R+L = J v 64

[Alia of the knife]

The Nights King gave the White Lady his seed, which implies there were offspring. However the Nights King was then overthrown by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. The current generation of Starks are descended from the Winterfell side, albeit through the female side after the intervention of Bael the Bard/Tam Lin to ensure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell.

So, that does away with the possibility that Jon would have that blood as well.

Thanks Black Crow! :bowdown:

[Black Crow]

But he is descended from Bael...

[Alia of the knife]

But he is descended from Bael...

:drool:

[Queen Alienor]

Hello everybody, I'm new here and a great supporter of R+L=J, but there is one thing I always thought was odd:

Why didn't Ned just say Jon is Brandons? It would have been way easier for him. Catelyn would probably not have been so hostile towards Jon, Ned's honour wouldn't have been questioned and there would have been a good explanation for Jon being raised alongside Ned's trueborn children: He is the last thing Ned has from his brother.

I haven't read all threads of this discussion, so I don't know if this has come up before (it probably has) but that always struck me as odd.

[Ygrain]

The Nights King gave the White Lady his seed, which implies there were offspring. However the Nights King was then overthrown by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. The current generation of Starks are descended from the Winterfell side, albeit through the female side after the intervention of Bael the Bard/Tam Lin to ensure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell.

Unless she produced an ice eqiuvalent of shadow babies... - Remind me once again, the Others are like white shadows, or do they have solid form?

Hello everybody, I'm new here and a great supporter of R+L=J, but there is one thing I always thought was odd:

Why didn't Ned just say Jon is Brandons? It would have been way easier for him. Catelyn would probably not have been so hostile towards Jon, Ned's honour wouldn't have been questioned and there would have been a good explanation for Jon being raised alongside Ned's trueborn children: He is the last thing Ned has from his brother.

I haven't read all threads of this discussion, so I don't know if this has come up before (it probably has) but that always struck me as odd.

Hello and welcome to the threads :-)

Because that would make Jon a good couple of months older than Robb while Ned is passing him off as younger, meaning he did look younger or approximately of an age with Robb as a baby and couldn't be passed off for older. Furthermore, it wouldn't help with Catelyn's fears of usurpation, as the older son's bastard would be an even worse threat. Lastly, Ned wouldn't besmirch his brother's honour like that.

[Ser Creighton]

So, that does away with the possibility that Jon would have that blood as well.

Thanks Black Crow! :bowdown:

Unless you speculate on Brandon Ice eyes. Interesting name for a character Martin tossed in there. The Others may have mated with humans as well, Craster has supposedly got the blood of the Others in him. Starks may as well, it's not like we know a whole lot about there history. But clues exists about it enough to at least tease the reader. Be odd for Martin throw in this many comments about Others and humans, tie it to the Starks and not use it for something. Can't really tell you what that something is but it is not out of the realm of possibility given the way Martin has subtly played with it. Even wrote a novella about a possible hybrid, a little girl with her Ice dragon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hello everybody, I'm new here and a great supporter of R+L=J, but there is one thing I always thought was odd:

Why didn't Ned just say Jon is Brandons? It would have been way easier for him. Catelyn would probably not have been so hostile towards Jon, Ned's honour wouldn't have been questioned and there would have been a good explanation for Jon being raised alongside Ned's trueborn children: He is the last thing Ned has from his brother.

I haven't read all threads of this discussion, so I don't know if this has come up before (it probably has) but that always struck me as odd.

Timeline doesn't work. Brandon was dead by the time Jon would have been conceived. And also Ygrain's reasons.

[Black Crow]

Unless she produced an ice eqiuvalent of shadow babies... - Remind me once again, the Others are like white shadows, or do they have solid form?

Personally I reckon that they are solid - Ice made Flesh. The misty bit isn't because they're insubstantial but because they are so cold the air condenses around them.

[Queen Alienor]

Hello and welcome to the threads :-)

Because that would make Jon a good couple of months older than Robb while Ned is passing him off as younger, meaning he did look younger or approximately of an age with Robb as a baby and couldn't be passed off for older. Furthermore, it wouldn't help with Catelyn's fears of usurpation, as the older son's bastard would be an even worse threat. Lastly, Ned wouldn't besmirch his brother's honour like that.

Thanks, I didn't think about that ;)

[Han Snow]

But he is descended from Bael...

Always forget the fact he is literally a descendent of the King Beyond The Wall. He comes from three different lines of kings, Targs, Starks and KBTW. The Conquerors, The Peacekeepers and the Free Men! Nice.

side note: And if Val herself is from Bael's line...that makes them kin! :D

Also Ser Creighton nice thoughts about that double resurrection. If he is really reanimated through both fire and ice, does that cancel the un-dead factor?

