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R+L = J v 64


Stubby

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You are entitled to your perspective, but you will not find much in the way of support. We all do stupid things for love, since we seem to put love above logic. In very many places it is revealed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Being dutiful with Elia, and the Aegon naming scene do not seem to be harsh or distant on Rhaegar's part until he says "There must be one more."

Well, I have no doubts that they loved each other. Dany loved Daario,too (or wanted him). I am not looking for anyone's support, as I already talk for few times. I'm just trying to figure out the timeline and the order of events. I suspect that abduction wasn't after the Aegon's birth and because we do not have a lot of true data and dates to confirm that.

I am also a little bit confused, for example, about Dany's birth: it is said she was conceived during the last month of rebellion and born in Dragonstone, so there were 9 months between the Sack and Dragonstone, and Ned went from Sack, to Storm's End, to Dragonstone and than to ToJ, where he found the KG.

I am confused as well about the rebellion: it is said that it lasted for about a year, but Dany was conceived during the last month of rebellion, before the Sack, but then their is the siege of Storm's End and Dragonstone, where the last fleet of Targs was ruined by the storm and where the pregnant Queen and the official heir Viserys were. So rebellion is something that ended in Aerys' death, but what about the last two battles? They do not include into rebellion?

How does all these fit together? Probably, Dany was conceived at some other time?

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Well, I have no doubts that they loved each other. Dany loved Daario,too (or wanted him). I am not looking for anyone's support, as I already talk for few times. I'm just trying to figure out the timeline and the order of events. I suspect that abduction wasn't after the Aegon's birth and because we do not have a lot of true data and dates to confirm that.

I am also a little bit confused, for example, about Dany's birth: it is said she was conceived during the last month of rebellion and born in Dragonstone, so there were 9 months between the Sack and Dragonstone, and Ned went from Sack, to Storm's End, to Dragonstone and than to ToJ, where he found the KG.

I am confused as well about the rebellion: it is said that it lasted for about a year, but Dany was conceived during the last month of rebellion, before the Sack, but then their is the siege of Storm's End and Dragonstone, where the last fleet of Targs was ruined by the storm and where the pregnant Queen and the official heir Viserys were. So rebellion is something that ended in Aerys' death, but what about the last two battles? They do not include into rebellion?

How does all these fit together? Probably, Dany was conceived at some other time?

Ned went directly from Storm's End to the ToJ. Dragonstone is Stannis' work.

Here is a good timeline of RR (set the scope to ADwD).

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Well, I have no doubts that they loved each other. Dany loved Daario,too (or wanted him). I am not looking for anyone's support, as I already talk for few times. I'm just trying to figure out the timeline and the order of events. I suspect that abduction wasn't after the Aegon's birth and because we do not have a lot of true data and dates to confirm that.

The implication of Aegon being a year old, give or take a turn (month) or two at the Sack is that he was born prior to any of the events of the Rebellion. It's in the text (and confirmed by SSM) that Rhaegar was present for Aegon's birth. It is also in the text that Rhaegar was absent from KL from the time of the abduction until his return after the Battle of the Bells. Unless you intend to build a case that that over a year passed between the Battle of the Bells (after which Rhaegar returned to KL) and the Sack, I don't see how it's up for debate that Aegon was born prior to the abduction. And if you make that case, of course you call into question the entire foundation of RLJ, since Rhaegar can hardly have fathered a child with Lyanna that was born within days or weeks of the Sack if he had been in KL for a year...

I am also a little bit confused, for example, about Dany's birth: it is said she was conceived during the last month of rebellion and born in Dragonstone, so there were 9 months between the Sack and Dragonstone, and Ned went from Sack, to Storm's End, to Dragonstone and than to ToJ, where he found the KG.

Ned did not go to Dragonstone. He went from the Sack to Storm's End, where there was no battle as Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners immediately, and then proceeded to the ToJ. That journey took him between 4 and 6 weeks according to the timeline established by the text and SSMs

I am confused as well about the rebellion: it is said that it lasted for about a year, but Dany was conceived during the last month of rebellion, before the Sack, but then their is the siege of Storm's End and Dragonstone, where the last fleet of Targs was ruined by the storm and where the pregnant Queen and the official heir Viserys were. So rebellion is something that ended in Aerys' death, but what about the last two battles? They do not include into rebellion?

How does all these fit together? Probably, Dany was conceived at some other time?

Dany was conceived about two weeks prior to the Sack. This is evident from information in the text. The Rebellion is considered over once Robert claims the IT- the Targs are finished and the rest is clean up work. Stannis goes to Dragonstone after he has raised a fleet, with the intention of seizing the last surviving Targs, who narrowly escape him. But this event isn't counted in the main rebellion timeline.

You're right that we don't have dates (as in day/month/year) but we have a lot of information that makes it possible to piece together an adequate timeline. Arya Kiddin' linked a timeline at ToH on the previous page. I have a couple of minor issues with that one, but it's a very good starting point. If you search Westeros, the Citadel offers a similar summary of events that at least provides a decent framework to start from.

