R+L = J v 64

[FrozenFire3]

Yes.. a day and a half between posts? Unthinkable! ;)

Nice observation, especially in light of the other parallels that have been noted between RLJ and the Jon/Gilly baby swap.

Talking of Lyanna's statue weeping blood, behold the comics intepretation of Ned's dream: here and reprise. Ned stark indeed :lol:

As for 'ghostbusty' Lyanna ;) garland of roses: check. Blood tears: check. I'm intrigued by her pose: very 'stern-stark', almost defensive... someone could even say slightly protective of her midsection. Interesting the wolf lying at her feet and that curiously shaped shadow at her back...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why's he nekkid? Next thing you're going to get L + N = J theories again. :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

Why's he nekkid? Next thing you're going to get L + N = J theories again. :lol:

:lmao:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

In AGOT Ned dreams about Lyanna's statue weeping blood. Then in ADWD Jon dreams about Gilly weeping blood. Jon's dream is pretty explicit that Gilly is weeping because of the baby swap. So I think the fact Lyanna weeps blood is a hint she's crying for her child too.

Nice catch.

I also think it represents a north identity aswell since weirwoods weep blood, and TSTWMW prophecy has women weeping blood.

[Ygrain]

A little fun: http://nocrimeinthewasteland.tumblr.com/post/64170903525/with-thanks-to-incorrectgotquotes-and-apologies

[sparkystiltskin]

It's of interest to note that while JS has the Stark look his Direwolf is decidedly Targ in appearance. Plus his silence is somewhat poetic no? He does not speak and hence does not reveal his secrets..

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

It's of interest to note that while JS has the Stark look his Direwolf is decidedly Targ in appearance. Plus his silence is somewhat poetic no? He does not speak and hence does not reveal his secrets..

You mean because Ghost is an albino & so is Bloodraven? As far as I know BR is the only Targ that is. :lol:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Well, think about it like this: had Ghost been black with red eyes (red with black eyes is too odd) then poor The Ned's heart!

Besides: stealth in snow is so much better than sticking out with a black coat (for a wolf).

[FrozenFire3]

A little 'detour' from a recent exchange with theguyfromtheVale (here and here):

Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

His long face floated before her [...] a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

The pattern A-B-B-A is figure of speech (chiasmus) often related to a syllogism. In this specific case, if shadows through curtains of fire are indeed dragons, it follows that the shadow half-seen behind the fluttering curtain is a dragon. QED ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A little 'detour' from a recent exchange with theguyfromtheVale (here and here):

The pattern A-B-B-A is figure of speech (chiasmus) often related to a syllogism. In this specific case, if shadows through curtains of fire are indeed dragons, it follows that the shadow half-seen behind the fluttering curtain is a dragon. QED ;)

I agree that the language here is meant to be mentally linked and/or to draw comparisons between one or the other.

[yolkboy]

In AGOT Ned dreams about Lyanna's statue weeping blood. Then in ADWD Jon dreams about Gilly weeping blood. Jon's dream is pretty explicit that Gilly is weeping because of the baby swap. So I think the fact Lyanna weeps blood is a hint she's crying for her child too.

Yes, good thinking. I interpret this as the 'blood' being symbolic of a 'relative', as the two terms are synonymous throughout the books. eg...

“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

[OberynBlackfyre]

After a reread of book five, I noticed that Barristan Selmy intricately thinks about his duties as a Queensguard/Kingsguard knight as he contemplates about what to do with Hizdar. He recalls that the Kingsguard of the past has been used to protect members of the royal blood which could include anyone from wife and children, to distant cousins or uncles or even bastards.

This of course doesn't point directly to Rhaegar/Jon Snow, I actually think it probably has something to do with Aegon the Unworthy, however it does set a precedent that Jon Snow did not HAVE TO be a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to be worthy of the protection of Kingsguard. The reason I make this statement is due to many points of his legitimacy being sold on the fact that the Kingsguard would be protecting a legitimate heir, otherwise they would have went with Rhaegar. This, is not the case.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

http://i.imgur.com/PZmYqmF.jpg

[Techelles]

After a reread of book five, I noticed that Barristan Selmy intricately thinks about his duties as a Queensguard/Kingsguard knight as he contemplates about what to do with Hizdar. He recalls that the Kingsguard of the past has been used to protect members of the royal blood which could include anyone from wife and children, to distant cousins or uncles or even bastards.