[BlackDragon]

My only problem is that how long would it take for Rhaegar and Lyanna to get from a place in the Between Harrenhal and Winterfell to the Tower of Joy which is in northern Dorne, i'm thinking probably a couple weeks to a month. Now in the first place why would Rhaegar and Lyanna do this considering they would both know what the reaction from their loved ones would be, There is both Brandon and Robert, hot-tempered and proven to act on the spur of the moment based on their passion. Wouldn't Lyanna guessed what her brothers reaction would be when he heard that Rhaegar "Abducted" her, and knowing that King Aerys is not exactly the most reasonably guy at this point in time, cause ya know of his craziness, that Aerys probably wouldn't tolerate any threats or anger directed at his family, that this might put him in danger. I guess you can assume that she did not know this or that she simply didn't care and left with Rhaegar regardless. Now back to the time thing, assuming that it took about a couple weeks to a month to get to the Tower of Joy, Brandon hearing about this probably within days of it happening rode quickly from Riverrun to King's Landing, this probably took a week to just under a week and he was promptly arrested soon after arrival for voicing his complaints, now by the time he heard about the "abduction" to his imprisonment probably a little over a week has passed, I do not think that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been in the Tower of Joy this fast. It is also hard to believe that neither Rhaegar nor the kingsguard with him at the time did not hear about Brandon's imprisonment and about Lyanna's fathers summons to King's Landing, before arriving at the Tower. Now assuming that Rhaegar is honorable, which we are lead to believe (besides the fact that he left his wife for another woman of course) do you think that Rhaegar. knowing that Lyanna's father and Brother are in a pretty sketchy situation with Aerys, wouldn't tell Lyanna about them. Lyanna hearing about her brothers and fathers situation probably wouldn't just say "oh f#ck them I am just going to spend time with my lover," she would probably want to help them in someway. Now this goes out the window if you assume Rhaegar didn't tell Lyanna about her families situation and the timing thing could just be an error on George's behalf. Now I do not think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex during their trip to the Tower, although I could be wrong, I do not think that she would have sex with him while her brother and quite possibly her father were in danger. Now I could be totally misreading the fact that Lyanna loved her family and would not wish them harm. Oh and sorry for the long paragraph just had a lot to say!

[Ygrain]

My only problem is that how long would it take for Rhaegar and Lyanna to get from a place in the Between Harrenhal and Winterfell to the Tower of Joy which is in northern Dorne, i'm thinking probably a couple weeks to a month. Now in the first place why would Rhaegar and Lyanna do this considering they would both know what the reaction from their loved ones would be, There is both Brandon and Robert, hot-tempered and proven to act on the spur of the moment based on their passion.!

Perhaps in an attempt to prevent exactly what happened anyway because Brandon acted on some incorrect information? We do not know what and from what source he learned but he went to KL screaming for Rhaegar who wasn't even there, which doesn't really make much sense.

Wouldn't Lyanna guessed what her brothers reaction would be when he heard that Rhaegar "Abducted" her, and knowing that King Aerys is not exactly the most reasonably guy at this point in time, cause ya know of his craziness, that Aerys probably wouldn't tolerate any threats or anger directed at his family, that this might put him in danger. I guess you can assume that she did not know this or that she simply didn't care and left with Rhaegar regardless.

That is 20/20 hindsight, I'm afraid. Hothead or not, if the culprit cannot be found, Brandon has no reason to personally go to KL, and either way, it's Rickard and not Brandon who is supposed to deal with the crisis. I don't think that this course of action could reasonably be predicted.

Now back to the time thing, assuming that it took about a couple weeks to a month to get to the Tower of Joy, Brandon hearing about this probably within days of it happening rode quickly from Riverrun to King's Landing, this probably took a week to just under a week and he was promptly arrested soon after arrival for voicing his complaints, now by the time he heard about the "abduction" to his imprisonment probably a little over a week has passed, I do not think that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been in the Tower of Joy this fast. It is also hard to believe that neither Rhaegar nor the kingsguard with him at the time did not hear about Brandon's imprisonment and about Lyanna's fathers summons to King's Landing, before arriving at the Tower. Now assuming that Rhaegar is honorable, which we are lead to believe (besides the fact that he left his wife for another woman of course) do you think that Rhaegar. knowing that Lyanna's father and Brother are in a pretty sketchy situation with Aerys, wouldn't tell Lyanna about them. Lyanna hearing about her brothers and fathers situation probably wouldn't just say "oh f#ck them I am just going to spend time with my lover," she would probably want to help them in someway.

And how would they hear? The news was hardly broadcasted around Westeros. They were travelling, their whereabouts unknown, no raven or messenger could reach them, and they most probably avoided settlements not to be recognized. They had no way of knowing.

Now this goes out the window if you assume Rhaegar didn't tell Lyanna about her families situation and the timing thing could just be an error on George's behalf.