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Alia, I don't agree. Nothing in the descriptions we are given shows us that Rhaegar loved frequenting brothels. It was not a giant torture he endured for the sake of honouring his wife. We are not talking about Robert Baratheon here. He practically lived in those well before his expected marriage to Lyanna.

And I was not talking about Rhaegar being in love or not. I am saying that even the most inconsiderate of men usually would not have risked upsetting their pregnant wife like this, in love or not. Usually, even those give a thought about the child. And Rhaegar didn't care about Elia but he cared about the comet child.

And if he didn't care about insulting Elia, why didn't he take Lyanna immediately after the tournament if "love is the death of duty" was already in place?

I think we have a miscommunication. :uhoh:

I didn't say he would frequent brothels, I said he would not be a man to frequent brothels or have mistresses. He didn't love Elia, but was fond of her, (and even Dany understood what "fondness" meant), however, absent love, he was still prepared to honor his vows to her- until something significant happened to alter his behavior in a profound way, which was meeting Lyanna.

Love is the death of duty, and it's a heart in conflict with itself and striving to want to do the right thing, but in the end, cannot.

In terms of the crowning, and understanding that it didn't always have romantic connotations, "honoring" her in such a way contradicts the need to hide her role as tQoLaB, bringing her to the attention of his father, the rest of the kingdom "where all smiles died," and the presence of his wife.

I think it is the power and desperation of wanting what the heart wants, because what he did actually puts Lyanna at risk as well.

On the subject of Elia, her condition and their place in society.

In those days, a woman of Elias status and the way she was brought up politically, certainly understood the necessity to secure the succession- both of them did, but in her case, I'm sure she would also understand the ramifications if she could not.

If the vision that we see is correct, I think that Elia understood exactly what Rhaegar was telling her when he said, "there must be one more," in light of knowing she was now barren.

It could be the prophesy, or it could be having a "spare to the heir," or both. But aside from the mysterious prophesy, having only one male heir as Rhaenys cannot inherit under current Westerosi law is not safe for the succession, and we know what Targaryen civil wars can bring.

On the subject of "prophesy:"

If we go by text, we don't know which prophesy specifically that Rhaegar might be referencing as it seems the Author has diversified the idea of "prophesy" according to different cultures, traditions and religions.

But what we do know according to the text is that everyone at Court, or in Rhaegars vicinity seemed to question Elias health which in Medieval-speak, is a polite allusion to her ability to give Rhaegar strong, healthy heirs, and indicate a desire for sons as according to Kevan on CerseI:

"if Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes." p.952 aDwD.

Given also that the Author has stated that he is a "low-magic, fantasy writer," and his negative views on religion, I imagine that the followers of prophesy, and those who live their lives by them will not fare well in this series, so hopefully Rhaegar hung his hat as much on the politically and dynastically pragmatic, as the prophetic.

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Thank you that someone finally says there's not even a guarantee that those visions played out that way. Or do you really think that Rhaegar turned his head toward Dany like he did? ;)

I think the visions have to handled with care given the warlocks malevolence towards Dany.

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Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brothers hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. Aegon, he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. What better name for a king?

Will you make a song for him? the woman asked.

He has a song, the man replied. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Danys, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. There must be one more, he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. The dragon has three heads. He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings.

I also wanted to add to the conversation about this vision (borrowing from Ygrain since she so nicely posted the passage :))

My reading of this is that this special child, the future king (he names him so in the first section) was born with his own song, a song that was written long ago. To me that indicates awe and pride rather than emotional disconnect. (My opinion, or interpretation, that I'm willing to concede may differ from that of others)

The fact that Rhaegar then picked up his harp and ran his fingers over its strings in no way indicates that he turned his back on his wife and child. Note the wording is he "went to the window seat..." In the absence of text giving the layout of the room or words to the effect of "he turned and went..." any interpretation that involves Rhaegar turning his back is an assumption. Interpretations are fine, as are personal opinions, but they should not be used as a basis for disproving other interpretations.

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Well, I have no doubts that they loved each other. Dany loved Daario,too (or wanted him). I am not looking for anyone's support, as I already talk for few times. I'm just trying to figure out the timeline and the order of events. I suspect that abduction wasn't after the Aegon's birth and because we do not have a lot of true data and dates to confirm that.

I am also a little bit confused, for example, about Dany's birth: it is said she was conceived during the last month of rebellion and born in Dragonstone, so there were 9 months between the Sack and Dragonstone, and Ned went from Sack, to Storm's End, to Dragonstone and than to ToJ, where he found the KG.

I am confused as well about the rebellion: it is said that it lasted for about a year, but Dany was conceived during the last month of rebellion, before the Sack, but then their is the siege of Storm's End and Dragonstone, where the last fleet of Targs was ruined by the storm and where the pregnant Queen and the official heir Viserys were. So rebellion is something that ended in Aerys' death, but what about the last two battles? They do not include into rebellion?

How does all these fit together? Probably, Dany was conceived at some other time?

