R+L = J v 64

[JonNonRegis]

Nah, what I'm saying is that they are not cool at all, they are pissed. They are the Kingsguard, they know they should have been at the Trident and at King's Landing doing their duty, but instead they were ordered to guard Rhaegar's bit on the side down here in Hicksville, Hayseed County. As a result its all gone down the pan and they have failed in their duty, which is why they are bitter and twisted and why they are not even trying to defend the Tower or get the baby away, but have come out to die.

In support of R+L=J, the KG do seem to me to think their duty -- at the time Ned shows up -- is to be at the ToJ.

But it is admittedly a bit awkward for the KG... that if defending the king is their primary duty in life, a point constantly hammered by R+L=J supporters, they unquestionably failed to defend King Aerys.

That Aerys had a keep and city walls and gold cloaks should not have mattered a speck. The KG's primary duty was to defend King Aerys, and that they failed utterly to do.

I have seen this excused in this thread in two different ways:

1. Aerys had Jaime defending him, which satisfied the requirement. I can only roll my eyes at this.

2. The KG at the ToJ did not know Rhaegar had lost at the Trident. They didn't know Robert's victorious forces would soon be at King's Landing with the probable outcome of killing the king. They certainly didn't know Tywin's forces would sack the city and exterminate as much as possible of House Targaryen. So the KG didn't realize they were derelict in their primary duty.

Point 2 is better, but still problematic.

It presumes that news was very slow to reach the ToJ because it was not on the raven network (but the books never state this). It also presumes that King's Landing was sacked so quickly after the Trident that news couldn't possibly reach the ToJ by any non-raven means in time (but this is far from clear -- indeed, the KG somehow know Jaime was a traitor, and killed Aerys, before Ned gets there).

And even if we grant all these points to R+L=J we still have quite an awkward question to answer: How can the KG be sure a baby who looks nothing like a Targaryen is the son of Rhaegar? Were they, perhaps, standing around watching as Jon was conceived? It doesn't seem likely.

We don't even know where the KG were.. or Rhaegar was... or Lyanna was... in the entire month that Jon was conceived. Or the month before... or the month after... or the month after that... or after that... or after that...

So any assertion we make about the perfect certainty of the KG's knowledge of Rhaegar's paternity seems to me to be on very shaky ground.

[Arya kiddin']

It has been here for .......... so long. I say call this theory canon and call the thread done. :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

In support of R+L=J, the KG do seem to me to think their duty -- at the time Ned shows up -- is to be at the ToJ.

But it is admittedly a bit awkward for the KG... that if defending the king is their primary duty in life, a point constantly hammered by R+L=J supporters, they unquestionably failed to defend King Aerys.

That Aerys had a keep and city walls and gold cloaks should not have mattered a speck. The KG's primary duty was to defend King Aerys, and that they failed utterly to do.

I have seen this excused in this thread in two different ways:

1. Aerys had Jaime defending him, which satisfied the requirement. I can only roll my eyes at this.

2. The KG at the ToJ did not know Rhaegar had lost at the Trident. They didn't know Robert's victorious forces would soon be at King's Landing with the probable outcome of killing the king. They certainly didn't know Tywin's forces would sack the city and exterminate as much as possible of House Targaryen. So the KG didn't realize they were derelict in their primary duty.

Point 2 is better, but still problematic.

It presumes that news was very slow to reach the ToJ because it was not on the raven network (but the books never state this). It also presumes that King's Landing was sacked so quickly after the Trident that news couldn't possibly reach the ToJ by any non-raven means in time (but this is far from clear -- indeed, the KG somehow know Jaime was a traitor, and killed Aerys, before Ned gets there).

And even if we grant all these points to R+L=J we still have quite an awkward question to answer: How can the KG be sure a baby who looks nothing like a Targaryen is the son of Rhaegar? Were they, perhaps, standing around watching as Jon was conceived? It doesn't seem likely.

We don't even know where the KG were.. or Rhaegar was... or Lyanna was... in the entire month that Jon was conceived. Or the month before... or the month after... or the month after that... or after that... or after that...

