R+L = J v 64

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or perhaps he misses the part about the secret marriage, to which his source may not have been privy.

Actually I think Ned had to have known that Jon wasn't a bastard, because that's the only context that makes sense. It also, by the way, increases the danger Jon is in from Robert. A bastard is a pain but ultimately not of much political consequence. A legitimate son though, that's another thing entirely.

[Ygrain]

Actually I think Ned had to have known that Jon wasn't a bastard, because that's the only context that makes sense. It also, by the way, increases the danger Jon is in from Robert. A bastard is a pain but ultimately not of much political consequence. A legitimate son though, that's another thing entirely.

I believe he knew, as well, but perhaps not yet at the point when he was confronted by the KG.

First look at it as each party would look at it, pretend you have the duties and responsibilities of the Kingsguard, what are you hearing and what are you saying in response? Then look at it like Ned, what are you saying and what responses are you hearing. Make sure to keep everything in the correct order.

It looks to me as though Ned is telling them that the war is lost and the king(s) are dead. He asks them to surrender to him, like the forces at Storm's End. They won't surrender, and he does not want to fight them, so he has to come up with something else. That something else is that Viserys is yet alive, is the heir, and his location without a Kingsguard. So, he is inviting a conversation about the Kingsguard's peaceable retreat from the tower to Dragonstone. Ned is looking for a peaceful solution, he only wants to be with his sister. The Kingsguard hold tightly to their duty and their honor, and try to maintain the secrecy of what they are doing at the tower. In the end both parties are forced to fight, simply by the circumstances of R+L=J.

Agreed, hence all that sadness, both on Arthur Dayne's part as well as on Ned's.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I believe he knew, as well, but perhaps not yet at the point when he was confronted by the KG.

He had to have some basic idea though, or else the entire basis of the conversation is thrown out.

[Ygrain]

He had to have some basic idea though, or else the entire basis of the conversation is thrown out.

It was the legit part I questioned, not the whole R+L. He definitely knew that she was no prisoner there and perhaps even that she was pregnant/gave birth. I am unsure if he was informed, or might have figured on his own, the marriage. That introductory part (looked for you, wondered where you were), contains too much questioning, IMHO, for him to fully grasp the picture. He definitely had no clue and was puzzled by their absence at Trident and KL, so whatever he learned it was only later, but it still doesn't mean that he received complete information.

[El Guapo]

Theoretically, there might have been a decree making Jon legit issued by Aerys in exchange for Rhaegar's return, but I see no way how this could have been kept secret from Varys, who doesn't seem to have any clue about who Jon is.

The problem with this is that whoever the King in Westeros is at the moment this is revealed could simply just rip it up and say "Oops sorry, you are still a bastard"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It was the legit part I questioned, not the whole R+L. He definitely knew that she was no prisoner there and perhaps even that she was pregnant/gave birth. I am unsure if he was informed, or might have figured on his own, the marriage. That introductory part (looked for you, wondered where you were), contains too much questioning, IMHO, for him to fully grasp the picture. He definitely had no clue and was puzzled by their absence at Trident and KL, so whatever he learned it was only later, but it still doesn't mean that he received complete information.

No, I think he had been told that Jon was legitimate but might have been unsure of how accurate the info was. The convo wasn't him being genuinely confused; he's being coy and trying to confirm what he already knows. He's just trying to get THEM to spit it out.

[Ygrain]

The problem with this is that whoever the King in Westeros is at the moment this is revealed could simply just rip it up and say "Oops sorry, you are still a bastard"

Well, we're not concerned with the validity of the document now but then, and in the eyes of the Targaryen KG, such a document would have been valid.

No, I think he had been told that Jon was legitimate but might have been unsure of how accurate the info was. The convo wasn't him being genuinely confused; he's being coy and trying to confirm what he already knows. He's just trying to get THEM to spit it out.

I'm not claiming that this is impossible, I just don't think that his full knowledge can be established for sure. I'd even argue that the lack of any hint at Jon's existence might imply that he wasn't aware of this (though Prince Viserys might be one such hint, provided that he did have full knowledge).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not claiming that this is impossible, I just don't think that his full knowledge can be established for sure. I'd even argue that the lack of any hint at Jon's existence might imply that he wasn't aware of this (though Prince Viserys might be one such hint, provided that he did have full knowledge).

I think Jon's existence is heavily implied. It's just that he's waiting for them to say it, rather than say it himself.

[Zupoleon]

I agree that Ashara is the most likely candidate for informing Ned of the ToJ's whereabouts (and also telling the KG that Ned was on the way), and who he could expect to find there. Assuming this was done via raven mail, I can't imagine she would risk telling him the truth about Jon in such a letter, what with the risk of it coming into the wrong hands. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ashara was around Storm's End to tell Ned in person...

IMO, Ned knew exactly who he would find at the TOJ, but did not grasp the full extent of the situation until he got there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree that Ashara is the most likely candidate for informing Ned of the ToJ's whereabouts (and also telling the KG that Ned was on the way), and who he could expect to find there. Assuming this was done via raven mail, I can't imagine she would risk telling him the truth about Jon in such a letter, what with the risk of it coming into the wrong hands. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ashara was around Storm's End to tell Ned in person...

IMO, Ned knew exactly who he would find at the TOJ, but did not grasp the full extent of the situation until he got there.

I'm wondering if this is where the "Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor at Starfall" thing comes into play.

[Zupoleon]

I'm wondering if this is where the "Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor at Starfall" thing comes into play.

Quite true. In the end, the important thing is that he definitely knows when he leaves the TOJ with Jon...

[Alia of the knife]

And, speculatively speaking, it also hints at the "special" relationship between Ashara and Ned.

Whether or not he initially loved her, he may have offered to marry her to save her honor over what Brandon had likely done, but then, Brandon died and he had to marry Cat.

But, if events occurred that way, I think it might explain why she would alert Ned that his sister was in a bad way. And I don't know that she would have told her brother that she was going to tell Ned, but might have taken the matter into her own hands, which ended with disastrous consequences.

[FullSizeTyrion]

Possibly a n00b question, but how could Rhaegar and Lyanna be married? Rhaegar was married to Elia, and as far as I can see there is no bigamy in green lands. I can't see any divorce either, although there is annulment if not consumated.

Otherwise, I can't see the significance of this theory without him being legitimised, as Stannis tried to do ironically.

[MtnLion]

Possibly a n00b question, but how could Rhaegar and Lyanna be married? Rhaegar was married to Elia, and as far as I can see there is no bigamy in green lands. I can't see any divorce either, although there is annulment if not consumated.

Otherwise, I can't see the significance of this theory without him being legitimised, as Stannis tried to do ironically.

How many wives did Aegon I have? Two sisters, at the least. The Targaryens could and did pactice bigamy. GRRM has even threatened to add more than what we already know about, too, to support the idea that it is possible. Do take a little time to read the answers to your questions on page one, before posting them.

[FullSizeTyrion]

Alright. I wasn't sure where to look for that FAQ. I did check the theories page.

One part is still problematic though. Jon Snow is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and I can't think of a precedent for those vows being set aside. Even if he's the rightful king (which presupposes Aegon is fake as Aegon is supposedly older), it makes no matter. I know Stannis didn't think it would be a problem, but it suited his cause to argue that. I suppose you have to add Robb Stark to that list. Hmm.

Sorry if this has already been discussed at length, 64 threads is too many to read.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Well, there is the fact that the Kings's Guard are similarly sworn but Joffery still fired Barristan.

[Addam of Hull]

Alright. I wasn't sure where to look for that FAQ. I did check the theories page.

One part is still problematic though. Jon Snow is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and I can't think of a precedent for those vows being set aside. Even if he's the rightful king (which presupposes Aegon is fake as Aegon is supposedly older), it makes no matter. I know Stannis didn't think it would be a problem, but it suited his cause to argue that.

Sorry if this has already been discussed at length, 64 threads is too many to read.

There are a few ways to get around the vows. Aemon was offered to be absolved from his vows as a Maester during a Great Council. Additionally, if the Wall falls and the Night's Watch is dissolved, then it hardly matters.

Of course, personally, I don't think it actually matters because the real significance here deals more with personal discovery and mystical connotations than whether Jon is Rhaegar's successor. Being the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen has more personal meaning for Jon, who has always been a motherless bastard, than anything else. I'm not really convinced that Jon will ever touch the Iron Throne in truth and I don't really want him to.

[Dead Wolf]

Alright. I wasn't sure where to look for that FAQ. I did check the theories page.

One part is still problematic though. Jon Snow is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and I can't think of a precedent for those vows being set aside. Even if he's the rightful king (which presupposes Aegon is fake as Aegon is supposedly older), it makes no matter. I know Stannis didn't think it would be a problem, but it suited his cause to argue that. I suppose you have to add Robb Stark to that list. Hmm.

Sorry if this has already been discussed at length, 64 threads is too many to read.

Well there is no precedent for releasing a Sworn Brother of the NW from his vows, but the NW has taken commands from the Starks before. They obeyed Artos the Implacable when he told them to bury dead wildlings after the Battle of Long Lake

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

And, speculatively speaking, it also hints at the "special" relationship between Ashara and Ned.

Whether or not he initially loved her, he may have offered to marry her to save her honor over what Brandon had likely done, but then, Brandon died and he had to marry Cat.

But, if events occurred that way, I think it might explain why she would alert Ned that his sister was in a bad way. And I don't know that she would have told her brother that she was going to tell Ned, but might have taken the matter into her own hands, which ended with disastrous consequences.

I strongly suspect she didn't tell Arthur, and the tragic consequences are what led to her suicide. Think about Sansa going to Cersei, oblivious to the consequences and Doran's admonition to Arianne "someone always tells." In these diverse situations the "tellers" had very different motivations, what ties them together are the dire consequences.

I also agree with Zupoleon that it probably wasn't Ashara herself who went to SE, it would have been remarked upon don't you think? Nor does it seem like a message you could entrust to a raven upon reflection. So this could be where Wylla comes in. Having always wondered about the role of Ethan Glover, I wonder if he was included because he was the one who made first contact with the messenger at SE? Total speculation, take it fwiw.

I do think it very likely that Ashara went personally to ToJ at some point. I've suggested in the past that perhaps she brought some conveyance hoping to evacuate Lyanna, and this is why Ned was able to carry Lyanna's body out, but not the others.

So little to go on, it's like doing an all white puzzle! Just keep shifting the bits around til you find some that click together ;)

[FullSizeTyrion]

Of course, personally, I don't think it actually matters because the real significance here deals more with personal discovery and mystical connotations than whether Jon is Rhaegar's successor. Being the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen has more personal meaning for Jon, who has always been a motherless bastard, than anything else. I'm not really convinced that Jon will ever touch the Iron Throne in truth and I don't really want him to.

Pretty complex theory to have such an anti climatic ending though. It also depends on Aegon being fake, not accepted or dying first.