Easy to figure out timeline, if you try to grok things. Jaime was 15 when he was at Harrenhal, and 17 when he killed Aerys. At least two years between the events. Aegon was one year old (give or take a turn or two (months?)) when he was killed during the sack. Stannis held Storm's End for not quite a year. Robb was born from Ned and Catelyn's wedding, just before the end of the war, since he is older than Jon. Jon was born within a fortnight of the sack, because Daenerys is born nine months after Jon, and her mother was on Dragonstone before the sack of King's Landing. Rhaenys was two, maybe three years old at the sack. Rhaenys was born at least six months before Harrenhal. There is a year of winter than follows Harrenhal (year of the false spring). Brandon duels with Littlefinger, who recuperates for a fortnight before being removed from Riverrun, and leaves for a "short errand". On his return is when he receives word that has him ride for King's Lading. The war lasted nearly a full year. The link I saw earlier had Brandon duelling with Littlefinger in 281, but it really was 282. GRRM let it slip that Littlefinger was horribly wounded at the start of the war, and had little to do with it.

The exact date of Ned and Catelyn's wedding is early during the war. It can be before or after the Battle of the Bells, there is contradicting references.

Daenerys was born "nine moons" after her mother went to Dragonstone. Ned went from the sack to Storm's End to lift the siege. Then he tasked Stannis with taking Dragonstone, and left for the tower. The Tyrell fleet, which had surrendered was sent to blockade Dragonstone while war galleys were built, which took a year. We do know that Aerys had raped Rhaella on the eve of the day that he roasted Lord Qarlton Chelsted alive, then Aerys made Rossart Hand of the king, which Jaime says was for a fortnight before he was slain.

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Can anyone give me the source for when GRRM said that he wouldn't changed anything from his original plan for the story? My friend's convinced that RL=J is not going to happen because too many people figured it out.

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

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Ned went directly from Storm's End to the ToJ. Dragonstone is Stannis' work.

Here is a good timeline of RR (set the scope to ADwD).

I think the order of events in this timeline is about right, but in the footnote it says 17 years had passed between Harrenhal (when Ned was 18) and the start of the novel (when Ned was 35). That means Harenhall was at least 2 years before the start of Robert's Rebellion - if Jon Snow was born within about a month of the end of war. I thought the gap between Harrenhal and Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna was closer to a year.

That doesn't change anything about what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna after the abduction, however.

ETA:

Easy to figure out timeline, if you try to grok things. Jaime was 15 when he was at Harrenhal, and 17 when he killed Aerys. At least two years between the events. Aegon was one year old (give or take a turn or two (months?)) when he was killed during the sack. Stannis held Storm's End for not quite a year. Robb was born from Ned and Catelyn's wedding, just before the end of the war, since he is older than Jon. Jon was born within a fortnight of the sack, because Daenerys is born nine months after Jon, and her mother was on Dragonstone before the sack of King's Landing. Rhaenys was two, maybe three years old at the sack. Rhaenys was born at least six months before Harrenhal. There is a year of winter than follows Harrenhal (year of the false spring). Brandon duels with Littlefinger, who recuperates for a fortnight before being removed from Riverrun, and leaves for a "short errand". On his return is when he receives word that has him ride for King's Lading. The war lasted nearly a full year. The link I saw earlier had Brandon duelling with Littlefinger in 281, but it really was 282. GRRM let it slip that Littlefinger was horribly wounded at the start of the war, and had little to do with it.

The exact date of Ned and Catelyn's wedding is early during the war. It can be before or after the Battle of the Bells, there is contradicting references.

Daenerys was born "nine moons" after her mother went to Dragonstone. Ned went from the sack to Storm's End to lift the siege. Then he tasked Stannis with taking Dragonstone, and left for the tower. The Tyrell fleet, which had surrendered was sent to blockade Dragonstone while war galleys were built, which took a year. We do know that Aerys had raped Rhaella on the eve of the day that he roasted Lord Qarlton Chelsted alive, then Aerys made Rossart Hand of the king, which Jaime says was for a fortnight before he was slain.

That sounds right, time-wise. About 2 years between Harrenhal and the end of RR, means there was about a year between Harrenhal and the abduction of Lyanna.

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Can anyone give me the source for when GRRM said that he wouldn't changed anything from his original plan for the story? My friend's convinced that RL=J is not going to happen because too many people figured it out.

Imo, no self-respecting author would so drastically change one of the main mysteries of his books just because he's a little slow in updating so people have figured it out before he's ready to spell it out himself.

Either you believe in the quality of his work, or you don't. :lol: He's not a teenage girl throwing a hissy fit because some here know about R+L=J. (I say 'some' because not everyone is convinced of the theory even over here, and the percentage of believers over here don't represent the readers that do not come into the forum, over there many less know about it. Theories over here spread like wildfire, and they just don't reach every person out there.)

Edit: Stop eating my spaces. :tantrum:

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Is it just me, or is this thread unusually quiet? :P

Yes.. a day and a half between posts? Unthinkable! ;)

In AGOT Ned dreams about Lyanna's statue weeping blood. Then in ADWD Jon dreams about Gilly weeping blood. Jon's dream is pretty explicit that Gilly is weeping because of the baby swap. So I think the fact Lyanna weeps blood is a hint she's crying for her child too.

Nice observation, especially in light of the other parallels that have been noted between RLJ and the Jon/Gilly baby swap.

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