R+L = J v 64

[Ygrain]

Yeah, tbh it didn't feel like a Twinslayer debate. More noobish. Weird coincidence though.

Perhaps a twin? :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Perhaps a twin? :P

:rofl:

Certainly as, hmmm... determined as each other.

[lareine]

I have struggled with the idea that Rhaegar managed to bring back the historical practice of polygamy in order to marry Lyanna, but there's no textual evidence that Rhaegar has his marriage to Elia set aside. I do think it's likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna exchanged vows, perhaps in front of the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces, on their way South. So as far as they and the two Kingsguards that witnessed it were concerned, it was a legitimate marriage. Whether the rest of the Kingdom, including Ned Stark, would have considered it a legitimate marriage is open to question.

At least two of the three KG at the ToJ were personally loyal to Rhaegar because they were his friends and it would probably have been enough for even Lord Commander Hightower to view Jon as the legitimate King as the only (known) surviving son of Rhaegar. Also, I think there may have been some misplaced survivor guilt on the part of the three for "failing" to protect the King, Prince Rhaegar, his first wife and two of his children. I think they considered their last duty was to protect Rhaegar's surviving son and heir.

As for what Ned knew about the status of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, my impression of the passage is that he was genuinely confused by the absence of the three KGs on the battlefield and surprised to find them in Dorne protecting the ToJ instead. The dialog in the fever dream supports the idea that they were doing their duty protecting their King but I don't know that it was immediately evident to Ned. I think it's likely that his conversation with Lyanna, during which he made her promises, she disclosed that she had married Rhaegar and their son was legitimate. It doesn't matter if Ned accepted the validity of the marriage or Jon's legitimacy because he loved his sister and would keep his promises and protect her son, regardless of Jon's true status.

So, I think at least Lyanna, LC Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent accepted Jon was the legitimate heir to Rhaegar, and King of the realm. The question is, would the rest of the realm accept it? It doesn't matter because the other Targaryens were dead or exiled and King Robert would have ordered the death of Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, if he'd known - legitimate or not.

Ned was loyal to Robert his King and friend, but he was disgusted by Robert's justification of child murder. He loved his sister and kept his promises to her by protecting her son, regardless of whether Jon was also a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne. The best way for Ned to remain loyal to Robert while protecting his nephew is to pretend Jon is someone other than who he is, and no threat to the King.

I really like your assesment Lady Mary, particularly the highlighted parts. It's the one that rings most true (to me at least) with the information we have at this time and I thought it was very insightfully written.

[J. Stargaryen]

On the other hand, Hightower had to get some clue where to go because right before the start of the Rebellion, no-one knows where to find Rhaegar. I've been wondering whether Rhaegar might have tried to reach out to Aerys when things went south and Aerys either ignored him, or even told him not to come back. I remember neither the book nor the exact phrasing, but wasn't it something to the accord of the Small Council convincing Aerys to swallow his pride and send for Rhaegar? That sounds as if Aerys had known for some time where Rhaegar was, or at least how to contact him, but was refusing to.

Rhaegar convinced Aerys to send for Tywin. I can't find the source at the moment.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Rhaegar convinced Aerys to send for Tywin. I can't find the source at the moment.

All our knowledge of that time comes from Jaime.

That particular episode is related in Storm, ch.37. The SC thing Ygrain referenced sounds vaguely familiar... I reckon that would be in Jaime somewhere as well.

Ygrain-- I just couldn't debate the doppelgänger anymore. The same person started in on another thread I was in too. Time to disengage. eta-- Apple turned up to answer when I had lost my patience with it. Yay!

[Alia of the knife]

I can see that. I've always thought they were hiding out from both parties: Aerys and Lyanna's family/the rebels. And it was only because Aerys wasn't around to override Rhaegar's orders that the three KG originally stayed put.

Yeah, I think that makes sense and is most consistent.

Exactly. I have actually argued that this is one of the reasons why the KG were ordered to stay at ToJ - not only to protect Lyanna but to prevent Aerys from overriding Rhaegar's orders and disclosing Lyanna's location.

