Rhaegar's secret

[jet199]

This is an idea I have had from noticing assumptions made on the forums but is not fully formed and I would welcome any constructive criticism based on evidence.

Some people have put forward the idea that Rhaegar worked out the PTWP must come from an ice and fire paring and this is the real reason he ran off with Lyanna. However there has, so far, been nothing in the text to indicate that this is part of the prophecy. What we do know is that Rhaegar probably believed "the dragon must have three heads" which he took to mean that he needed another child, something which couldn't happen with Elia. Clever Rhaegar then decides to risk his kingdom to impregnate a teenager, who he hardly knows, for the sake of a badly worded prophecy?

I would think that if Rhaegar was really desperate for another child he would have tried with as many women as possible because pregnancy, particularly in Westeros, is never a sure thing. I have noticed because people want to see R+L as special they are missing the hints Lyanna might not have been the only other woman in Rhaegar's life.

Take Ashara Dayne's "dishonour". I have see almost every one at the Harrenhal tourney linked to her but not Rhaegar. Barristan thinks-

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

This clearly states that Ashara's dishonourer was both someone she loved and someone who is dead by the end of Robert's rebellion. Unless it is a minor character that narrow it down to Rhaegar, Brandon and Aerys (although I am going to discount Aerys as I don't think he was her type). Barristan also thinks Ashara killed herself soon after her child was born. Now this makes the case for Brandon difficult to explain as Ashara's baby could not have been conceived at Harrenhal as there is probably two years between then and Ashara's death. So either the person who dishonoured her and the father of her child are two separate people or Harrenhal was just the start of an affair which continued for at least a year. Ashara was most likely living in Kings Landing and Dorne in the years after the Harrenhal tourney. What are the places we know Rhaegar definitely was at during that time, Kings Landing and Dorne.

One theory is that Elia agreed to Rhaegar taking Lyanna as a paramour because she knew Rhaegar needed another child. If Elia was OK with paramours then she may have tried to match Rhaegar up with one much earlier as their marriage was not a love match. Ashara would have fitted the bill perfectly, everyone loved her and she would be under Elia's influence.

"If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

Now the above can be read in various ways. What is clear is that Barristan thought that beating Rhaegar was the best way to impress Ashara but I think the main point is the reference to a Stark. Some people take this to mean that Ashara was upset so jumped into bed with Ned, I tend to read less into it and take it to mean that she confided in one of the Starks which would be unlikely if she was involved with one of them but may play a part in Brandon's behaviour later.

I decided to write this idea down because of a possible cuckolding which is being linked to Brandon:-

"Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin’s page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind."

To me this sounds nothing like Brandon and everything like Rhaegar. Poor Brandon has gotten himself a reputation as a northern version of Robert and people are looking for Brandon's bastards all over the place (even though GRRM said Brandon died before he had a son). This idea of him comes mostly from Barbrey Dustin's affair with Brandon but he gives her up when he is to marry Cat which is hardly the behaviour of a womaniser. We have quite a heavy hint that Domeric was unlike both the Boltons and the Starks, the ones we have met anyway, but when people debate his legitimacy the person he is most similar to is not even considered because people are looking for a dishonourable philanderer and Rhaegar is surely the opposite of dishonourable philanderer. Well he did do that thing where he ran off with the daughter of one of his Lords and abandoned his wife and children but that was for love or saving the world, right?

"He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels. Somehow he thought not"

The above line is often taken to mean that Rhaegar was honourable but it could just as easily mean that Rhaegar could have any woman he wanted or that he only slept with noble women. Cercei's POV shows he could even have temped her away from her beloved Jaime. Rhaegar's good looks and women's reactions to him are shown to us for a reason.

One mystery in the R+L=J theory how Brandon knew Rhaegar had taken Lyanna when she disappeared. If both instances above did turn out to be examples of Rhaegar getting noble women pregnant Brandon would have probably known about both of them and have an emotional involvement. Ashara may have confided in Brandon or Ned and if Ned he may have told his elder brother. If Domeric was Rhaegar's this would have got back to Brandon via Barbrey Dustin. So while many people in the Seven Kingdoms had a saintly view of Rhaegar Brandon's view would have been quite different. When reports came that Lyanna had been carried off at sword point, possibly by member's of the King's Guard, he did not go and investigate who could have taken her or make any attempt to try to find her. He went straight to Kings Landing to fight Rhaegar.

