Miryana Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Rescuing Brienne? Bloodlessly resolving the conflict in the Riverlands? Sending Brienne to find Sansa? The stuff you've said is true, but "a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good." Rescuing Brienne is the one good thing Jaime has done. He can't get any credit for bloodlessly ending the conflict when he so gleefully participated in creating that conflict and making the Riverlands bleed after his brother got the blame for his attempted murder of Bran. Which is also the reason why Sansa has needed rescuing, since Jaime's decision to shag the queen under her father's roof led to the unravelling of the incest secret and the destruction of her family by his. Jaime is picking up some of the pieces, but how much credit does he really deserve for that when he was the one who smashed it apart in the first place? Brienne's return and their departure to "save Sansa" is the first time Jaime is actively doing something that's not prioritised as #1 Lannister interests, #2 Jaime's chances of getting to feel he's being good and honourable, and #3 trying not to further hurt his victims as long as it can be done while also ensuring they don't get justice or their property back. Jaime's reaction to Catelyn will be very telling. If the new and supposedly improved Jaime still continues his tradition of mocking his victims and complaining that he's been wronged when faced with something as unprecedented as an undead avenger, it'll show that his redemption is only skin deep. If he accepts Catelyn's judgement, it would mean that he would finally show a victim of his some respect and think about their losses and feelings instead of his own. But I know this is a matter of perspective. Personally, I don't think there's any way to come back from the enormity of the selfish choices Jaime has made of his own free will, just as Aerys having an unexpected fit of remorse and devoting the rest of his life to meditation and charity wouldn't have made him a good man if he'd managed to burn King's Landing to the ground. Aerys couldn't have been a good man, and Jaime won't be a true knight. For Jaime, IMO, the question is how far he is going to accept responsibility for his choices and their consequences. He has to get away from his absurd Goldenhand the Just delusions and self-congratulation over how threatening Edmure's baby allowed him to deliver Catelyn's childhood home to her murderers without any more of her family being killed and mutilated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 off topic, but i would have loved to see Ser Arthur Dayne's page to see what other things he did to make him so infamous. Still barry didn't have much to write about jamie despite the fact that he hated him, hell most of his accomplishments were written down by the white bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I guess it could be chalked up to different writing styles, but Hightower described more of Barristan's tournament victories than Barristan did of Jaime's. I don't know if that's because Barristan wasn't as much of a writer or what. Jaime kind of got short-changed in that regard. Unless we're supposed to know about some guy named the "Bastard of Uplands." Well, I wouldn't value tourneys either, though winning one as a 57 year old was definitely worth an entry. Maybe Jaime didn't particularly distinguish himself in the whole Greyjoy Rebellion thing, Robert was still roaring back then and would have swallowed the limelight. Since then not a lot has happened that he should be proud of. I suppose he could write that he did a lot to help clean up the mess he helped to create in the Riverlands, though that won't mean much as an army of Wights rise from all the dead from the war and the famine that later claimed the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im317 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 am i the only one who thinks Barristan's last entry was actually "Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age." i feel like winning the tourney is only there to put his 'advanced age' into perspective and is not something he would have written when it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovinRC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Whats priceless was that Barristan actually bothered to write down his dismissal :lmao: . One of my favorite parts in the books. Loved it, but I also think this was the beginning of Jaime's redemption. He started to take a hard look at his life and it was about time. I have never hated and loved a character more. Hope he redeems himself by the end of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Hey, if he wanted to fellate himself then there's a lot more material he could have drawn from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheswamp Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I assume that both knights have won numerous tourneys that could have been added. If Dany takes the throne again, Barristan can add some more stuff: His reinstatement; defeating the Titan's Bastard, Mero, with a stick to protect the queen; sneaking into Meereen to launch a sneak attack, which leads to the fall of the city; slayed the pit fighter Khrazz while disposing of the corrupt King Hizdahr, and led the Queen's forces to break the siege on Meereen. (Assuming he surives, he could be adding more notches on his belt.) I like Jaime, but it is impossible to compare the two's accomplishments. Barristan's badassery is out of everybody's league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0bR Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Barristan writes his dismissal by King Joffery the Monster and his reinstatement by Queen Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains,Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms,Queen