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The Snowfyre Chorus

Dead or Alive? - A List of Ice and Fire

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GRRM Blurring the Line between Life and Death

Remember back when we all read AGOT for the first time, and we were shocked by Ned Stark's execution because - holy shit! - GRRM just killed off somebody important? :eek: And there was no way Ned survived that, after all - because characters had been dying since the prologue, and aside from a handful of wights north of the wall, well... dead was dead. (( :ack: ))

Now flash forward a few years. Here we are still reading these books, and the list of dead characters only continues to grow. But a funny thing has happened since Ned's undisputed execution back in book one. Over the next 4,000 pages or so, it has become increasingly difficult to draw that line between life and death; and the subset of "dead" characters or figures who still live - in one fashion or another - is not small.

So just for kicks, and in no particular order, here is a working list of characters who, at one point or another along the way, have been left for dead - only to reappear among the living. I'm sure there are other names that could be added to the list. Let me know who I've left off, and I'll be happy to add them to the set.
[**PLEASE, please... if you haven't finished reading the books, be aware that there are SPOILERS ahead. I am not using spoiler code here, because I am posting this topic in a location where users are assumed to have read the books.]
(Original list posted several weeks ago on the Heresy 75 thread)

CHARACTERS (circumstances of death / life)
- Patchface (washes up dead 3 days after shipwreck of the Windproud / revived inexplicably, but never the same)
- Rickon Stark (dead per Theon and Ramsay / alive per Wex)
- Bran Stark (dead per Theon and Ramsay / alive per Wex)
- Arya Stark (believed lost and dead / then "found" and married to Ramsay Bolton / ...but the real Arya is alive in Braavos, still learning how to be "dead")
- Beric Dondarrion (actually dead / then actually undead / repeat ad nauseum)
- Catelyn Stark (actually dead / then actually undead)
- Davos Seaworth (counted as lost on the Blackwater / reappears among the living after unlikely rescue)
- Davos Seaworth, again (reported as executed by Wyman Manderly / still among the living)
- Renly Baratheon (killed by Stannis' shadow / ...reappears as a ghost during the Battle of the Blackwater)
- Jon Connington (once "dead" / now "reborn")
- Drowned Men (ironmen ritually drowned / awaken as priests of the Drowned God)
- Various Skinchangers (may die multiple times in animals / "true death" followed by second life as bonded animal?)
- Aeron Greyjoy (lost at sea during Greyjoy Rebellion / washes up to spiritual reawakening)
- Euron Greyjoy (thought dead or lost / suddenly back on the scene)
- Theon Greyjoy (assumed dead / then just psychologically dead / now sorta alive again)
- Ramsay Bolton (supposedly beheaded by Ser Rodrick Cassel / turns out he was Reek all along)
- Brynden Rivers (assumed dead / found hiding in a tree at 125 yrs old)
- Sandor Clegane (dead to sin / but digging graves on the Quiet Isle... or is it the Hound who is dead? ;) )
- Gregor Clegane (dead as far as the Dornish know / ...but who the hell is Robert Strong?)
- Khal Drogo (alive but dying / then "alive" but "what is life," really? / then actually dead)
- Rhaego (was kicking as Dany began labor / yet at birth the child had been "dead for years")
- Joanna Lannister (dead for years / but reappears to Jaime and tells him he's not dreaming)
- Mance Rayder (publicly executed by fire/crossbow at the Wall / actually glamour-switched with Rattleshirt)

- Stannis Baratheon- (dead according to "the Pink Letter", only time will tell if it's true kinda like Jon Snow right? Same chapter)

- Elder Brother of Quiet Isle (died during battle of Trident, lives a second life on Quiet Isle)
- Shireen Baratheon (alive, has greyscale / already dead per Val)
- Jaqen H'ghar (dead, but as a FM the man formally known as Jaqen can change identities)
- Pate, Citadel novice (killed in AFFC prologue / reappears among the living in last chapter...)
- Morroquo (assumed dead, lost at sea / picked up by Iron Fleet 10 days later)

- Aegon Targaryon (supposedly brained as an infant / apparently rescued by Varys)
- Daenerys Targaryon (dead as far as the Meerenese are concerned / actually not dead)
- Jon Snow (at the end of ADWD, well... is he dead or alive, folks? Only time will tell... )
- The Old Powers (formerly "asleep," now "awake," per Mirri Maz Duur)
- Dragons (the last dragon died 100+ years ago, but don't tell Drogon...)
- Direwolves (haven't been seen south of the Wall in 200 years, until AGOT Chapter 1)
- Children of the Forest (long dead, according to Ned Stark and Maester Luwin; Bran Stark and Bloodraven know better)

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Patchface (Apparently dead for three days but spits up water and comes back to life.)

