids, so I don't find it strange at all that Rhaegar would not feel bonded so much to two kids who were a product of an arranged marriage and were too little to offer too much in the way of sensible communication. You mean you never knew men who totally forget about their children after they get divorced (until the time for paying child support comes) and take more interest in their subsequent partners' children than their own?

2. So the fact that Aerys' condition severely deteriorated somehow makes him safer? For real?

3. Him bringing it up shows total insensitivity on his part - the woman had almost died not too long ago bringing his son into the world. He could have waited for a while before reminding her, informing her or whatever. A little consideration never hurts.

While it can indicate trust, nothing shows that it was not their first conversation on the topic. Show me that it wasn't?

Well, that was being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Actually, I think she knew. But you seem to read things into the text that are not there but support your ideas and then accuse the others of doing the same when their interpretation contradicts yours.

1. And who's changing stance now? First you accuse him of neglecting his wife and children's safety, and when I counter this, you start inserting that I want him affectionate. Well, not the case. Not making special arrangements about their safety absolutely doesn't mean negligence or lack of feelings on his part and he certainly thought them safe at KL, no less than Robb and Cat thought Bran and Rickon safe at Winterfell.

2. Aerys was first and foremost paranoidly afraid of being betrayed and murdered. Infants and toddlers usually stay out of such scheming and, being Aerys' own blood, might not be seen as in any danger from him.

3. He who wants to beat a dog finds every stick handy, right?

As to reading things into the text:

1) Rhaegar was secretive and didn't confide to many.

2) Rhaegar was very fond of Elia

3) Elia was an intelligent woman

4) Elia was crucial to producing the three dragon heads

5) Rhaegar speaks to Elia about PTWP, ASOIAF and three dragons heads after Aegon's birth

6) no PoV of people outside Rhaegar's inner circle ever refer to the prophecies

Based on this, it is apparent that Elia was privy to something that Rhaegar didn't normally speak about. Birthing the child didn't make her any more reliable than she had been during the pregnancy or before., hence no reason not to tell her even before.

Yeah, no proof he did tell her, just inference. Still a logical one, stemming from the text, unlike something that doesn't exist in the text in any form.

[King Tyrion VIII]

So what exactly is the timeline for the entire timespan for R+L= J?

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could link or spell it out for me. My whole time on this forum I dont recall seeing one.

[Arya kiddin']

So what exactly is the timeline for the entire timespan for R+L= J?

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could link or spell it out for me. My whole time on this forum I dont recall seeing one.

Here you go. Set the scope to Dance with the Dragons.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

Here is another huge pointer in the books which indicates and clearly shows Rhaegar Targaryen's character.

By beginning AGOT, we hear he abducted Lyanna Stark, and basically that he is at fault for her death.That he raped her, maybe mistreated her etc.

But at my first re-read of the series I've been seeing a lot of little clues scattered thoughout the books indicating that Rhaegar is NOT the person we think he is.When I read the books for the first time it really slipped past me.I still though Rhaegar as a rapist even until ADWD and when I saw the whole R+L=J theory I felt soooo stupid for not "seeing" clearly.

Currently, I am ,as I said earier, re-reading the whole series.

In AGOT p.668 ,we are at the point where Drogo's khalasar is sacking Lhazar and wreaking havoc to the Lhazareene people.We are at the point where many Dothraki riders were brutally raping Lhazarene girls and women and Denaerys was trying to save the girls and commanded to cease the rapes etc.

Then Jorah says something like "You are your brother's sister,in truth." Dany asks "Viserys?" and Jorah replies something like "No, Rhaegar's."

Again, why throw Rhaegar's name in a situation which involves rape and in general the physical and psychological abuse of women while at this point first time readers know him as a rapist?

Because he wasn't one.

It's just right there and plain to see.

One more foreshadowing clue that Rhaegar never took Lyanna by force.

I know this has probably been said before but since this thread continues to exist...Things will likely get repeated over and over.

[Natasi]

I meant the moment when Elia asked him to do for Aegon something that he loves doing - write a song. Rhaegar flat-out refused because the child already had a song - a prophetic one, obviously. He refused to do something that to him, would be intimate and loving and well, something of him to give. Then, he said the line about the third head - I really, really hope he was talking to Dany and not his wife, - turned his back on them and went to his harp and his own little world.

There is no flat-out refusal at all. He responds to her question that the child already has a song. I don't see how that is a slight against Elia at all. You're showing here how strongly you read into things and are inserting words that aren't in the text. Responding with he already has a song could be the tenderness that you're looking for. I see it as admiration from Rhaegar. He seems to be in awe of this child that he and Elia produced.

I'm also going to point out that all the visions in the HotU were just that, visions. We have no indication that they transpired exactly the way Dany saw them. In fact, if you think the feast vision was a reference to the RW, that would be proof that the visions were not factually presented but rather metaphorically so as to convey a message.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Thank you that someone finally says there's not even a guarantee that those visions played out that way. Or do you really think that Rhaegar turned his head toward Dany like he did? ;)

[Bratchild]

Thank you that someone finally says there's not even a guarantee that those visions played out that way. Or do you really think that Rhaegar turned his head toward Dany like he did? ;)

For some reason, when I first read that it looked like he had seen Dany.I thought of in how one of the Ju-On films,it looks like Toyama and his daughter see each other in the house,(in that Toyama would be long dead by the time his daughter went into the cursed house).

So in my opinion, I think it is possible that Rhaegar saw or sensed Dany.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Hey, I just thought of the Samwell/Eddard parallel, and was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on it.

Not sure what it is called, but the parallel how:

• Ned brought Jon home and claims Jon to be his own bastard, after Rhaegar/Targs were defeated and Lyanna dies giving birth
• Jon instructs Samwell to bring Gilly's (really Mance's) son home and claim him as his own bastard, after Mance/Wildlings were defeated and Dalla dies giving birth

Might be a Wylla/Gilly comparison in there too, not sure

I tried multiple searches but could not find anything, so sorry for asking about this, if someone can post a link to a discussion, then thank you.