of Meereen and protector of the Realm "runs out of ink in a week" I assume that both knights have won numerous tourneys that could have been added. If Dany takes the throne again, Barristan can add some more stuff: His reinstatement; defeating the Titan's Bastard, Mero, with a stick to protect the queen; sneaking into Meereen to launch a sneak attack, which leads to the fall of the city; slayed the pit fighter Khrazz while disposing of the corrupt King Hizdahr, and led the Queen's forces to break the siege on Meereen. (Assuming he surives, he could be adding more notches on his belt.) I like Jaime, but it is impossible to compare the two's accomplishments. Barristan's badassery is out of everybody's league. I wonder if the readers of the Whitebook would get just as bored with Essosi stuff as most of us do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 am i the only one who thinks Barristan's last entry was actually "Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age." i feel like winning the tourney is only there to put his 'advanced age' into perspective and is not something he would have written when it happened. Now that I think about it, I agree. Putting that in was Barristan's passive-aggressive way of subtly modifying the following sentence to read "Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of COMPLETE BULLSHIT." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 But still you can say you are sorry and ask for forgiveness. Well, he does explicitly tell Cersei he's ashamed of the stuff he's done to keep their relationship a secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 am i the only one who thinks Barristan's last entry was actually "Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age." i feel like winning the tourney is only there to put his 'advanced age' into perspective and is not something he would have written when it happened. I'm soooo thinking this is what actually happened. He wanted to make sure all the sorry louts in all the future kingsguards know he was truly a badass, and Joffrey was just an ass. He did feel like the KG is in a sort of decline, so maybe it's also a kind of encouragement to everyone who will read the book in the future to show you can be in a tip-top shape and kick arse even when you are past 50. Age is only a number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ours if the Fury Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Jaime realizes what a giant loser he had been. Priceless... i dont think that, i just think he feels uncompleted not on a level, in which many of his brothers are ... looking at Barristan i can understand why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breadfort Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I think the passages serve 3 purposes. 1. Barristan lived up to his "bold" title by risking his life to go back to the office and take care of some paperwork. 2. It shows how far Jaime has to go to become "worthy" of being commander of the kingsguard, both in his mind and in ours. We see him take small steps towards being someone who could be considered a true knight in his previous chapters. I think this is GRRM's way of showing us how long of a journey this could be. 3. There are few wholly fairy tale characters in these books and I think barristan is as close as we get. These passages show the type of immense pressure that would be applied to a truely human character if they had to live in a world with the fairy tale ideal as a predecessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 We all know of how Robert loved to feast and hold tournaments, and yet Jaime only won one of them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 We all know of how Robert loved to feast and hold tournaments, and yet Jaime only won one of them ? He won plenty of others, but the wedding tourney was the only one Barristan bothered to record. In general, it seems Barristan considered tourney victories less important than Gerold Hightower did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franko99 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 He won plenty of others, but the wedding tourney was the only one Barristan bothered to record. In general, it seems Barristan considered tourney victories less important than Gerold Hightower did. Well, maybe, just maybe, that's because in Jaehaerys's II and Aerys's II times tourney's were an exeptional and important matter, while during Robert's reign, there was a tourney every month, therefore diminishing the importance of winning one... just saying :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Wonder how good Kettleback's entry will look... "Ser Kettleback. Fucked the queen. Possibly tag-teamed her with Moonboy. Ermm... that's it really."Don't forget "got made a bitch by the High Septon and his sparrows". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I found this to be the tipping point of the difference between Jaime and what he reresents. Jaime is a complete nobody and now with one hand he will never accomplish what he set out for as a goal. utterly priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thendel Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Don't forget "got made a bitch by the High Septon and his sparrows". The one that Cersei used for her Margaerye scheme is Osney, who was simply Tommen's sworn shield. Osmund is the one in the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 The one that Cersei used for her Margaerye scheme is Osney, who was simply Tommen's sworn shield. Osmund is the one in the Kingsguard.Oh, right. I was wondering if I got the right brother. Damn them Kettleblacks and their overly familiar and unmemorable personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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