This of course doesn't point directly to Rhaegar/Jon Snow, I actually think it probably has something to do with Aegon the Unworthy, however it does set a precedent that Jon Snow did not HAVE TO be a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to be worthy of the protection of Kingsguard. The reason I make this statement is due to many points of his legitimacy being sold on the fact that the Kingsguard would be protecting a legitimate heir, otherwise they would have went with Rhaegar. This, is not the case.

That's not actually the argument that people make. They say that the three KG at the ToJ would have gone to Viserys once they realized that all other legitimate heirs were dead and that Viserys, the last trueborn heir, lacked KG protection. Big difference. If Jon was not also trueborn, they should have been on Dragonstone. KG have never defended bastards or the like if it meant leaving the king unguarded.

[Jon Icefyre]

Talking of Lyanna's statue weeping blood, behold the comics intepretation of Ned's dream: here and reprise. Ned stark indeed :lol:

As for 'ghostbusty' Lyanna ;) garland of roses: check. Blood tears: check. I'm intrigued by her pose: very 'stern-stark', almost defensive... someone could even say slightly protective of her midsection. Interesting the wolf lying at her feet and that curiously shaped shadow at her back...

That is a really slight but potentially huge clue, well done as usual. :thumbsup:

[OberynBlackfyre]

That's not actually the argument that people make. They say that the three KG at the ToJ would have gone to Viserys once they realized that all other legitimate heirs were dead and that Viserys, the last trueborn heir, lacked KG protection. Big difference. If Jon was not also trueborn, they should have been on Dragonstone. KG have never defended bastards or the like if it meant leaving the king unguarded.

mmm yes and no. With Viserys on the run they could have seen it as a somewhat of a lost cause. Plus Rhaegar being the heir apparent at the time, could have instructed them to stay no matter what. And even if Jon was bastard born, he still technically would come before Viserys because of the laws of inheritance, etc. Not even mentioning that, but also that these men were Rhaegars friends as well as his guards, I think they would carry out his last wish bastard or not. It is not grounds to say Jon HAS TO be legit.

[Techelles]

mmm yes and no. With Viserys on the run they could have seen it as a somewhat of a lost cause. Plus (1) Rhaegar being the heir apparent at the time, could have instructed them to stay no matter what. And (2) even if Jon was bastard born, he still technically would come before Viserys because of the laws of inheritance, etc. Not even mentioning that, but also that (3) these men were Rhaegars friends as well as his guards, I think they would carry out his last wish bastard or not. It is not grounds to say Jon HAS TO be legit.

I don't expect to convince you that Jon HAS TO be legit. But many readers, myself among them, have reviewed all the evidence and think it is by far the most likely explanation. It answers the most questions. I'm just presenting the arguments that people actually use to head off any straw men. So I'll just make a couple of points:

1) He could have instructed them to do that, sure, but if he did, then their decision to follow that order puts them in conflict with the primary duty (the standing order) of the kingsguard: protect the king. Did Rhaegar anticipate or account for these circumstances? Either way, the KG are disobeying one of these two orders by staying with Jon and Lyanna, yet when Ned confronts them, they insist that they are there because it is their duty. What do kingsguard consider to be their primary duty? How do they justify defending a non-heir when the true heir has no KG protection? This conflict complicates the question considerably (or makes it very simple, depending on your perspective).

2) If Jon was a bastard, he would have been completely outside the line of succession with no claim to inherit anything. That's the law, and it can only be changed by a royal decree of legitimization. Not sure where you're getting the "technically he would come before Viserys" bit, because that is definitely not the case.

3) Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegar's friends. Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander of the KG, was sent there by Aerys. And since he was the LC, Dayne and Whent were under his command. That means that they stayed for his reasons, not the reasons of Rhaegar's friends.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I don't expect to convince you that Jon HAS TO be legit. But many readers, myself among them, have reviewed all the evidence and think it is by far the most likely explanation. It answers the most questions. I'm just presenting the arguments that people actually use to head off any straw men. So I'll just make a couple of points:

1) He could have instructed them to do that, sure, but if he did, then their decision to follow that order puts them in conflict with the primary duty (the standing order) of the kingsguard: protect the king. Did Rhaegar anticipate or account for these circumstances? Either way, the KG are disobeying one of these two orders by staying with Jon and Lyanna, yet when Ned confronts them, they insist that they are there because it is their duty. What do kingsguard consider to be their primary duty? How do they justify defending a non-heir when the true heir has no KG protection? This conflict complicates the question considerably (or makes it very simple, depending on your perspective).

