R+L = J v 64

[Old-Growth]

Well there is no precedent for releasing a Sworn Brother of the NW from his vows, but the NW has taken commands from the Starks before. They obeyed Artos the Implacable when he told them to bury dead wildlings after the Battle of Long Lake

According to GRRM there is such a precedent, tho' he has not said when, how, or under what circumstances. But at least one member of the Nights watch has been able to leave without becoming an outlaw.

[Consigliere]

According to GRRM there is such a precedent, tho' he has not said when, how, or under what circumstances. But at least one member of the Nights watch has been able to leave without becoming an outlaw.

Yes, I vaguely remember reading such an SSM. There may be a way for Jon to release himself from his vows. One that we are not yet aware of.

[BericDondarrion]

My ultimate crackpot is Benjen+Lyanna = Jon.

That would explain Benjen joining the Nw. Qhorin told Jon he knew his father well which would make more sense for Benjen then Ned. Bran saw a vision of Benjen and Lyanna playing so we knew they were close. Benjen also could have been jealous when Rhagear sang and Lyanna cried and that's why she poured wine on his head.

[Old-Growth]

Yes, I vaguely remember reading such an SSM. There may be a way for Jon to release himself from his vows. One that we are not yet aware of.

If the release requires the Lord Commander's approval :-)

[Consigliere]

My ultimate crackpot is Benjen+Lyanna = Jon.

That would explain Benjen joining the Nw. Qhorin told Jon he knew his father well which would make more sense for Benjen then Ned. Bran saw a vision of Benjen and Lyanna playing so we knew they were close. Benjen also could have been jealous when Rhagear sang and Lyanna cried and that's why she poured wine on his head.

Nah, brah. The ultimate crackpot is Bran travelling back in time via the Weirnet™, seducing Lyanna and impregnating her.

Edit. That shit is wrong on so many levels.

[WhiteOwl18]

There we were two days ago, languishing on page 9 and look at us now ;)

Fisherman's Daughter anyone?

Naughty! So, so naughty! :P

[Consigliere]

My ultimate crackpot is Benjen+Lyanna = Jon.

That would explain Benjen joining the Nw. Qhorin told Jon he knew his father well which would make more sense for Benjen then Ned. Bran saw a vision of Benjen and Lyanna playing so we knew they were close. Benjen also could have been jealous when Rhagear sang and Lyanna cried and that's why she poured wine on his head.

Okay. [serious mode]

During the rebellion, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell. The rebellion lasted for close to a year. Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, which means that Lyanna was impregnated a few months into the rebellion. The timeline does not fit for Benjen being the father.

[Ygrain]

Okay. [serious mode]

During the rebellion, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell. The rebellion lasted for close to a year. Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, which means that Lyanna was impregnated a few months into the rebellion. The timeline does not fit for Benjen being the father.

Not to mention that the Rebellion started only after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert when Lyanna had already been missing for some time.

[Consigliere]

Not to mention that the Rebellion started only after Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert when Lyanna had already been missing for some time.

Whoops forgot to mention that bit. Suppose I take that part to be fairly obvious to anyone who paid attention while reading the books.

[Ygrain]

Whoops forgot to mention that bit. Suppose I take that part to be fairly obvious to anyone who paid attention while reading the books.

More than just a couple of facts that we have to argue every now and then are "fairly obvious", I'm afraid, yet it never stopped any detractors (e.g. the issue of ToJ not being on the raven network, recently).

[Consigliere]

More than just a couple of facts that we have to argue every now and then are "fairly obvious", I'm afraid, yet it never stopped any detractors (e.g. the issue of ToJ not being on the raven network, recently).

:lol:

Must've missed that one. What is their evidence? Let me guess, absolutely nothing. That's like me saying Starfall (and many, many, many other Houses) are not on the raven network because there is no evidence in the books of a raven arriving there.

Maybe I should search for the R+L=/=J thread and post the "evidence" here since the OP refuses to join this discussion. Let's see exactly what the detractors have to say.

[MtnLion]

:lol:

Must've missed that one. What is their evidence? Let me guess, absolutely nothing. That's like me saying Starfall (and many, many, many other Houses) are not on the raven network because there is no evidence in the books of a raven arriving there.