Some people think that Ned's honour may have been unusual in the Starks and that he may have learnt it from his time with Jon Arryn. This means that Brandon's behaviour is seen as hot tempered and stupid. But I think that Brandon's actions at King's Landing were driven by honour. In Westeros an injury to a noble woman's honour can be as dangerous to her as a physical injury. Brandon saw Rhaegar as a dishonourable person who had seduced women who he knew and cared about and then abandoned them. He assumed the same thing was playing out again and Rhaegar had to be punished. He never asks for Lyanna as he believes Rhaegar has easily seduced her and has no intention of harming her.

So how does this affect R+L=J. In truth not very much unless reports of Lyanna being kidnapped and her dying at the Tower of Joy are somehow lies but that is complicating things. But it does answer some questions. Rhaegar took Lyanna because of a non-specific prophesy, Daynes, Ryswells and Starks are all ancient families. Lyanna was probably in love or at least had a mad crush on him and thought he would be able to protect her and her family from scandal.

As to why Rhaegar risked so much, if he had already gotten away with seducing other noble women then he wouldn't think it was that much of a risk. The Daynes did not complain, why should the Starks? I think the "kidnap" was probably just the start of the seduction and Rhaegar believed he could lean on the Starks to keep it quite,But the Starks would not keep quite. As we have seen with other Starks Brandon acted morally and honourably and not only paid the price with his own life got everybody else in the shit as well. Due to Brandon not playing along and turning a blind eye Rhaegar took Lyanna down to Dorne where he knew they would.

It would mean Rhaegar did not take Lyanna because he though their child would be special, their child is special because he is the only one we know of who survived to accomplish something. Although if GRRM does want to undermine the bastard who becomes king trope then what better way to do it than to reveal there are actually a lot of other royal bastards out there that wont be king, this is already the case with Robert's children.

So to round up Rhaegars secret is not that he worked out the prophecy but that he was sleeping around and was doing so even before he found out he couldn't have more children with Elia.

This is only an idea but I do think at the end it will be shown that neither the rapist nor the saint version of Rhaegar is true.

[Eogh]

Something in the text that might indicate ice and fire as being part of the prophecy. In Dany's vision in the HoTD when Rhaegar says "he is the prince that was promised and his song willl be the song of ice and fire". Paraphrasing obviously, but something along those lines.

[alienarea]

This is an idea I have had from noticing assumptions made on the forums but is not fully formed and I would welcome any constructive criticism based on evidence.

Some people have put forward the idea that Rhaegar worked out the PTWP must come from an ice and fire paring and this is the real reason he ran off with Lyanna. However there has, so far, been nothing in the text to indicate that this is part of the prophecy. What we do know is that Rhaegar probably believed "the dragon must have three heads" which he took to mean that he needed another child, something which couldn't happen with Elia. Clever Rhaegar then decides to risk his kingdom to impregnate a teenager, who he hardly knows, for the sake of a badly worded prophecy?

I would think that if Rhaegar was really desperate for another child he would have tried with as many women as possible because pregnancy, particularly in Westeros, is never a sure thing. I have noticed because people want to see R+L as special they are missing the hints Lyanna might not have been the only other woman in Rhaegar's life.

Take Ashara Dayne's "dishonour". I have see almost every one at the Harrenhal tourney linked to her but not Rhaegar. Barristan thinks-

"But Asharas daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

This clearly states that Ashara's dishonourer was both someone she loved and someone who is dead by the end of Robert's rebellion. Unless it is a minor character that narrow it down to Rhaegar, Brandon and Aerys (although I am going to discount Aerys as I don't think he was her type). Barristan also thinks Ashara killed herself soon after her child was born. Now this makes the case for Brandon difficult to explain as Ashara's baby could not have been conceived at Harrenhal as there is probably two years between then and Ashara's death. So either the person who dishonoured her and the father of her child are two separate people or Harrenhal was just the start of an affair which continued for at least a year. Ashara was most likely living in Kings Landing and Dorne in the years after the Harrenhal tourney. What are the places we know Rhaegar definitely was at during that time, Kings Landing and Dorne.

One theory is that Elia agreed to Rhaegar taking Lyanna as a paramour because she knew Rhaegar needed another child. If Elia was OK with paramours then she may have tried to match Rhaegar up with one much earlier as their marriage was not a love match. Ashara would have fitted the bill perfectly, everyone loved her and she would be under Elia's influence.

