Ease off Jamie, he's a good guy.......

[Dany Girl]

Again, it doesn't matter whether hostages are taken or whatever. What matters is that Catelyn killed an innocent man out of vanity and other people who took hostages haven't so far.

Don't try to deflect by bringing up the circumstances. That's an innocent life that Catelyn has taken, while other hostages were never murdered. It totally counts against her.

vanity? Um, no. She killed him out of extreme grief and a need for justice after watching what she thinks is her last remaining son get brutally slaughtered. Her mistake was grabbing a Frey Walder didn't give 2 shits about. He has his own grandson acting as court jester! Then, immediately after killing JB in grief she claws her own face up before being murdered.

I get that some people think JB losing his life was some tragedy, but since it happened while his family was brutally slaughtering her family and most of their army, I really can't feel too bad for him. Yes, he was innocent, but so were many of the people slaughtered at thar wedding. There were paiges and squires cut down as well as full grown soldiers.

[Sansa_Stark]

It is ridiculous to try and dismiss the circumstances in how they change everything about the situation.

Simply, the purpose for why all those individuals took hostages were the same as Catelyn's only in her case the hostage's family didn't care enough to stop their crimes.

Then what they do is wrong too. But does that make what Catelyn did less wrong?

No it doesn't. It was still a horrible thing to do.

[Sansa_Stark]

Whatever.

This isn't a Cat topic so for once I'll do the right thing and stop arguing.

[Lykos]

That´s a funny thread title. Ease off Jaime ... The man has hard on written all over his character. :P

Jaime is very far from redeemed, he has adressed one very old guilt by owning up to his part in the Tysha crime after over ten years he told his brother, that he loved, the truth. Yes that is better than going on letting Tyrion believe in their fathers lies. He also stopped being a copletely impulsive tool and started to make some responsible decisions, but he carried them out in a very questionable way by using the reputation his father had built - Never make an empty threat-.

The obsessive condemnation of his sister-lover is also worrying. I hope it´s just the well known phase in the break up process, when you blame your partner for the failing of the relationship, since he was clearly not getting along with Cersei anymore before Tyrion told him about Lancel, the Kettleblacks and so on.

Jaime clearly wants to become a man worthy of Brienne´s love and I hope he does. I also hope he lives long enough to face Bran and admit his guilt in the defenestration.

ETA: Please stay on topic. I think there are some Stoneheart threads.

[Minsc]

Then what they do is wrong too. But does that make what Catelyn did less wrong?

No it doesn't. It was still a horrible thing to do.

It still makes her actions more understandable along with the factor that we realize that she was a midst a terrible situation that drove her mad thus allowing it to be recognized as not a true representation of her character.

[SwordInDaDarkness]

I think all of you who say that Jaime is 'still terrible' and 'irredeemable' are being very unfair towards him.

Jaime has had guilt over 'the boy in Winterfell' but does not think about Bran in every chapter. He doesn't dwell on his guilt. I don't see this as especially wrong as he seems to become a better person anyway. I would like to see him confront his actions at some point and feel something powerful about all the truly bad stuff he has done.

I also understand why Cersei has been featured in his thoughts almost equally as an object of love as well as hatred. His whole life has been practically about his twin so I get that he's kind of ambivalent about her.

Can you honestly say that Jaime's actions and conversations with Lancel, Edmure (except for the baby throwing), Blackfish, Sybill Westerling, Lord Blackwood etc would have gone the same way if he had been the same Jaime. This is clearly a man who has more control over himself and understands the value of being honourable. The old Jaime lifts his head once in a while as a kind of defense when Jaime feels like the other party is feeling too comfortable around him.

I don't think he's terrible but he's got a long way to go before he becomes 'good'.

[butterbumps!]

Jaime did more than just being the catalyst through carelessness. He lead an invading army when the war started. He pushed Bran which started the whole mess. And he never ever felt the slightest bit of guilt or regret for his role in starting and fighting the war.

Yes, he didn't start the war for gain or malevolence, but that isn't any consolation for the millions who died in it, is it?

Well, he does regret having pushed Bran, and he recognizes the suffering of the realm due to the war. He doesn't take full responsibility for it, and I'm not sure that he should. He didn't cause everything that followed.

I just find it strange that you're so unforgiving of this. I think it's kind of like writing Tyrion off entirely for not ceding to the Starks when he was Hand or something. I don't find his actions wrt catalyzing the war justifiable, but there's something forgivable about his role to that end, imo.

[Minsc]

Jaime has had guilt over 'the boy in Winterfell' but does not think about Bran in every chapter. He doesn't dwell on his guilt.

His guilt was so strong that he thought it would be amusing to make jokes about his actions to the boy's grieving mother.

[The Wolves]

No act washes out the other,

In Jamie's case it should and his bad acts does wash out the good IMO.

Every "bad" thing Jamie does have affected many others

-having bastards with Cersei has caused a civil war. This civil war is probably the worst Westeros has ever seen. Jamie along with Cersei(they both share much of blame for the war starting)and others have murdered thousands, raped and maimed thousands. They have destroyed homes and committed thousands of atrocities and yes every death, rape, and horror done in TWot5K deserves to be put on Cersei's and Jamie's shoulders.

- pushing Bran was the beginning of the suffering of houses Stark and Tully

- he takes Riverrun from its owners and give it to the Tully's murderers and multiple people are put out of their homes and taken prisoner

The only "good" thing Jamie has done was jump into a bear pit to save Brienne but when has that affected thousands of people like all his other acts have?