- Apparently missing some of his faculties but with a new talent for prognostication. Losing your wits seems to be a theme with Lord Beric and the longer you're dead, the worse it gets, if you ask Catelyn.

Samwell and Tyrion (Both drowned but rescued and resuscitated)

- What is dead can never die???

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Oh, Patchface - I thought of him the other day, but forgot to add him to the list. Good one! I may do a general entry for the ritual drownings... but near-death experiences seem to fit in a different category. Sam and Tyrion, for instance - each had to be rescued, but neither was actually "left for dead." You do remind me, though, that Aeron Greyjoy was believed lost at sea before he washed up at Lannisport during the Greyjoy rebellion - so he deserves special mention. Thanks, LynnS!


:)


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GRRM Blurring the Line between Life and Death

Remember back when we all read AGOT for the first time, and we were shocked by Ned Stark's execution because - holy shit! - GRRM just killed off somebody important? :eek: And there was no way Ned survived that, after all - because characters had been dying since the prologue, and aside from a handful of wights north of the wall, well... dead was dead. (( :ack: ))

Definitely, dead is dead is Ned. However, if we're counting ghosting experiences like Lyanna, maybe even Ned has a place on this list - after all he visited Bran and Rickon after his death (so they knew about it the morning before the raven appeared).

Another point where the dead-or-alive motif enters might be the death of skinchangers - we think Orell was killed by Jon Snow, then we get the impression that his eagle continues to carry Orell's grudges, and finally we find out that it's actually Orell in the eagle. Likewise Varamyr has a second life in the wolf One Eye and Haggon had one in the wolf Greyskin for a few seconds (until Varamyr drove him out).

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some of these might be "dire circumstances" instead of deaths?



Mance Rayder- (death by fire/crossbow was a glamour trick, Mance is still alive)



Brienne of Tarth- (being hanged, screams a single word

sword

and lives


Pod and Ser Hyle - same situation



Stannis Baratheon- (dead according to "the Pink Letter", only time will tell if it's true kinda like Jon Snow right? Same chapter)



Elder Brother- (died during battle of Trident, washed up naked and alive on Quiet Isle)



Tyrion Lannister(drowned by a stone man, saved by Corrington who contracts grey scale for his trouble)



speaking of greyscale



Shireen Baratheon(dead since she had greyscale according to Woods Witches, not dead according to Maesters)



Jon Corrington(dead since he has grey scale)



Ser Dontos(dead, but rumored to be alive turns out to be the wrong fool)



Jaqen H'ghar(dead, but as a FM the man formally known as Jaqen can change identities)



Pate, like the pig boy( killed by a FM, alive later on, well someone that looks like him is alive later on...)



Morroquo( assumed dead, survives at sea for ten days with the help of R'hollor)




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I am curious about Shae too. I don't remember her being mentioned at all after Osfryd took her body to the dungeons via the secret passage Tyrion used. Later in aFfC we learn of Qyburn's practice of necromancy and he asks Cersei for female subjects. Is he doing something to reanimate Shae? Where did her body go and why does he need women?


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some of these might be "dire circumstances" instead of deaths?

Mance Rayder- (death by fire/crossbow was a glamour trick, Mance is still alive)

Brienne of Tarth- (being hanged, screams a single word

sword

and lives

Pod and Ser Hyle - same situation

Stannis Baratheon- (dead according to "the Pink Letter", only time will tell if it's true kinda like Jon Snow right? Same chapter)

Elder Brother- (died during battle of Trident, washed up naked and alive on Quiet Isle)

Tyrion Lannister(drowned by a stone man, saved by Corrington who contracts grey scale for his trouble)

speaking of greyscale

Shireen Baratheon(dead since she had greyscale according to Woods Witches, not dead according to Maesters)

Jon Corrington(dead since he has grey scale)

Ser Dontos(dead, but rumored to be alive turns out to be the wrong fool)

Jaqen H'ghar(dead, but as a FM the man formally known as Jaqen can change identities)

Pate, like the pig boy( killed by a FM, alive later on, well someone that looks like him is alive later on...)