"If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

Now the above can be read in various ways. What is clear is that Barristan thought that beating Rhaegar was the best way to impress Ashara but I think the main point is the reference to a Stark. Some people take this to mean that Ashara was upset so jumped into bed with Ned, I tend to read less into it and take it to mean that she confided in one of the Starks which would be unlikely if she was involved with one of them but may play a part in Brandon's behaviour later.

I decided to write this idea down because of a possible cuckolding which is being linked to Brandon:-

"Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustins page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind."

To me this sounds nothing like Brandon and everything like Rhaegar. Poor Brandon has gotten himself a reputation as a northern version of Robert and people are looking for Brandon's bastards all over the place (even though GRRM said Brandon died before he had a son). This idea of him comes mostly from Barbrey Dustin's affair with Brandon but he gives her up when he is to marry Cat which is hardly the behaviour of a womaniser. We have quite a heavy hint that Domeric was unlike both the Boltons and the Starks, the ones we have met anyway, but when people debate his legitimacy the person he is most similar to is not even considered because people are looking for a dishonourable philanderer and Rhaegar is surely the opposite of dishonourable philanderer. Well he did do that thing where he ran off with the daughter of one of his Lords and abandoned his wife and children but that was for love or saving the world, right?

"He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels. Somehow he thought not"

The above line is often taken to mean that Rhaegar was honourable but it could just as easily mean that Rhaegar could have any woman he wanted or that he only slept with noble women. Cercei's POV shows he could even have temped her away from her beloved Jaime. Rhaegar's good looks and women's reactions to him are shown to us for a reason.

One mystery in the R+L=J theory how Brandon knew Rhaegar had taken Lyanna when she disappeared. If both instances above did turn out to be examples of Rhaegar getting noble women pregnant Brandon would have probably known about both of them and have an emotional involvement. Ashara may have confided in Brandon or Ned and if Ned he may have told his elder brother. If Domeric was Rhaegar's this would have got back to Brandon via Barbrey Dustin. So while many people in the Seven Kingdoms had a saintly view of Rhaegar Brandon's view would have been quite different. When reports came that Lyanna had been carried off at sword point, possibly by member's of the King's Guard, he did not go and investigate who could have taken her or make any attempt to try to find her. He went straight to Kings Landing to fight Rhaegar.

Some people think that Ned's honour may have been unusual in the Starks and that he may have learnt it from his time with Jon Arryn. This means that Brandon's behaviour is seen as hot tempered and stupid. But I think that Brandon's actions at King's Landing were driven by honour. In Westeros an injury to a noble woman's honour can be as dangerous to her as a physical injury. Brandon saw Rhaegar as a dishonourable person who had seduced women who he knew and cared about and then abandoned them. He assumed the same thing was playing out again and Rhaegar had to be punished. He never asks for Lyanna as he believes Rhaegar has easily seduced her and has no intention of harming her.

So how does this affect R+L=J. In truth not very much unless reports of Lyanna being kidnapped and her dying at the Tower of Joy are somehow lies but that is complicating things. But it does answer some questions. Rhaegar took Lyanna because of a non-specific prophesy, Daynes, Ryswells and Starks are all ancient families. Lyanna was probably in love or at least had a mad crush on him and thought he would be able to protect her and her family from scandal.

As to why Rhaegar risked so much, if he had already gotten away with seducing other noble women then he wouldn't think it was that much of a risk. The Daynes did not complain, why should the Starks? I think the "kidnap" was probably just the start of the seduction and Rhaegar believed he could lean on the Starks to keep it quite,But the Starks would not keep quite. As we have seen with other Starks Brandon acted morally and honourably and not only paid the price with his own life got everybody else in the shit as well. Due to Brandon not playing along and turning a blind eye Rhaegar took Lyanna down to Dorne where he knew they would.

It would mean Rhaegar did not take Lyanna because he though their child would be special, their child is special because he is the only one we know of who survived to accomplish something. Although if GRRM does want to undermine the bastard who becomes king trope then what better way to do it than to reveal there are actually a lot of other royal bastards out there that wont be king, this is already the case with Robert's children.

So to round up Rhaegars secret is not that he worked out the prophecy but that he was sleeping around and was doing so even before he found out he couldn't have more children with Elia.

This is only an idea but I do think at the end it will be shown that neither the rapist nor the saint version of Rhaegar is true.

Nice.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Something in the text that might indicate ice and fire as being part of the prophecy. In Dany's vision in the HoTD when Rhaegar says "he is the prince that was promised and his song willl be the song of ice and fire". Paraphrasing obviously, but something along those lines.

If is Jon indeed is the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna than this would be the case.

1. Is the PtwP the same person as AA? Maester Aemon seems to think so, and so do I.

2. What other evidence could there be?

Many people out there seem to think Danny is tPtwP, because Dragon's hold no gender. But this could not be the case if she's watching Rhaegar holding his son.

The only character that could meet the Ice and Fire conditions would be Jon.

[alienarea]

If is Jon indeed is the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna than this would be the case.

1. Is the PtwP the same person as AA? Maester Aemon seems to think so, and so do I.

2. What other evidence could there be?

Many people out there seem to think Danny is tPtwP, because Dragon's hold no gender. But this could not be the case if she's watching Rhaegar holding his son.

The only character that could meet the Ice and Fire conditions would be Jon.

But Rhaegar left the ToJ before Lyanna gave birth (if she did, the child lived, and was a boy, ... ) and got himself hammered so he never held Jon.

[emmiko]

So, when and where did Rhaegar and Bethany conceive this child?

[Cauldhamer]

Rhaegar? Had relations with more than two ladies!? Blasphemy!! The fanboys/girls shall demand you're head!!
Nah, kidding but I like the idea that it could have been Rhaegar that dishonored Ashara.

[Eogh]

If is Jon indeed is the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna than this would be the case.

1. Is the PtwP the same person as AA? Maester Aemon seems to think so, and so do I.

2. What other evidence could there be?

Many people out there seem to think Danny is tPtwP, because Dragon's hold no gender. But this could not be the case if she's watching Rhaegar holding his son.

The only character that could meet the Ice and Fire conditions would be Jon.

Yeah, that quote alone connects the concept of ice and fire with tPtwP pretty clearly. Like outright states it. The actual quote is "He is the prince that was promised and his will be the song of ice and fire." I was pretty close initially haha.

[Wood_of_the_Morning]

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

This is not how I read the last phrase. Her 'grief' was not necessarily a response to the death of the man who dishonored her, bur rather 'grief' in context of him. Even the dishonoring itself may be in historical context. In other words, if she and Ned rolled in the hay - and she loved him, but ultimately he spurned her out of his duty to marry Catelyn, then she was full of grief over her loss of Ned, and that therefore, from a historical perspective, their 'bonding' at Harrenhal would subsequently be seen as dishonorable.

[The Others Take Ya]

Cool theory. I like how you put us in the shoes of what may have been motivating Rheagar, and set up a scenario that's true to the story. It also allows for the the fact that he could have been a bit more morally grey then everyone makes him out to be and in fact, he was a true ladies man. lol

I do agree Rheagar mentions the song of ice and fire and therefore he did know he need a union of ice and fire though.

I agree the description of Domeric sounds just like Rheagar. That is a really good catch. Could also be similar to Sansa though, in a way. Didn't she play the harp a little too? Really good evidence, but still circumstantial.

[Beathag]

This is not how I read the last phrase. Her 'grief' was not necessarily a response to the death of the man who dishonored her, bur rather 'grief' in context of him. Even the dishonoring itself may be in historical context. In other words, if she and Ned rolled in the hay - and she loved him, but ultimately he spurned her out of his duty to marry Catelyn, then she was full of grief over her loss of Ned, and that therefore, from a historical perspective, their 'bonding' at Harrenhal would subsequently be seen as dishonorable.

Barristam Selmy notes that Ashara threw herself off the cliff in grief over the still born child, and perhaps also over the man who betrayed her. Humorous that Catelyn was a second choice. Explains Ned silencing the whispers of Ashara Dayne in AGoT after Catelyn summoned the courage to ask him about Jon's mother.

[addicted to snow]

Very interesting... Domeric is described exactly the same way as Rhaegar...

Ned's Though about Rhaegar probably not frequenting brothels is even more interesting when you consider that Ned was frequently wrong & almost always overestimated the character of others...

[ghost00]

My first problem with your post is that you say 2 years past between Harrenhal and Ashara's baby now where is there any indication of the number of years only any outline of the order of the events.

1. was the events at Harrenhal

2. was Lyanna's kidnapping (whether she was kidnapped or not is still unknown, also how she was kidknapped doesn't make sense because she should have had guards)

3. Brandon goes to King's Landing

4. Lord Rickard goes to kings landing

5. Lord Rickard and Brandon are killed

- It is important to remember that while travelling by horse would take weeks or months, ships travel alot faster. We can't actually guess how long after the previous event the next happened. Also we don't know how long Brandon and Rickard were held in kings landing before they were killed

- this next part is easily to estimate the time

6. Eddard marries Cateyln and rob is conceived

7. Eddard ride to war with Robert

8. Eddard finds lyanna

9. Eddard takes bastard jon home to winterfell

10. Lady cateyln and baby rob (we know he is less than one from her memmory) go to winterfell where jon is already living

That means that from the time eddard marries cateyln and the war ends at least 9 months has passed. As I stated the events above are harder lyanna could have been taken days after harrenl if both starks travelled by ship and were killed instantly those event could have occurred in less than a month or they could have occurred in years. Its hard to say.

I agree that Rhager took lyanna for the third child and while I agree it would have made sense for him to take tons of other woman there is no proff of it at all. Every quote you posted clearly means other things and you are reaching to much. I agree that it would have made sense since Asha Dayne was Ellie's Lady and easily could have or would have slept with Rhager to give him a third chiwhose ld but that is never hinted to have happened.

I believe that Rhager married Elle because he thought she would give him the promised child. The lord of lights colours are the same colours as the house of Dorne. I don't know how he would have convinced Aryes to let him marry Elle but it seems he did. We know at a young age he learned of the prophecy in a book at first he thought he was teh choosen one and wore red, orange and yellow in tornaments. Then he married Elle whose family colours were red, orange and yellow.

As for Brandon being honourable we know that Brandon and Lyanna were wild and had more wolves blood while Ned was honourable. I could believe that Asha was with Brandon or Rhager or both but I don't believe Asha Danye would go to Brandon stark (unless she was sleeping with him) and ask him for protection from rhager

[Lord Browndodd]

I have often wondered about the Red Viper's comment that he and Elia were close like Jaime and Cersei - he would have been well aware of the actual nature of Jaime and Cersei's relationship thanks to Stannis. Chronologically I don't think it stacks up but it would have all sorts of interesting implications if true...

[Eira Seren]

When are we proposing that Rhaegar and Bethany met? Are we assuming it was at the Tourney of Harrenhall? If so, and Domeric is Rhaegar's, that would make Domeric a little over 15 when he died in 297. This puts his death a year before the Starks find the Direwolf pups.

How young are boys typically sent out in service? The wiki accounts for seven of Domerics' : 4 as a page in Barrowtown to Lady Dustin, and 3 after that as a squire to Lord Redfort. The wiki claims he spent those years "in the vale of Arryn," if we can take that at its word. That would put him at about 7 when he became a page, and around 11 when he became a squire, if we assume that he was able to spend roughly a year back in the North, or time enough in proximity to Ramsay to have become interested in him and seek him out. At what point would Roose want his heir out of fosterage/squiring and back at home as heir?

I can't find any accounts of when Roose and Bethany were married or whether they were at the time of the Tourney, but one might assume they were already married or became so shortly thereafter. The year after the Tourney, they were at war, so it might have been more difficult to explain to Roose how she became pregnant if he spent much time on campaign. For this timeline to fit, Domeric would have to have been conceived within a narrow window. I'm imagining if Roose didn't have wife #1 anymore, he was interested in having Bethany lined up (and knocked up) so that the Dreadfort would have an heir if he died in the war. Ramsay is more of a stopgap measure, and not one that he seems entirely pleased about.

Bethany and Rhaegar meeting prior to the Tourney is always possible; we aren't told how old Domeric is, are we? But then, I don't have the impression that Northerners spend much time at court, or that southerners spend much time North of the Neck.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

When are we proposing that Rhaegar and Bethany met? Are we assuming it was at the Tourney of Harrenhall? If so, and Domeric is Rhaegar's, that would make Domeric a little over 15 when he died in 297. This puts his death a year before the Starks find the Direwolf pups.

How young are boys typically sent out in service? The wiki accounts for seven of Domerics' : 4 as a page in Barrowtown to Lady Dustin, and 3 after that as a squire to Lord Redfort. The wiki claims he spent those years "in the vale of Arryn," if we can take that at its word. That would put him at about 7 when he became a page, and around 11 when he became a squire, if we assume that he was able to spend roughly a year back in the North, or time enough in proximity to Ramsay to have become interested in him and seek him out. At what point would Roose want his heir out of fosterage/squiring and back at home as heir?