Maybe I should search for the R+L=/=J thread and post the "evidence" here since the OP refuses to join this discussion. Let's see exactly what the detractors have to say.

GRRM gave us that piece tot he puzzle. The ravens fly to their home, like homing pigeons. They must be carted to their origin before being released to fly home with their messages. There are maybe s vrty few which have two homes and can be told to fly to one or the other. But, if the Night's Watch is to send a raven to King's Landing, there is a specific bird which flies to King's Landing, having been brought from King's Landing to Castle Black, that they would use. The three birds that the Karstarks had while with Stannis were all raised at Winterfell, and would return there when released.

[LadyMary]

It was the legit part I questioned, not the whole R+L. He definitely knew that she was no prisoner there and perhaps even that she was pregnant/gave birth. I am unsure if he was informed, or might have figured on his own, the marriage. That introductory part (looked for you, wondered where you were), contains too much questioning, IMHO, for him to fully grasp the picture. He definitely had no clue and was puzzled by their absence at Trident and KL, so whatever he learned it was only later, but it still doesn't mean that he received complete information.

No, I think he had been told that Jon was legitimate but might have been unsure of how accurate the info was. The convo wasn't him being genuinely confused; he's being coy and trying to confirm what he already knows. He's just trying to get THEM to spit it out.

I have struggled with the idea that Rhaegar managed to bring back the historical practice of polygamy in order to marry Lyanna, but there's no textual evidence that Rhaegar has his marriage to Elia set aside. I do think it's likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna exchanged vows, perhaps in front of the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces, on their way South. So as far as they and the two Kingsguards that witnessed it were concerned, it was a legitimate marriage. Whether the rest of the Kingdom, including Ned Stark, would have considered it a legitimate marriage is open to question.

At least two of the three KG at the ToJ were personally loyal to Rhaegar because they were his friends and it would probably have been enough for even Lord Commander Hightower to view Jon as the legitimate King as the only (known) surviving son of Rhaegar. Also, I think there may have been some misplaced survivor guilt on the part of the three for "failing" to protect the King, Prince Rhaegar, his first wife and two of his children. I think they considered their last duty was to protect Rhaegar's surviving son and heir.

As for what Ned knew about the status of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, my impression of the passage is that he was genuinely confused by the absence of the three KGs on the battlefield and surprised to find them in Dorne protecting the ToJ instead. The dialog in the fever dream supports the idea that they were doing their duty protecting their King but I don't know that it was immediately evident to Ned. I think it's likely that his conversation with Lyanna, during which he made her promises, she disclosed that she had married Rhaegar and their son was legitimate. It doesn't matter if Ned accepted the validity of the marriage or Jon's legitimacy because he loved his sister and would keep his promises and protect her son, regardless of Jon's true status.

So, I think at least Lyanna, LC Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent accepted Jon was the legitimate heir to Rhaegar, and King of the realm. The question is, would the rest of the realm accept it? It doesn't matter because the other Targaryens were dead or exiled and King Robert would have ordered the death of Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, if he'd known - legitimate or not.

Ned was loyal to Robert his King and friend, but he was disgusted by Robert's justification of child murder. He loved his sister and kept his promises to her by protecting her son, regardless of whether Jon was also a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne. The best way for Ned to remain loyal to Robert while protecting his nephew is to pretend Jon is someone other than who he is, and no threat to the King.

[MtnLion]

The conversation that takes pace at the Tower of Joy, between Ned and the Kingsguard has all of the information that Ned found useful. No surprises in the news that Ned carries, so they weren't misinformed, or uninformed. They state that they are utterly loyal to House Targaryen, even to the Mad King himself. They state that they have a vow, and that was a sticking point for me, until A Storm of Swords and Jaime's description of the vow as being "protect and defend the king". Jaime goes on about swearing this, that, and the other thing; but he is clear about the vow. So, if one reads "vow" as "vow to protect and defend the king" it becomes laughably clear what is going on.

How do the Kingsguard know that Jon is legitimate? Rhaegar and Lyanna must have married, to make Jon legitimate, Whent and Dayne have been with Rhaegar at least since he had Lyanna join the party. They must have witnessed the ceremony, so they know. No, Lyanna is not a courtesan, that does not fit her personality one whit! She would no more be a mistress than marry Robert.