2) If Jon was a bastard, he would have been completely outside the line of succession with no claim to inherit anything. That's the law, and it can only be changed by a royal decree of legitimization. Not sure where you're getting the "technically he would come before Viserys" bit, because that is definitely not the case.

3) Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegars friends. Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander of the KG, was sent there by Aerys. And since he was the LC, Dayne and Whent were under his command. That means that they stayed for his reasons, not the reasons of Rhaegar's friends.

What I mean by "technically he would come before Viserys is that we don't know what Rhaegars plan was. We have no idea as whether Jon was born a bastard or true born, however we know that when Rhaegar left the tower of Joy, the Targaryens still had a good chance of winning the war. Jon could have been born a bastard, but Rhaegar could have told them of the "changes" he was wanting to make, the same hint he gave Jaime, possibly even stating that he meant to make Jon legitimate. That and if 2/3 of the knights were friends to Rhaegar, i think they could have easily swayed the commander that what they were doing was the right thing. Keep in mind that even if they wanted to, there wouldn't have been enough time for them to reach Viserys and his mother after the events that happened at Kings Landing. Yes, they acknowledged their duty, but they also had to act accordingly to what was the BEST action for the royal family. With baby Aegon dead, and Viserys being hunted, staying and protecting Jon, bastard though he may be at the time, could in essence have been the safest course.

I totally agree that what you're saying COULD be true, what I'm just stating is that the Kingsguard being there doesn't make it a certainty. If anything, it makes it a 50/50

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

There were three individual members of the Kingsguard at the ToJ. If there was some vow to Rhaegar thst needed to be upheld and they also believed Viserys was the legitimate heir (as he would have been if Jon is not legit) there is nothing to stop one (or two) of them going to Dragonstone to guard the legitimate king, while one (or two) remained with Lyanna.

To me this part of the ToJ exchange says it all:

Ned says

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

the reply:

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell Whent.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

Ser Gerold Hightower, LC of the Kingsguard, as good as says Viserys is not the King right there.

[Ygrain]

The number of threads would be much lower if not for our dear ToJ :D

After a reread of book five, I noticed that Barristan Selmy intricately thinks about his duties as a Queensguard/Kingsguard knight as he contemplates about what to do with Hizdar. He recalls that the Kingsguard of the past has been used to protect members of the royal blood which could include anyone from wife and children, to distant cousins or uncles or even bastards.

This of course doesn't point directly to Rhaegar/Jon Snow, I actually think it probably has something to do with Aegon the Unworthy, however it does set a precedent that Jon Snow did not HAVE TO be a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to be worthy of the protection of Kingsguard. The reason I make this statement is due to many points of his legitimacy being sold on the fact that the Kingsguard would be protecting a legitimate heir, otherwise they would have went with Rhaegar. This, is not the case.

And he also makes clear that this is not the true purpose of Kingsguard.

What I mean by "technically he would come before Viserys is that we don't know what Rhaegars plan was. We have no idea as whether Jon was born a bastard or true born, however we know that when Rhaegar left the tower of Joy, the Targaryens still had a good chance of winning the war. Jon could have been born a bastard, but Rhaegar could have told them of the "changes" he was wanting to make, the same hint he gave Jaime, possibly even stating that he meant to make Jon legitimate. That and if 2/3 of the knights were friends to Rhaegar, i think they could have easily swayed the commander that what they were doing was the right thing. Keep in mind that even if they wanted to, there wouldn't have been enough time for them to reach Viserys and his mother after the events that happened at Kings Landing. Yes, they acknowledged their duty, but they also had to act accordingly to what was the BEST action for the royal family. With baby Aegon dead, and Viserys being hunted, staying and protecting Jon, bastard though he may be at the time, could in essence have been the safest course.

The self-same guy who didn't let his conscience be swayed by seeing one man strangled and the other roasted alive because of duty?