I can't find any accounts of when Roose and Bethany were married or whether they were at the time of the Tourney, but one might assume they were already married or became so shortly thereafter. The year after the Tourney, they were at war, so it might have been more difficult to explain to Roose how she became pregnant if he spent much time on campaign. For this timeline to fit, Domeric would have to have been conceived within a narrow window. I'm imagining if Roose didn't have wife #1 anymore, he was interested in having Bethany lined up (and knocked up) so that the Dreadfort would have an heir if he died in the war. Ramsay is more of a stopgap measure, and not one that he seems entirely pleased about.

Bethany and Rhaegar meeting prior to the Tourney is always possible; we aren't told how old Domeric is, are we? But then, I don't have the impression that Northerners spend much time at court, or that southerners spend much time North of the Neck.

Eira - you seem to have a good grasp on the timeline of events. Would you humor me and give me some feedback on a crackpot idea that's floated through my head recently? (And obviously, I'd welcome feedback from anyone who cares to comment.)

I know the theory has been put forth that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I don't think that's likely, but the other day I started to wonder: could Tyrion be Rhaegar's son?

Would Rhaegar have been old enough to father a child? Could Joanna have seduced him?

(As I said, it's a cracked pot. But still I wonder...)

[Amoracchius]

Eira - you seem to have a good grasp on the timeline of events. Would you humor me and give me some feedback on a crackpot idea that's floated through my head recently? (And obviously, I'd welcome feedback from anyone who cares to comment.)

I know the theory has been put forth that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I don't think that's likely, but the other day I started to wonder: could Tyrion be Rhaegar's son?

Would Rhaegar have been old enough to father a child? Could Joanna have seduced him?

(As I said, it's a cracked pot. But still I wonder...)

I can't answer your questions, unfortunately, but I'm curious as to what got you thinking along these lines? I'm not sure I buy it, but it would certainly change the way I read the game of Cyvasse Tyrion and (f)Aegon played in ADWD.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I can't answer your questions, unfortunately, but I'm curious as to what got you thinking along these lines? I'm not sure I buy it, but it would certainly change the way I read the game of Cyvasse Tyrion and (f)Aegon played in ADWD.

Ha - that's true. I'm not sure I buy it myself, and my wondering is based on the number of indirect contextual pointers I continue to see, tying Tyrion to the Targs/dragons. I'm not making an argument for it, just asking around. :)

[Tyryan Lannister]

I know the theory has been put forth that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I don't think that's likely, but the other day I started to wonder: could Tyrion be Rhaegar's son?

Would Rhaegar have been old enough to father a child? Could Joanna have seduced him?

(As I said, it's a cracked pot. But still I wonder...)

It is theoretically possible... from the wiki's on Tyrion and Rhaegar:

Rhaegar: born 259AL

Tyrion: born 274AL

I can't find a definitive date for the time when Aerys went west and rebuked Tywin's offer of Cersei for Rhaegar, but, if it was before Tyrion was born (and when Cersei was roughly 7-8), then it could have occurred roughly 9 months before Tyrion was born. I believe Cersei recalls herself as being 10 at the time (it was the same event during which she visited Maggie the Frog), but her memory could be faulty

Despite these possibilities, I, too, remain unconvinced that Tyrion is anyone but Tywin's son.

[Eira Seren]

I know the theory has been put forth that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I don't think that's likely, but the other day I started to wonder: could Tyrion be Rhaegar's son?

Would Rhaegar have been old enough to father a child? Could Joanna have seduced him?

(As I said, it's a cracked pot. But still I wonder...)

Theoretically, it's possible (Rhaegar would've been about 15 when Tyrion was born).

I'm not a Tyrion is a secret Targ theorist, but again, the test is can it be supported in the text. Right now, everything I can think of may point as far as Tyrion could have Targ genes, not that anything specifically points to Rhaegar.

If anything, right now the strongest case, imo, would be that the text suggests that Aerys would be a more likely candidate: he had a reputation for raping his own wife, and took some "liberties" with Joanna on her wedding night. That event is the wrong time frame for Tyrion to be conceived. However, once Tywin and Aerys had their falling out, it's easy to speculate that Aerys took it out on her.

But, again, what do the timelines support? We know Tywin stayed out of Robert's Rebellion until the last minute, so when did he leave KL? What, if any, suggestions do we have that Joanna would have wanted to stray from her marriage?