[Sansa_Stark]

I always thought Jaime was a bit of a sociopath in a lot of regards.

-Impulsive

-Generally fearless

-Lack of guilt

These things are pretty sociopathic traits and Jaime has them in spades.

Of course he did love his brother and sister so that kinda negates it.

[David Selig]

Well, he does regret having pushed Bran, and he recognizes the suffering of the realm due to the war. He doesn't take full responsibility for it, and I'm not sure that he should. He didn't cause everything that followed.

He doesn't take any responsibility for it IIRC. None. Even though he's (as far as he know) in the Top 3 of people who caused the whole mess.

[Sansa_Stark]

Factor 1: Interpersonal/Affective

• Glibness/superficial charm
  
• Grandiose sense of self-worth
  
• Pathological lying
  
• Cunning/manipulative
  
• Lack of remorse or guilt
  
• Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
  
• Callousness; lack of empathy
  
• Failure to accept responsibility for his or her own actions
  

Factor 2: Lifestyle/Antisocial

• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  
• Parasitic lifestyle
  
• Poor behavioral control
  
• Lack of realistic long-term goals
  
• Impulsiveness
  
• Irresponsibility
  
• Juvenile delinquency
  
• Early behavior problems
  
• Revocation of conditional release
  
• Criminal versatility
  

Traits not correlated with either factor

• Promiscuous sexual behavior
  
• Many short-term (marital) relationships
  
• Acquired behavioral sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
  

How many of these things describe Jaime to a T or very well?

Checklist from Robert Hare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

[Whitering]

He's not a horrible guy but he attempted to murder a young boy, so you know...

He's a good guy compared to the other death row inmates you might find yourself incarcerated with.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh come on, Jaime's not a bloody sociopath.

[Sansa_Stark]

Oh come on, Jaime's not a bloody sociopath.

I think he comes close.

I mean, the man has a lot of those traits.

[butterbumps!]

He doesn't take any responsibility for it IIRC. None. Even though he's (as far as he know) in the Top 3 of people who caused the whole mess.

The reason you're saying he caused it is the incest, right? And the ensuing defenestration?

I don't honestly see the incest and bastard production as some inherent wrong. It was a consensual relationship and I don't feel a strong moral condemnation toward it. As a separate issue, I do not see "true born first born males" as a somehow inherently good system of leadership, and it's obviously one of the issues I think we're supposed to think about in the series. I bring that up because I want to separate out that I don't feel moral outrage over the fact that Cersei aborted Robert's seed and chose the father of her kids.

The problem for me is how Cersei and Tywin insist that Cersei be queen despite this "treason." I think that's where the real moral breakdown starts happening. It's everything that they do to cover up this treason, combined with Cersei's ambition to be queen, that makes this a problem and raises the stakes ever higher. I think Jaime's major failing in his having followed Cersei's lead-- unquestioningly performing coverups and fighting for her without considering consequences. There's something perversely admirable in his devotion to her at the beginning, and despite the terrible things he does in service to this cause, I don't find him worthy of hate. It's more pitiable to me.

[Lykos]

Jaime is not a sociopath, though it´s interesting how many points on that list would be socially accepted, or even revered, in Westeros.

With regard to Jaime´s possible penitence for crippling Bran. I found an interesting bit that made me really happy as a Bran fan, here.

For example, Martin’s early short story The Way of Cross and Dragon deals with a Christian world which has developed as bizarre take on the Christ myth, in which Judas Iscariot, a prostitute and tamer of dragons, had crippled Jesus and having repented, in penitence carries him around the world as the ‘legs of Christ.

Edited to clarify.

[The Wolves]

I bring that up because I want to separate out that I don't feel moral outrage over the fact that Cersei aborted Robert's seed and chose the father of her children.

I don't care either about Cersei having a incestuous relationship with her brother nor would I care about them having incestuous bastards together if it didn't affect a country and thousands of lives.

It would be fine with me if Cersei and Jamie sired bastard after bastard together confined in Casterly Rock where their kids could RIGHTFULLY INHERIT. But the problem is that Cersei tried to give what should rightfully be ROBERT'S CHILDREN INHERITANCE to her and Jamie's children.

I also hate the fact that Jamie and Cersei knew their actions could bring about a civil war(which it did)and the deaths of their children and themselves and they didn't care at all.

Both Jamie and Cersei were in positions of power and influence and their actions have affected many lives yet they acted selfishly and TWot5K is what is the result of their selfishness and greed.

Jamie sure does deserved to he blamed for TWot5k along with Cersei and others

[Danelle]

I don't hate Loras per say, but that did anger me. Between the Others and the Tyrells, Bronze Yohn is going to have his hands full while he's kicking ass to avenge his sons :cool4:

:agree:

Comments like these, make me miss the Like button!

[jon stark I]

Okey Cat and Starks are blamed for even the bad weather in North but Jaime(the guy who fucked his sister since childhood, who passed his bastards as kings son, who pushed a child out of the window, who was going to kill Arya for just to have sex with his sister, who thinks of his children as some seeds , who f*cked Cersei right besides his childs coffin, this goes on) gets a free pass for everything and he is labeled as a good guy.That guy is the cause of Wot5K.He is just like any other evil character that loses his power.After they lose their power all these characters start getting goodness in their hearts.

Jaime is very good character very interesting to read.But he is not a good men.