Morroquo( assumed dead, survives at sea for ten days with the help of R'hollor)

Wow, great set of adds. Mance Rayder had occurred to me at some point sling the way - but I hadn't considered most of these names. I'll definitely have to update. It may also make sense at some point to sort into "types" of dead/alive...

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Not so much an addition to the list but an observation of @maidenandwarrior: To Jojen Reed (who himself is a Schrödinger's Crannogman, both dead and alive), Bran and Rickon are dead, although he has been with them and is still with Bran. No news, they are on the list already. But then...

To the repeated tale of "there are no knights in the Neck", Jojen adds: only dead ones. So whoever they are, they may end up on the list if this reasoning proves right and their identity will be reveiled.the

To get back to our worst nightmare of a dead Ned Stark: The party of silent sisters accompanying his remains to Winterfell never got there, as far as we know. They would probably have been unable to pass Moat Cailin under Ironmen occupation. Since that's been lifted, we haven't had any news.

Maybe we will later have to add Greywind to the list, if Ghost and Summer sniff and feel right, and that means he lives. Crackpot as it is, it might bring a trace of Robb back to the story, with snowflakes melting on his fur. Ho ho ho.

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Maybe we will later have to add Greywind to the list, if Ghost and Summer sniff and feel right, and that means he lives. Crackpot as it is, it might bring a trace of Robb back to the story, with snowflakes melting on his fur. Ho ho ho.

Awefully sorry, but I don't recall any references to GW from either ghost or Summer. Could you remind me? I'd love for him to have survived. :dunce: am I missing something?

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Hey @The Weirwoods Eyes,

Awefully sorry, but I don't recall any references to GW from either Ghost or Summer. Could you remind me? I'd love for him to have survived. :dunce: am I missing something?

You/we might. I get a bit worried and paranoid reading those frequent allusions and I am only in my first re-read of the books, still struggling with ASoS becoause I keep on cross referencing with mostly AGoT and ADwD. I stumbled over @Kienn's signature which reads:

Robb Wind lives!

Summer ASoS: "Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice."

GoHH ASoS: "I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief"

Ghost ADwD: "Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow ... whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained... and one the white wolf could no longer sense."

http://www.easypolls...4b0330d628812fc (Grey Wind alive or dead)

... and that has made me curious. I am past the High Heart quote but have not stumbled upon the Summer/Ghost quotes mentioned yet, so I cannot provide you the chapters and page numbers, but it happens after that Wedding at the Twins. I may be back with it shortly, I hope.

And there seems to be a thought by @Bran Vras who also notes that in one of the very many dreams of Jon Snow that keep calling him into the Crypts of Winterfell, he meets a very vigorous direwolf that looks exactly like Lady in the crypts... which leads to the interpretation that the Stark direwolfs might be somehow immortal. I follow that idea with curiosity, I am not claiming it to be true.

ETA: the ADwD wolf-quote is from the 3d chapter Jon I p51 (first page):

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

We saw Lady die at Eddard Stark's hands, and have to assume Grey Wind dead, too.

Jon cannot sense Ghost when the wall is between them. At the time of this wolf dream, they are on the same side of the wall, so one interpretation might be, there are still 4 wolfs (including Ghost or not) and one (Summer beyond the Wall) he could sense before crossing the wall but no longer.

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I think we can assume that BOTH Ned and Robb will return in some form when the full on battle starts along with ALL of the Kings of Winter - or at least all of those whose iron swords have rusted away or been taken



Brandon, Rickard and two others will rise because they have no swords (Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor took them). Ned and Robb are not yet safely buried so they too will rise.


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I think we can assume that BOTH Ned and Robb will return in some form when the full on battle starts along with ALL of the Kings of Winter - or at least all of those whose iron swords have rusted away or been taken

Brandon, Rickard and two others will rise because they have no swords (Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor took them). Ned and Robb are not yet safely buried so they too will rise.

I think one of them is Lyanna. The other will ben Torhhen the king who knelt or Bran the Builder.

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