Now, the option that Rhaegar didn't tell Lyanna is, of course, quite plausible, but even so, he wouldn't have known right away and learned probably only when it was too late to do a thing.

Now I do not think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex during their trip to the Tower, although I could be wrong, I do not think that she would have sex with him while her brother and quite possibly her father were in danger. Now I could be totally misreading the fact that Lyanna loved her family and would not wish them harm. Oh and sorry for the long paragraph just had a lot to say!

Wherever Lyanna was taken/eloped from, the journey took weeks, most likely in blissful ignorance. If they did marry before weirwood, e.g. on the Isle of Faces, they had no reason not to have sex.

[Ygrain]

On a side note: I've always found Hoster's assessment of Brandon's action pretty telling. "Gallant fool" is hardly a label one would slap on a rightfully enraged brother of a kidnapping and rape victim, no matter how stupidly he might behave. Also, it is curious to note that it is Brandon who gets the flak and not them black-hearted entitled Targaryens, right?

[FrozenFire3]

On a side note: I've always found Hoster's assessment of Brandon's action pretty telling. "Gallant fool" is hardly a label one would slap on a rightfully enraged brother of a kidnapping and rape victim, no matter how stupidly he might behave. Also, it is curious to note that it is Brandon who gets the flak and not them black-hearted entitled Targaryens, right?

:agree: The d...ragon is in the detail ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Unless you speculate on Brandon Ice eyes. Interesting name for a character Martin tossed in there. The Others may have mated with humans as well, Craster has supposedly got the blood of the Others in him. Starks may as well, it's not like we know a whole lot about there history. But clues exists about it enough to at least tease the reader. Be odd for Martin throw in this many comments about Others and humans, tie it to the Starks and not use it for something. Can't really tell you what that something is but it is not out of the realm of possibility given the way Martin has subtly played with it. Even wrote a novella about a possible hybrid, a little girl with her Ice dragon.

Yep, I have "The Ice Dragon," and always wondered if those themes would transfer over to aSoIaF which would be fascinating. I've always speculated that neither the Others or the dragons are "good," or "evil," but an extension of their masters will.

[Black Crow]

The interesting thing about Adara is that she could interact with the Ice Dragon because she had Winter inside her. Sansa Stark had her snowflake communion and Jon after toying with it may also have done so as he went down.

[Ser Creighton]

Yep, I have "The Ice Dragon," and always wondered if those themes would transfer over to aSoIaF which would be fascinating. I've always speculated that neither the Others or the dragons are "good," or "evil," but an extension of their masters will.

Well it is one universe, and I think it's fare to speculate. Plus there are some themes that we know exist like the 3 dragons from the south. We know of 3 dragons, and the timeline far pre dates the Targs arrival. Though when I look at the Ice Dragon it was pretty clear Martin Disneyed himself, much the way Disney took the dark Grimms fairy tails and suddenly you had talking mice, singing crabs and a Dwarf named Happy. But that doesn't mean there isn't a darker truth to the story.

I don't think Martin does anything without thinking about it first, he is very much a chess player always thinking several moves ahead. He likes to give clues but he also likes to mislead, basically he wants you to work for it. I think all the novellas tie into the main series and have their own clues to the main story. All the Dunk and Egg stories have clues and tie in to the main story. So why not the Ice Dragon, sure it's written like a child's story in a lot of ways, but some of the the old stories we have heard in the main series have major clues and direct tie inns.

How much of the Ice Dragon ties in, I do not know. And while the theme was children's story, the actually information from that book will probably have multiple clues, themes and direct parallels. The children's theme also allows Martin to give a little more in the way of clues as the information is disguised a little better.

Martin totally gets off on teasing fans, dropping clues, out thinking everyone, probably doesn't even take him that long to write the books. But his subconscious is evil by nature and wont allow him to finish quickly, it enjoys torturing the fans, it's like Forbidden Planet but with his books.

Anyway I can't imagine he wrote a book about the Westeros universe and didn't drop some clues in it to the main story. Now I have something else I must focus on, it rained on Halloween here so I have a ton of left over candy. About 15-20 pounds worth. I take it as a sign from god, he didn't want the little children to have it, he wanted me to have it, and to eat it and not share with anyone else. Not a fan of the gummie sweet tarts, so I might give them away but these carmel apple milkyways are killing me. And really whats the difference between a babyruth and a snickers? Time to try a white chocolate kit kat... Oh wow. I better stop, right after I have some mike and ike's and a rice crispy treat, ohhhh sour apple blow pop, damn peanut butter cups. Damn you reese's. In 2014 candy should really become the new health food. If chicken can taste like anything, why can't it taste like a peanut butter cup?