It's same old the whole time - they start with incomplete information/imperfect grasp of the text, and stuff their ears to anything that we say. The all-time favourites are:

- the KG were at ToJ because they were following orders

- we don't know to what vow the KG were referring to

- we don't know what the KG knew or not

- the KG wanted to commit suicide by Northmen

- bed of blood can be anything

- GRRM said that polygamy was not possible

- Jon is the son of Ashara/Wylla/FMD

Supportive argumentation is: it is not stated in the books/ it is not stated that this didn't happen, I hate eeeevil Rhaegar, I don't want Jon to be king, I hate how people claim this as canon.

I've just heard from someone how the secret marriage is unrealistic, while the person had absolutely no idea about half the clues.

On the other hand, Hightower had to get some clue where to go because right before the start of the Rebellion, no-one knows where to find Rhaegar. I've been wondering whether Rhaegar might have tried to reach out to Aerys when things went south and Aerys either ignored him, or even told him not to come back. I remember neither the book nor the exact phrasing, but wasn't it something to the accord of the Small Council convincing Aerys to swallow his pride and send for Rhaegar? That sounds as if Aerys had known for some time where Rhaegar was, or at least how to contact him, but was refusing to.

That's a puzzle, because how did he know to go there, unless, and this just occurred to me, Rhaella knew, and she eventually told Aerys where he was. Shes mentioned so little, it's starting to make me suspicious.

[Han Snow]

Reading some of the counter arguments against Jon being legit a few pages back almost gave me an ulcer.

[Alia of the knife]

Reading some of the counter arguments against Jon being legit a few pages back almost gave me an ulcer.

Pour yourself a glass of Riesling and go watch Walking Dead, you'll feel better. :P

[Alia of the knife]

More and more, I view Hightower almost as the beginning of the end. :frown5:

But, while I do think there was some activity between the TOJ and Starfall with Ashara as liaison, I assumed that Starfall may actually be under scrutiny by the Martells and had to be VERY discreet, so I think Rhaegar got the full story of what was happening only when Hightower arrived.

And is it possible that Ashara didn't know that Brandon was dead yet until Ned told her after the events of the TOJ? :dunno: If Arthur knew that from Hightower, it may be something he chose to keep to himself until the right time to tell Ashara , except there never came a "right time" because Arthur died too.

I keep thinking of the song that Arya thought was "stupid" about the maiden who found out her "prince" was dead and threw herself from the tower.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Pour yourself a glass of Riesling and go watch Walking Dead, you'll feel better. :P

:agree:

Two glasses of "Dornish Red" later I feel much better about it all :D

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

Two glasses of "Dornish Red" later I feel much better about it all :D

And speaking of which, it's 8:59- time for WD and that Riesling.......... :drool:

[J. Stargaryen]

All our knowledge of that time comes from Jaime.

That particular episode is related in Storm, ch.37. The SC thing Ygrain referenced sounds vaguely familiar... I reckon that would be in Jaime somewhere as well.

Ygrain-- I just couldn't debate the doppelgänger anymore. The same person started in on another thread I was in too. Time to disengage. eta-- Apple turned up to answer when I had lost my patience with it. Yay!

Thank you, you are correct. :)

ASoS, Jaime V:

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

It was the "swallow his pride" portion that convinced me that this is what Ygrain meant.

[lareine]

And speaking of which, it's 8:59- time for WD and that Riesling.......... :drool:

You mentioned this show to me on another thread and I've really gotten into it too! I'm also going to have a nice glass of vino to unwind from then angst that is this thread...

[Lyse Stark]

I think this is another reason, thematically, Jon is legitimate. Part of the revelation of his parents is that it shakes him to the core, because it completely undermines everything he bases his identity on. Part of that identity is being Ned's son, and another part of it is being a bastard. While it will obviously be a shock to him to learn that he isn't Ned's son, I also don't see the point in him going from being one guy's bastard to another's.

Him being legitimate also means that quite a few "jokes" that GRRM has in the text make substantially more sense. One that immediately comes to mind is Jon not being allowed to spar with Joffrey, because bastards can't fight princes. The obvious (and by obvious I mean, intentional; GRRM knew what he was doing when he wrote it) joke is that Joffrey is the bastard and Jon is the prince (king), but it's a joke that only makes sense if Jon isn't a bastard.

Exactly. And unless I miss my guess we're about to see that theme revived to the nth power with fAegon and Jon.

Yep. And speaking of Joffrey and Jon, you also have the duality of a bastard passed off as the heir and the heir passed off as a bastard. The symmetry is just too tidy here.

I agree; Jon Snow think he is a base born bastard, and this condition is quite central to his identity struggle. Even if he finds out he's legitimate, I would still believe Jon would still associate with outcasts and misfits because he identifies with them, as a result of his childhood. And if my guess is correct, many of Jon's friends and allies are misfits themselves.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And you know this how, exactly?

The only person I ever see saying things like this, deciding which parts of the KG oath are more important than others, is Jaime. And we know that Jaime thinks about his oaths differently than others. So no, you can't assert that the TOJ three would have put "protect the king" ahead of "obey" in this situation with anything close to certainty.

Erm, is this a serious post??

I think the clues in the name KINGSguard. ie to guard the King, if Viserys is king they would have gone to him asap once they heard the news. Barriston did not go as he was captive and he chose to bend the knee to the new regime rather than die trying to get to Viserys whom he believed to be the now Targaeryan "king" a think he later refl;ects upona nd feels he was wrong in, he did not know about Jon. The three at the ToJ are staying because they are loyal Targ Kingsguard and they are guarding their king.

I really don't see how anytone can argue that obeying an order from a dead prince trumps guarding their actual King.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This argument is in defense of why the KG may have not been with Viserys if Jon is a bastard. And my point is that from Barristan's POV it could have been a reason based on the situation they were in, thats why they didn't go.

You keep saying Barristan didn't know where Dany is that's why he isn't protecting her, whiles he himself states that as his duty he should be searching for her but he isn't.

If the KG are protecting a trueborn heir then how did they know Jon and Lyanna married?

In Barristans situation he is clearly at odds with not going out searching for dany. He knows he is not remotely qualified to be out in teh Dothraki sea and that her Bloodriders. who are in a sense also Queensguard seen as they too are sworn to protect her with their lives, are far far more qualified to carry out the search whilst he is without doubt the most qualified to remain in mereen and defend her lands. Seen as he is the one with military command experience and the abillity to lead her army to victory. He doesn't like that he is not out there searching for his Queen but he knows it is the right thing to do so he does it.

[Ygrain]

In Barristans situation he is clearly at odds with not going out searching for dany. He knows he is not remotely qualified to be out in teh Dothraki sea and that her Bloodriders. who are in a sense also Queensguard seen as they too are sworn to protect her with their lives, are far far more qualified to carry out the search whilst he is without doubt the most qualified to remain in mereen and defend her lands. Seen as he is the one with military command experience and the abillity to lead her army to victory. He doesn't like that he is not out there searching for his Queen but he knows it is the right thing to do so he does it.

Not to mention that by removing himself from the communication centre he would actually extend the period for which she would be without his protection - the chances that he personally would run into her are minimum and he would be out of reach if someone else manages to find her.

[Alia of the knife]

You mentioned this show to me on another thread and I've really gotten into it too! I'm also going to have a nice glass of vino to unwind from then angst that is this thread...

You should try and see it from the beginning. Many people think it's just about zombies, which I personally hate, but it really isn't, it's about humanity struggling to hang on to it's morality.

Everyone is doing what they think is the right thing, but everyone gets it wrong, or makes the wrong call. I especially loved the quote from Steinbeck in regards to Hershel hanging on to his hope:

"a sad soul is far more dangerous and can kill quicker than any germ,"

But anyway, there is a WD thread under the entertainment forums, and I'm sure they'd appreciate your bio-chemistry skills. :D

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Not to mention that by removing himself from the communication centre he would actually extend the period for which she would be without his protection - the chances that he personally would run into her are minimum and he would be out of reach if someone else manages to find her.

Also this^^

[Ygrain]

One's gotta love the way the threads go, and the current one is a quintessence of everything I hate about the forums. First, "why were the KG at ToJ?" predictably degraded into "obeying orders is more important than protecting the king", and now we even have the delicious addition of "Rhaegar the blackhearted rapist" because "Lyanna wouldn't have willingly plunged Westeros into war only to be with a man". I think I should draw comfort from this the next time my students seem too slow to grasp the wonders of English grammar. Even the most knowledge-resistant class has never been so resistant.

Don't we have any rubies or something like that to discuss? My brain hurts.