So any assertion we make about the perfect certainty of the KG's knowledge of Rhaegar's paternity seems to me to be on very shaky ground.

As far as we know, the KG at the ToJ have had no information at all about the disposition of their remaining four brothers, the city guard, the royal army, etc... until after the Sack. The Trident and Sack are separated by two weeks at the most. Since we don't know how they were getting their news, only that they seem to know of recent events prior to Ned's arrival and after the Sack, I don't see how their "decision" to stay prior to that can be called into question.

In fact, in hindsight, that their decision to stay proved to be a dereliction of duty is specifically alluded to in this line:

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

It's just as likely that Rhaegar was the derelict party-- taking three of the four KG that were in KL with him into battle (albeit a battle he meant to win) and leaving his father and elder son poorly protected, at least if you measure protection only by ratio of KG to royal personages. We have no indication that the three at the ToJ knew anything about this until it was too late.

To your point about news travelling-- they were (evidently) in a secret location. How and why exactly would they have been getting regular news reports? It seems that the presuming being done is that the ToJ would have been on the raven network. Given what we know about both things (ToJ=abandoned watchtower in the borderlands between Dorne and the Reach, and ravens require maesters to care for them) that seems like an unlikely presumption. Clearly somehow after the Sack they received some news (because they appear to have knowledge of recent events) beyond that we really can't say. Ned's window of arrival is two to six weeks after Rhaella fled KL with Robert's van racing toward the city. If you allow the full two weeks between the Trident and the Sack, Ned still has four weeks to reach the ToJ which seems like more than enough time for a messenger to arrive ahead of him.

Finally... really? If there was some "uncertainty" about the parentage of the unborn child (whose looks would then play no role in their decision) why the heck would they stay in the first place? You grant the point of KG duty at the outset and then conclude by suggesting they didn't even know if the baby was Rhaegar's? :wacko:

[Ygrain]

Nah, what I'm saying is that they are not cool at all, they are pissed. They are the Kingsguard, they know they should have been at the Trident and at King's Landing doing their duty, but instead they were ordered to guard Rhaegar's bit on the side down here in Hicksville, Hayseed County. As a result its all gone down the pan and they have failed in their duty

Nope. No matter how they might feel about the Trident and the Sack, they still have a duty to do as long as there is a single Targ heir alive: to protect him/her and help to reclaim the crown. Viserys is supposedly the next in line and Rhaella is alive, as well, and to them the KG still have a duty which they are not doing by staying at ToJ.

which is why they are bitter and twisted and why they are not even trying to defend the Tower or get the baby away, but have come out to die.

Sorry but this is faulty reading. They are not showing resignation but determination, "Now it begins" is not a phrase indicating giving in. They are not bitter, they are proud about their KG status, or else they wouldn't repeatedly refer to the KG values and emphasize that they are upholding them. Finally, they say that they are staying because of a vow, which definitely does not apply to committing suicide by Northmen.

Finally... really? If there was some "uncertainty" about the parentage of the unborn child (whose looks would then play no role in their decision) why the heck would they stay in the first place? You grant the point of KG duty at the outset and then conclude by suggesting they didn't even know if the baby was Rhaegar's? :wacko:

But of course they couldn't be sure about the paternity. Hightower mightily spoiled the fun by his arrival bcs the educated Rhaegar knew of the Dothraki custom of sharing wives with the bloodriders so they were indulging in threesomes (not foursomes, one KG always had to stand on guard)

Seriously, JNR's "counterarguments" have all been addressed before, in quite some detail. Somehow, thing like the fact that a tower long fallen aka an abandoned watchtower definitely doesn't possess a rookery are difficult to sink in.

[Black Crow]

Oh the grim determination is there, but they're not protecting anybody; they've come out of the tower to fight in the open, no-one is standing guard over the babe and no-one is carrying the babe to safety on a fast horse while the others buy time for his getaway.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But of course they couldn't be sure about the paternity. Hightower mightily spoiled the fun by his arrival bcs the educated Rhaegar knew of the Dothraki custom of sharing wives with the bloodriders so they were indulging in threesomes (not foursomes, one KG always had to stand on guard)

Seriously, JNR's "counterarguments" have all been addressed before, in quite some detail. Somehow, thing like the fact that a tower long fallen aka an abandoned watchtower definitely doesn't possess a rookery are difficult to sink in.