[JonNonRegis]

Though when I look at the Ice Dragon it was pretty clear Martin Disneyed himself, much the way Disney took the dark Grimms fairy tails and suddenly you had talking mice, singing crabs and a Dwarf named Happy.

Actually, it was the other way around. The Ice Dragon was written in the late seventies as a kiddie book and published circa 1980. Fifteen years or so later, GRRM darkened up some of the ideas in writing ASoIaF.

This is why ASoIaF -- a clearly adult series -- nevertheless contains certain place names that sound distinctly childish: "the Land of Always Winter." Those place names were originally created for a children's book.

[Black Crow]

No Ser Creighton has the right of it. The original version first published in 1980 was a growed up story inspired by a bad winter he'd just been through. It was the 2007 version which was sanitised, by cutting out the rape of Adara's sister and a couple of other bits in order to turn it into a children's story.

Connections have frequently been made and denied betwen the Ice Dragon and the Song of Ice and Fire and GRRM has, I understand, flatly denied that the Ice Dragon is set in Westeros.

My own take on this is that the Ice Dragon was conceived and written as a stand-alone story and remains so. However I also reckon that that GRRM has deliberately set out to develop some of the themes in the Ice Dragon, so that arguably although the two are not directly connected and never will be, it is legitimate to draw on it, with the strong caveat that in the intervening period he will obviously have decided to change or improve some aspects.

[Alia of the knife]

No Ser Creighton has the right of it. The original version first published in 1980 was a growed up story inspired by a bad winter he'd just been through. It was the 2007 version which was sanitised, by cutting out the rape of Adara's sister and a couple of other bits in order to turn it into a children's story.

Connections have frequently been made and denied betwen the Ice Dragon and the Song of Ice and Fire and GRRM has, I understand, flatly denied that the Ice Dragon is set in Westeros.

My own take on this is that the Ice Dragon was conceived and written as a stand-alone story and remains so. However I also reckon that that GRRM has deliberately set out to develop some of the themes in the Ice Dragon, so that arguably although the two are not directly connected and never will be, it is legitimate to draw on it, with the strong caveat that in the intervening period he will obviously have decided to change or improve some aspects.

I definitely have the sanitized version. I did not know about Adaras sister. :frown5:

Well it is one universe, and I think it's fare to speculate. Plus there are some themes that we know exist like the 3 dragons from the south. We know of 3 dragons, and the timeline far pre dates the Targs arrival. Though when I look at the Ice Dragon it was pretty clear Martin Disneyed himself, much the way Disney took the dark Grimms fairy tails and suddenly you had talking mice, singing crabs and a Dwarf named Happy. But that doesn't mean there isn't a darker truth to the story.

I don't think Martin does anything without thinking about it first, he is very much a chess player always thinking several moves ahead. He likes to give clues but he also likes to mislead, basically he wants you to work for it. I think all the novellas tie into the main series and have their own clues to the main story. All the Dunk and Egg stories have clues and tie in to the main story. So why not the Ice Dragon, sure it's written like a child's story in a lot of ways, but some of the the old stories we have heard in the main series have major clues and direct tie inns.

How much of the Ice Dragon ties in, I do not know. And while the theme was children's story, the actually information from that book will probably have multiple clues, themes and direct parallels. The children's theme also allows Martin to give a little more in the way of clues as the information is disguised a little better.

Martin totally gets off on teasing fans, dropping clues, out thinking everyone, probably doesn't even take him that long to write the books. But his subconscious is evil by nature and wont allow him to finish quickly, it enjoys torturing the fans, it's like Forbidden Planet but with his books.

Anyway I can't imagine he wrote a book about the Westeros universe and didn't drop some clues in it to the main story. Now I have something else I must focus on, it rained on Halloween here so I have a ton of left over candy. About 15-20 pounds worth. I take it as a sign from god, he didn't want the little children to have it, he wanted me to have it, and to eat it and not share with anyone else. Not a fan of the gummie sweet tarts, so I might give them away but these carmel apple milkyways are killing me. And really whats the difference between a babyruth and a snickers? Time to try a white chocolate kit kat... Oh wow. I better stop, right after I have some mike and ike's and a rice crispy treat, ohhhh sour apple blow pop, damn peanut butter cups. Damn you reese's. In 2014 candy should really become the new health food. If chicken can taste like anything, why can't it taste like a peanut butter cup?

That's a fair analysis.

While I have personal hopes that Jon would have his own creature :drool: that reflects him, I also think of it in terms of the natural world as a whole. It's a world before Men, and it was Men who suggested that those who came before them were "bad."

That's the reason I don't assign labels of "good and bad" to the dragons, or The Others. I think they are a reaction to, or a reflection of the crisis in their world.

On the candy, as long as that candy doesn't involve s'mores.

S'mores are right up there with peeps. :stillsick: