Controversial Chapter?

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

1. It doesn't matter. Just as claim to the throne can be subverted by military power, so can Sansa's claim to the North be subverted by historical allegiances. Sansa revealing herself at her wedding would cause a freaking uproar. Every single Knight there would bend their knees and swear to rip Ramsay Bolton's face off. This is real power, here, and the Stark family still has it. These knights couldn't care less of her legal claim to the North.

2. I don't understand your point, here. He wouldn't risk his alliance with the Lannisters but they aren't even in control anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Littlefinger will get his armies by marrying Sansa off to Harry, that is his plan.

3. The Lannisters are in no position to be dictating terms, and the Tyrells owe the Freys nothing. In fact, the Freys are in deep doodoo no matter what. The Lannisters themselves were conspiring to punish the Freys to preserve appearances, if the armies of the Vale and the North wipe the Freys from the face of the Earth, the Tyrells will likely commend them, and accept them willingly into their kingdom.

4. The Vale remained neutral because of Lysa Arryn as part of the first phase of Littlefinger's plan. His goal is to control the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale because he has designs on the IT himself.

Politics, Andal anxiety and LF shenanigans aside.....

Sansa = pawn = yawn (how much more of that can we take?)

So says Sansa....(maybe)...in TWoW:

"Poor SR...come look at this stallion...isn't he beautiful? Now, just stand right there, behind him....doesn't he have such strong legs?"

"So Mya, give me the scoop on the Royces. Why don't they like the Tyrells? What are you and Lothor doing later?"

"Dear father, our friend, Brynden, has come to visit. Do you remember him? He's pissed."

:D

[LynnS]

I have to ask myself, as the reader, what would I find most shocking and unexpected. The Ghost of High Heart says:

And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

If Robin is the "giant" in the sense that he knocks down Sansa's snow model of Winterfell; then the dreams of the Ghost of High Heart would seem to apply to Robin figuratively. So the most unexpected and shocking thing to me would be Sansa dispatching Robin during their descent from the Eyrie. Either directly or indirectly allowing him to fall off the stone bridge that scared Catelyn so badly. That also depends on one's interpretation of the castle made of snow. The second waycastle to the Eyrie is called Snow and it's paths to the third waycastle (Sky) are treacherous and open to the winds, etc.

That Sansa would just let him "fly" would be shocking since in her last POV; we don't get the sense that she has any such thing in mind or harbors that kind of animosity towards Robin. At the moment, I'm expecting her to help Robin down from the Eyrie; not do away with him immediately in such a cold blooded and gruesome way.

If this is the case; it would seem to be a calculation on her part. So the question becomes how would this change the balance of power between Sansa and Littlefinger? Is this her first move in the game that Petyr is playing with her? Does this throw Littlefinger off balance? How does it change Petyr's plans and give Sansa leverage?

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I have to ask myself, as the reader, what would I find most shocking and unexpected. The Ghost of High Heart says:

And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

If Robin is the "giant" in the sense that he knocks down Sansa's snow model of Winterfell; then the dreams of the Ghost of High Heart would seem to apply to Robin figuratively. So the most unexpected and shocking thing to me would be Sansa dispatching Robin during their descent from the Eyrie. Either directly or indirectly allowing him to fall off the stone bridge that scared Catelyn so badly. That also depends on one's interpretation of the castle made of snow. The second waycastle to the Eyrie is called Snow and it's paths to the third waycastle (Sky) are treacherous and open to the winds, etc.

That Sansa would just let him "fly" would be shocking since in her last POV; we don't get the sense that she has any such thing in mind or harbors that kind of animosity towards Robin. At the moment, I'm expecting her to help Robin down from the Eyrie; not do away with him immediately in such a cold blooded and gruesome way.

If this is the case; it would seem to be a calculation on her part. So the question becomes how would this change the balance of power between Sansa and Littlefinger? Is this her first move in the game that Petyr is playing with her? Does this throw Littlefinger off balance? How does it change Petyr's plans and give Sansa leverage?

They are already down from the Eyrie though...

[Le Cygne]

Biggest Sansa fandom subset I can think of would be the SanSan people... maybe she tells LF that she hates The Hound. x]

Since he fact checked at the end before, I think it's the same chapter he was referring to that he said Sansa fans would like (the one that was held back from ADWD). Most Sansa fans want Sandor and Sansa to get together because Sansa seems to want him (we see it as a choice she's making, even if only in her thoughts and dreams at present). So if she made a different choice, that would be the same, her choice. Not controversial. Romance is no good if it's not mutual. I think it's very likely he's building up to something happening between them, though, so I don't expect him to change course.

[LynnS]

They are already down from the Eyrie though...

Hah! You're right. How did I miss that entire trek down the mountain? LOL! Clearly, age and memory don't go together.

[LynnS]

Well then, how about some possible foreshadowing?

A Clash of Kings Chapter 11 - Davos. Melisandre is burning the gods on the beach and Davos observes:

The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos they'd been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled. "Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R'hllor," Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates.

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was a live with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

Catelyn could easily stand as the Mother figure heart pierced with a fiery sword symbolic or her death and resurrection as Stoneheart; while Eddard the Father who is fallen first. The stranger with his burned hand a possible allusion to Jon Snow's burned hand and the possibility that he will have "blackened fingers" at some point?

The Maiden (Sansa) laying athwart the Warrior, arms widespread as if to embrace him.

The definition of athwart:

adverb: athwart

1.

across from side to side; transversely.

"one table running athwart was all the room would hold"

2.

so as to be perverse or contradictory.

"our words ran athwart and we ended up at cross purposes"

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Well then, how about some possible foreshadowing?

A Clash of Kings Chapter 11 - Davos. Melisandre is burning the gods on the beach and Davos observes:

The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos they'd been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled. "Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R'hllor," Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates.

The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was a live with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

Catelyn could easily stand as the Mother figure heart pierced with a fiery sword symbolic or her death and resurrection as Stoneheart; while Eddard the Father who is fallen first. The stranger with his burned hand a possible allusion to Jon Snow's burned hand and the possibility that he will have "blackened fingers" at some point?

The Maiden (Sansa) laying athwart the Warrior, arms widespread as if to embrace him.

The definition of athwart:

adverb: athwart

1.

across from side to side; transversely.

"one table running athwart was all the room would hold"

2.

so as to be perverse or contradictory.

"our words ran athwart and we ended up at cross purposes"

So what was your idea then? Who would that make the Warrior?

[LynnS]

So what was your idea then? Who would that make the Warrior?

I have no idea who "the savage giant" will turn out to be. I just don't see Robin as "savage" in any sense of the word. Petyr does have the second sigil of the giant's head and I guess he could be called ruthless and savage but I don't see him as a warrior in the typical sense of the word. Whereas warriors could be considered to have a savage mindset. Or perhaps there are certain tribes that are considered savages like the wildlings. The imagery of the warrior embraced athwart by the maiden would seem to imply that she makes an appearance of embracing the warrior while working at cross purposes. The controversial nature might depend on the identity of the warrior and the location of the snow castle. If the snow castle is Winterfell, in who controls it.

I'll put it out there in the event that it twigs something for someone else or fits their view of what might happen. I'm curious about what others think might be implied by the scene of the gods burning.

ETA: On another note, I would be most shocked if Sansa dispatches Rickon. He is perhaps the most savage of the Starks and Shaggy Dog is dangerous and out of control a reflection of Rickon. Or has Rickon become too much the direwolf? A giant doesn't have to be big in stature; they just have to cast a large shadow. Can a direwolf be considered a savage giant as well? Will Rickon think he is a warrior? Has he become a feral boy fighting for his life on Skagos?

It would be an interesting connection between Davos' view of the burning gods and his quest to retrieve Rickon. Perhaps Davos is the Stranger in this context with his fingers burning off.

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

ETA: On another note, I would be most shocked if Sansa dispatches Rickon. He is perhaps the most savage of the Starks and Shaggy Dog is dangerous and out of control a reflection of Rickon. Or has Rickon become too much the direwolf? A giant doesn't have to be big in stature; they just have to cast a large shadow. Can a direwolf be considered a savage giant as well?

It would be an interesting connection between Davos' view of the burning gods and his quest to bring back Rickon. Perhaps Davos is the Stranger in this context with his fingers burning off.

Wow...I didn't see the Rickon factor coming....

Regarding any Sansa "controversy", I think we need to know what Elio finds "controversial," since he first applied the term to the chapter, in order to pursue further. Does he consider mercy killing controversial? Rape? First sexual experience, possibly lesbian? Acquiescence? Intestinal fortitude? Inaction? Family/Blood betrayal? Human bartering? All of these are very clear and present in ASoI&F. What is really controversial about Sansa in the Vale?

[Edit] Personally, what I find most controversial about this thread is the fact that the thread's title has been misspelled for two days and no one has corrected it! :stunned:

[LynnS]

Wow...I didn't see the Rickon factor coming....

Regarding any Sansa "controversy", I think we need to know what Elio finds "controversial," since he first applied the term to the chapter, in order to pursue further. Does he consider mercy killing controversial? Rape? First sexual experience, possibly lesbian? Acquiescence? Intestinal fortitude? Inaction? Family/Blood betrayal? Human bartering? All of these are very clear and present in ASoI&F. What is really controversial about Sansa in the Vale?

I think Elio will keep that close to his chest and stir the pot some more. LOL.

[Petyr Patter]

1. Accepting her marriage to Tyrion Lannister.

Rejecting any sort of love with Sandor Clegane.

Poisoning a large dinner of Littlefinger allies and supporters, possibly killing some innocents in the process.

These are the sort of things that would be highly controversial for certain sections of the the fans.

[Alhazred]

It could be literally anything. How can I guess what Ran thinks other fans might think will be controversial? There's a lot of Sweetrobin-hate on these boards. Perhaps Sansa saving Sweetrobin's life will be controversial with some segments of the fandom.

[Knight of the Teabags]

A thought I had a while back regarding a direction Sansa's story could take which would be controversial with certain sections of the fandom comes from a rather different perspective, but echos right back to her very first chapter. What is also interesting is that if anything it involves Sansa in a very certain way reaffirming her identity as a Stark.

Two points lead me to these thoughts. The first are some comments GRRM made at one of his Q/A sessions regarding the Stark children and their relative abilities as wargs/skinchangers where he said all six Stark children are full wargs and specifically added even Sansa.

The other comes in relation to this when you consider some of the revelations we learn about the capibilities of skinchangers from a Varamyr prologue.

(1) Animals which have already had a 'connection' with another skinchanger are more tractable to becoming bound to others. In some cases abandoned previously warged animals are drawn to other skinchangers. Notice how Varamyr's wolves later on seem to 'fall in' behind Summer when Bran shows up.

(2) Skinchangers can attempt to take over other skinchangers' animals - apparently even when that person is present. Varamyr thinks about how he wishes he had tried 'drive' Jon out of Ghost for instance.

Now how does this become a controversial Sansa chapter? There is as we know a female direwolf in the Riverlands who has a previous connection with a skinchanger. Of the characters with warg potential (that we know of) in the story the one geographically closest to that direwolf is Sansa and the owning warg is currently the other side of the narrow sea in Braavos. Others have speculated that the activities of other characters around Sansa may take her into the Riverlands in the near future.

Let's say while she does so Sansa starts experiencing wolf dreams which she instinctively feels she could feel more vividly if she were only 'to push something obstructing out of the way'. So she gives into instinct and lonely warg girls meets lonely direwolf and complete each other. However on the other side of the narrow sea another lonely warg girl has just lost part of herself...

[Newstar]

[Edit] Personally, what I find most controversial about this thread is the fact that the thread's title has been misspelled for two days and no one has corrected it! :stunned:

I think it's board policy that nitpicking others' spelling/grammar mistakes is a dick move. I think everyone noticed it, just that no one wanted to be the one to point it out.

I think Elio will keep that close to his chest and stir the pot some more. LOL.

If anything, we'll get a "I had no idea everyone would jump on that comment/I never meant anything significant by it/I take it all back!/Ugh, I wish I'd never said anything, I swear to God..." :D

It could be literally anything. How can I guess what Ran thinks other fans might think will be controversial?

Exactly! It's a deliciously maddening riddle. Something that might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. It's somehow both oddly specific--some quarters of the fandom, but not others?--and impossibly vague, as all good riddles are. Thus the interest.

Here's the relevant quote from Elio, from the original Westeros.org thread from back in April 2013 when the Vulture interview was published online (emphasis mine):

As with all interviews, sometimes bits get cut to tighten it up... I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

[Annara Snow]

1. Accepting her marriage to Tyrion Lannister.

Rejecting any sort of love with Sandor Clegane.

Poisoning a large dinner of Littlefinger allies and supporters, possibly killing some innocents in the process.

These are the sort of things that would be highly controversial for certain sections of the the fans.

You're confusing "controversial" with "completely out of character and contrary to the character's arc so far".

[LynnS]

Let's say while she does so Sansa starts experiencing wolf dreams which she instinctively feels she could feel more vividly if she were only 'to push something obstructing out of the way'. So she gives into instinct and lonely warg girls meets lonely direwolf and complete each other. However on the other side of the narrow sea another lonely warg girl has just lost part of herself...

Good stuff! It would certainly be a betrayal. I'm inclined to think that Sansa hasn't developed her warg or skinchanging skills at all and that Arya would be the stronger personality and that her ability to warg across the sea is a demonstration of her ability. Unless, Nymeria decides to connect with Sansa. It's possible they may both use Nymeria at different times. Lots of possibilities for sure. That could set up Bran to communicate with both Arya and Sansa using Nym in the same manner that he connects to Jon using Ghost..

[aryagonnakill]

A thought I had a while back regarding a direction Sansa's story could take which would be controversial with certain sections of the fandom comes from a rather different perspective, but echos right back to her very first chapter. What is also interesting is that if anything it involves Sansa in a very certain way reaffirming her identity as a Stark.

Two points lead me to these thoughts. The first are some comments GRRM made at one of his Q/A sessions regarding the Stark children and their relative abilities as wargs/skinchangers where he said all six Stark children are full wargs and specifically added even Sansa.

The other comes in relation to this when you consider some of the revelations we learn about the capibilities of skinchangers from a Varamyr prologue.

(1) Animals which have already had a 'connection' with another skinchanger are more tractable to becoming bound to others. In some cases abandoned previously warged animals are drawn to other skinchangers. Notice how Varamyr's wolves later on seem to 'fall in' behind Summer when Bran shows up.

(2) Skinchangers can attempt to take over other skinchangers' animals - apparently even when that person is present. Varamyr thinks about how he wishes he had tried 'drive' Jon out of Ghost for instance.

Now how does this become a controversial Sansa chapter? There is as we know a female direwolf in the Riverlands who has a previous connection with a skinchanger. Of the characters with warg potential (that we know of) in the story the one geographically closest to that direwolf is Sansa and the owning warg is currently the other side of the narrow sea in Braavos. Others have speculated that the activities of other characters around Sansa may take her into the Riverlands in the near future.

Let's say while she does so Sansa starts experiencing wolf dreams which she instinctively feels she could feel more vividly if she were only 'to push something obstructing out of the way'. So she gives into instinct and lonely warg girls meets lonely direwolf and complete each other. However on the other side of the narrow sea another lonely warg girl has just lost part of herself...

I've thought about Sansa warging a falcon, the Aryn sigil, or Rickon dying and shaggydog becoming Sansa's.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I tend to interpret the "savage giant" as Littlefinger since the Baelish sigil used to be the Titan of Braavos. That could be wishful thinking since I'm of the lemoncake persuasion. :D

[TheReal_Rebel]

Would anyone apart from maybe Littlefinger stans have a problem with Sansa killing Littlefinger, regardless of her reasons? He deserves to die for what he did to Jeyne Poole alone.

I think the fandom reaction would depend on the form her "proactive" actions takes:

Killing LF? Awesome.

Competently plotting LF's downfall? Awesome.

Saving Sweetrobin? Awesome.

Corralling the Vale's resources to the North's aid? Awesome.

And so on. However, I can imagine the fandom reaction being decidedly more mixed, or even on the whole negative, if her "proactive" action takes the following shapes:

Plotting to murder Sweetrobin? Awful.

Murdering Sweetrobin? Awful.

Plotting LF's downfall or some or other scheme, but making a total botch of it (a la Arianne's "crowning" scheme)? Awful.

Going against the Starks/North? Awful.

Freely and consciously (as opposed to the Marillion issue) throwing innocents under the bus to advance Littlefinger's schemes? Awful.

And so on.

Thoroughly agree with all of the above!

[Cruella]

Biggest Sansa fandom subset I can think of would be the SanSan people... maybe she tells LF that she hates The Hound. x]

Maybe she starts liking Harry the Heir... ;)