I was going to suggest that Ser Arthur liked "to watch" but this sounds like more fun :p

Yes, old ground... but failure to answer might lead to certain ideas proliferating (like a rookeries in abandoned towers...) Think of the fans of tomorrow! My answer was "for the children" as Varys would say ;)

[Ygrain]

I was going to suggest that Ser Arthur liked "to watch" but this sounds like more fun :P

Yes, old ground... but failure to answer might lead to certain ideas proliferating (like a rookeries in abandoned towers...) Think of the fans of tomorrow! My answer was "for the children" as Varys would say ;)

Gosh, even Aerys kept his KG outside the bedroom...

The children also crossed my mind but you were faster :P

Oh the grim determination is there, but they're not protecting anybody; they've come out of the tower to fight in the open, no-one is standing guard over the babe and no-one is carrying the babe to safety on a fast horse while the others buy time for his getaway.

You do realize that both scenarios you propose are leaving 2 against 7, right? Letting one person stand over the craddle while the others fight outside makes no sense, as long as Ned et comp. do not get inside, he is about as useful as the proverbial nipples on breastplate. The other scenario makes more sense but still poises several problems, namely, not just a knight with the baby on a fast horse buth the knight, the baby and the WETNURSE (or at least a goat) - not so fast. Plus, that delicate problem what happens next when the remaining KG fall and Ned finds out that Lyanna had given birth - the secret is out, and the Northerners live to tell the tale of another son of Rhaegar's, just a couple of weeks after Rhaegar's other children were brutally murdered. That would be basically death sentence for Jon, even if the one KG managed to snatch him away for the time being. Eventually, he would be tracked down and killed. So, the KG took the risk and tried to maintain Jon's greater defence - secrecy. If they managed to defeat the Northmen, they could safely move Jon without anyone knowing of his existence.

[tf13]

I''m not sure it's been brought up before, but is there a chance that Rhaegar, who knowingly had a bastard child with Lyanna, legitimized him during his short time as the "king"? Could that letter be in the crypts? It would have meant someone heading north who's an ally of the Starks/Robert, most likely.

ETA: I guess a raven could have done the job, as well, but it'd have likely been shot down at some point. And that would've meant that Luwin received the letter and I have a hard time thinking he'd keep something like that from Ned.

[Black Crow]

I really don't think a mouldy bit of parchment will change anything

[The guy from the Vale]

Rhaegar died before he was king. No way for him to legitimize a bastard. Jon was probably born legitimate.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Rhaegar was never king. Aerys still lived when he died at the Trident. (eta- :ninja: 'd by theguyfromtheVale!)

If there's anything in the crypts it's more likely symbolic-- Rhaegar's harp, the crown of the Kings of Winter or a dragon's egg, for instance.

Not mutually exclusive either. All three would be a trifecta of royal regalia (and interestingly enough all three can be tied symbolically to King Arthur who many of us think Jon has parallels to)

[Ygrain]

Theoretically, there might have been a decree making Jon legit issued by Aerys in exchange for Rhaegar's return, but I see no way how this could have been kept secret from Varys, who doesn't seem to have any clue about who Jon is.

But I think that the honourable Rhaegar doing the Right Thing not to dishonour the woman he loves is way more plausible. Heck, even Craster knows that you should marry the woman you want to bed.

[Arya kiddin']

Rhaegar was never king. Aerys still lived when he died at the Trident. (eta- :ninja:'d by theguyfromtheVale!)

If there's anything in the crypts it's more likely symbolic-- Rhaegar's harp, the crown of the Kings of Winter or a dragon's egg, for instance.

Not mutually exclusive either. All three would be a trifecta of royal regalia (and interestingly enough all three can be tied symbolically to King Arthur who many of us think Jon has parallels too)

Out of these three artifacts, for me the harp or the egg makes much more sense than the crown, because that way his Targ heritage and connection to Rhaegar can be pointed out.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Out of these three artifacts, for me the harp or the egg makes much more sense than the crown, because that way his Targ heritage and connection to Rhaegar can be pointed out.

I agree, except that the crown symbolizes the union of R+L. As a Stark artifact that was surrendered to the Targs, it could most likely only be returned to them by a Targ.

Personally I'm beginning to favor all three since royal regalia often appears as a trio.

[Arya kiddin']

I agree, except that the crown symbolizes the union of R+L. As a Stark artifact that was surrendered to the Targs, it could most likely only be returned to them by a Targ.

Personally I'm beginning to favor all three since royal regalia often appears as a trio.

:o . I see. I take my earlier suggestion back, this thread should continue on. :lol:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

:o . I see. I take my earlier suggestion back, this thread should continue on. :lol:

:D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding who finally gave the knights the info of the Trident and the Sack and who tipped Ned off about where to find Lyanna, I think the same informer tipped off both parties, and that was Ashara. Ned somehow knowing right where to go suggests that he was TOLD and had info he didn't have previously. Likewise, someone had to tell the KG what had happened and also, I think, that Ned was coming. They don't seem surprised to see him, which makes sense if they were expecting him. Likewise, Ned only bringing six other men he trusted tells me that he knew exactly what he'd find there. The convo he has indicates to me that he wants to verify existing information, not find new info.

[Ygrain]

Regarding who finally gave the knights the info of the Trident and the Sack and who tipped Ned off about where to find Lyanna, I think the same informer tipped off both parties, and that was Ashara. Ned somehow knowing right where to go suggests that he was TOLD and had info he didn't have previously. Likewise, someone had to tell the KG what had happened and also, I think, that Ned was coming. They don't seem surprised to see him, which makes sense if they were expecting him. Likewise, Ned only bringing six other men he trusted tells me that he knew exactly what he'd find there. The convo he has indicates to me that he wants to verify existing information, not find new info.

Or perhaps he misses the part about the secret marriage, to which his source may not have been privy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Regarding who finally gave the knights the info of the Trident and the Sack and who tipped Ned off about where to find Lyanna, I think the same informer tipped off both parties, and that was Ashara. Ned somehow knowing right where to go suggests that he was TOLD and had info he didn't have previously. Likewise, someone had to tell the KG what had happened and also, I think, that Ned was coming. They don't seem surprised to see him, which makes sense if they were expecting him. Likewise, Ned only bringing six other men he trusted tells me that he knew exactly what he'd find there. The convo he has indicates to me that he wants to verify existing information, not find new info.

I agree with this. I'd add that I imagine Ashara was at Starfall and received a raven from KL (standard news procedure) She then sends a raven or messenger to Ned at SE and sends a messenger (or goes personally) to ToJ. I've said before, I think Wylla could have been used as a messenger and also that there is like to have been some commerce between SF and ToJ all along. Her involvement at this point goes a long way towards explaining Ned's mysterious journey to SF to "return" Dawn.

[MtnLion]

I have one teeny problem with that well thought out analysis:

I don't necessarily think this is Ned offering them one final chance at escape (for want of a better word) - I just interpreted this as Ned saying he's surprised to find them still there rather than with Rhaella and Viserys, not that he's giving them one last opportunity to sail off to Dragonstone without having to fight.

My 2 cents!

First look at it as each party would look at it, pretend you have the duties and responsibilities of the Kingsguard, what are you hearing and what are you saying in response? Then look at it like Ned, what are you saying and what responses are you hearing. Make sure to keep everything in the correct order.

It looks to me as though Ned is telling them that the war is lost and the king(s) are dead. He asks them to surrender to him, like the forces at Storm's End. They won't surrender, and he does not want to fight them, so he has to come up with something else. That something else is that Viserys is yet alive, is the heir, and his location without a Kingsguard. So, he is inviting a conversation about the Kingsguard's peaceable retreat from the tower to Dragonstone. Ned is looking for a peaceful solution, he only wants to be with his sister. The Kingsguard hold tightly to their duty and their honor, and try to maintain the secrecy of what they are doing at the tower. In the end both parties are forced to fight, simply by the circumstances of R+L=J.