[Queen Alienor]

I think at that time it would not have mattered wether Jon is legitimate or not for most people, even if his existence had been common knowledge. To Ned, Jon was his sisters son, no matter what, and to Robert, he was Rhaegars son, no matter what. I can't really see Dorne happily supporting the son of the woman who was the reason their Princess Elia was shamed and everybody else had already bend their knee to Robert.

The bastard/not-bastard issue could however throw Jon of balance, as he has always suffered from being a bastard and now that he finally seems to have embaraced it, he learns that he never was a bastard...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think at that time it would not have mattered wether Jon is legitimate or not for most people, even if his existence had been common knowledge. To Ned, Jon was his sisters son, no matter what, and to Robert, he was Rhaegars son, no matter what. I can't really see Dorne happily supporting the son of the woman who was the reason their Princess Elia was shamed and everybody else had already bend their knee to Robert.

The bastard/not-bastard issue could however throw Jon of balance, as he has always suffered from being a bastard and now that he finally seems to have embaraced it, he learns that he never was a bastard...

I think this is another reason, thematically, Jon is legitimate. Part of the revelation of his parents is that it shakes him to the core, because it completely undermines everything he bases his identity on. Part of that identity is being Ned's son, and another part of it is being a bastard. While it will obviously be a shock to him to learn that he isn't Ned's son, I also don't see the point in him going from being one guy's bastard to another's.

Him being legitimate also means that quite a few "jokes" that GRRM has in the text make substantially more sense. One that immediately comes to mind is Jon not being allowed to spar with Joffrey, because bastards can't fight princes. The obvious (and by obvious I mean, intentional; GRRM knew what he was doing when he wrote it) joke is that Joffrey is the bastard and Jon is the prince (king), but it's a joke that only makes sense if Jon isn't a bastard.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think this is another reason, thematically, Jon is legitimate. Part of the revelation of his parents is that it shakes him to the core, because it completely undermines everything he bases his identity on. Part of that identity is being Ned's son, and another part of it is being a bastard. While it will obviously be a shock to him to learn that he isn't Ned's son, I also don't see the point in him going from being one guy's bastard to another's.

Him being legitimate also means that quite a few "jokes" that GRRM has in the text make substantially more sense. One that immediately comes to mind is Jon not being allowed to spar with Joffrey, because bastards can't fight princes. The obvious (and by obvious I mean, intentional; GRRM knew what he was doing when he wrote it) joke is that Joffrey is the bastard and Jon is the prince (king), but it's a joke that only makes sense if Jon isn't a bastard.

Exactly. And unless I miss my guess we're about to see that theme revived to the nth power with fAegon and Jon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Exactly. And unless I miss my guess we're about to see that theme revived to the nth power with fAegon and Jon.

Yep. And speaking of Joffrey and Jon, you also have the duality of a bastard passed off as the heir and the heir passed off as a bastard. The symmetry is just too tidy here.

[Consigliere]

GRRM gave us that piece tot he puzzle. The ravens fly to their home, like homing pigeons. They must be carted to their origin before being released to fly home with their messages. There are maybe s vrty few which have two homes and can be told to fly to one or the other. But, if the Night's Watch is to send a raven to King's Landing, there is a specific bird which flies to King's Landing, having been brought from King's Landing to Castle Black, that they would use. The three birds that the Karstarks had while with Stannis were all raised at Winterfell, and would return there when released.

I understand how the raven thing works. As Ygrain mentions in her post - yet it never stopped any detractors (e.g. the issue of ToJ not being on the raven network, recently). What I wanted to know is what evidence is there to support these arguments from the detractors. Or is their arguments baseless.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I understand how the raven thing works. As Ygrain mentions in her post - yet it never stopped any detractors (e.g. the issue of ToJ not being on the raven network, recently). What I wanted to know is what evidence is there to support these arguments from the detractors. Or is their arguments baseless.

Basically I think it's baseless-- having ravens flying to to ToJ would require that a maester had trained them at that location. Since we apparently know the ToJ was an abandoned watchtower, the assumption by detractors that regular news was being delivered to the ToJ by raven seems like a much bigger leap than the typical RLJ assertion that ToJ was remote and without news (other than what may have come via messenger) for much of the Rebellion.

On a side note, it's certainly possible they could send messages by raven if they brought caged birds with them. So communication, if it existed, was most likely decidedly one sided.