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The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!


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I've always found that discussions based around solely lucky breaks are rarely all that fruitful. Part of the issue that I take with it is that many events that occur, both for good and ill, are the result of a third party independently deciding to intervene in a given situation. Ned's execution, for instance, happens not because he refuses to admit treason, but because Littlefinger makes the decision to whisper in Joffrey's ear that perhaps Ned would be better off dead. In the same vein, Arya's only prevented from being discovered at Ned's execution -- or worse -- because the one person in King's Landing who is interested in helping her happens to be at the right place at the right time. There are numerous other examples in the book, but I think you hit the key point in speaking of family dynamics. More broadly, I think what's hammered in during this situations is that all actions have their consequences, even if they don't manifest right away, and that these consequences always come back to help or hurt people in unexpected ways. The Red Wedding is probably the best example of this, but this situation is also a great one as well.

Jon's rescue occurs because he has always treated Bran kindly, but that doesn't preclude his actions -- i.e. not killing the old man, betraying the Wildlings, and fleeing to Castle Black -- from having their own set of consequences as well. Certainly, one of the consequences here is that Jon eventually gains power, but his mental state during is anything but happy. Not that he was ever all that happy, but the overall tone of his chapters are significantly different from what they are in AGOT and ACOK. Ygritte's death is probably the biggest consequence for him, personally, and that's something that haunts him. It's also an interesting choice, I think, on Martin's part and one that's true to life.

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Jon VI (SoS)

Summary

The chapter opens shortly after the last one ended. Jon is riding for the Wall trying to get to Castle Black ahead of the Wildlings. He stops at Mole's Town to change horses, warn them of the Wildlings and tells them to flee to Castle Black. He arrives at the Wall at dawn and goes to the armory, the only sign of life he sees, and finds Donal Noye. Jon tells Noye of the Wildlings south of the Wall and Noye gives him a brief update on events at the Wall before taking the injured Jon to Aemon. The maester treats Jon's wounds and they exchange more detailed accounts of Jon's travels and the events at Castle Black before Jon passes out from the pain of having his leg treated. He awakens to find Pyp and Grenn at his bedside. They try to alleviate his concerns by informing him of the steps taken to prepare for the attack and call for Aemon. When Jon asks if a summons has been sent to Winterfell he receives the news of the sack and Theon supposedly having killed Bran and Rickon. He falls asleep to a nightmare of being in the hot pools of Winterfell with Ygritte as the flesh melts off her skin.

Observations

Jon arrives at the Wall as dawn breaks which seems quite symbolic given the purpose of the Nights Watch and the War for the Dawn.

As the stars began to fade in the eastern sky, the Wall appeared before him, rising above the trees and the morning mists. Moonlight glimmered pale against the ice. He urged the gelding on, following the muddy slick road until he saw the stone towers and timbered halls of Castle Black huddled like broken toys beneath the great cliff of ice. By then the Wall glowed pink and purple with the first light of dawn.

Reminders of the decayed state of the Watch Is Greyguard a reference to or bit of foreshadowing of Jon learning Winterfell/House Stark is in ruins?

No sentries challenged him as he rode past the outbuildings. ... Castle Black seemed as much a ruin as Greyguard. Brown brittle weeds grew between cracks in the stones of the courtyards. ... “Forty odd,” said Donal Noye. “The crippled and infirm, and some green boys still in training.” ... The Watch is not what it was. Too few honest men to keep the rogues in line.

To me the professorial side of Aemon seems to be accomplished with a minimum of effort on Martin's part-- its all in the timbre of his dialogue. Just something that struck me as very well done.

"Packed with wet wool" struck me as on odd metaphor. Wool is still a functional insulator when wet-- one of its primary desirable attributes.. I recall that it can be a bit itchy against bare skin and smells a little funny when wet. My brain inserted a memory of a feeling for this but I'm not sure it was the one Martin was going for. Is there a wool/Ygritte connection through the sheepskin cloak?

His scouts claim they saw you with their own eyes, riding along beside the wildling column and wearing a sheepskin cloak.” Noye eyed him. “I see the last part’s true.”

His head felt as if it were packed with wet wool.

When his eyelids fluttered open, he was wrapped in thick wool and floating.

Christian/Jesus symbolism in the bread and wine?

They brought him that; a skin of wine as well, and half a loaf of brown bread.

If so are the dozen men that make it back from the ranging twelve apostles? Giant and Edd get commands, Dywen leads the ranging that has Thorne, Lew escorts Sam and Aemon and then guards Jon when he meets Tormund to let the Wildlings through and the others mentioned all shoot "Mance" when Mel burns him.

Analysis

Walls of Water

This chapter is sandwiched in between Cat and Arya. In both those chapters they face walls of water in the form of rivers that must be crossed. The ferry, the bridge at the Twins, and the gate at Castle Black are the crossings for the walls of water and each is a mixture of friends, foes, and brothers. Jon is filled with love for his "enemy" Ygritte while Arya is filled with hatred for her "ally" Sandor. Jon was beginning to feel fraternity with the Wildlings and returns to his brothers and learns most of his adopted and real brothers are dead. Arya is being taken to her brother to be ransomed by Sandor who has his own brother issues come up. Cat's wall of water crossing is held by hidden enemies in the guise of allies and she is unsure if she's a friend or enemy among her own son's men. (I think there may be a bit of a Ygritte/Cat parallel-- Jon even makes one in his head.) Even she has a brother connection with Edmure's wedding.

With Cat and Arya there is one and only one crossing-- the Twins and the ferry respectively. Technically the same is true for Jon (and soon Sam) in that Castle Black is supposed to be the only crossing--and yet Jon goes over the Wall and Sam goes under it. Cat and Arya are heading to their "allies" the Boltons and the Freys who will turn out to be more dangerous and treacherous than the enemy Wildlings or even Sam's "true enemy" undead companion. The bridge of the Twins will create divides while the gate at the Wall will create bridges. Lots of stuff to contrast from different angles in there.

Aemon and Jon

This chapter echoes with the elements of their earlier conversation about ravens and doves back in GoT. Touching on a little of the recent discussion of Jon and the old man, Jon has tried to always choose what's right no matter what just like his assessment of Ned. "Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love?" This is the very choice Jon was faced with.

My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation.
yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children…

Aemon plays the role of his ravens here for Jon with the news of Bran, Rickon, and Winterfell. In that conversation Aemon confesses to having his vows tested three times. Is this Jon's second with the Pink Letter being his third? Jon having played out Aemon's speech on choices also serves to cast its shadow on The Choosing the Watch will have to go through for a new LC.

The Dream

The chapter ends with Jon's "dream" from last chapter turned nightmare.

If I could show her Winterfell… give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father’s face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn’t, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night’s Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.

On one level this seems tied to Cat.

You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

The word "sloughing" jumped out at me too. It isn't exactly archaic but hardly a vocabulary you'd expect to hear at the pub unless you were fortunate enough to be drinking with Lummel. It was used 6 times prior in the series. Dany's dragon dream, the burning wight Jon killed, stillborn Rhaego, Theon's dream, the undead bear that tried to kill Mormont, and Sandor's burnt arm when Arya tries to kill him.

Dany's dream stood out in similarity to Ygritte's description here

She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Is Jon's "he was the blood of Winterfell" like Dany's "blood of the dragon"? The description also closely resembles Jon's vision of the wight he burned.

Truly, the gods had heard Jon’s prayer that night; the fire had caught in the dead man’s clothing and consumed him as if his flesh were candle wax and his bones old dry wood. Jon had only to close his eyes to see the thing staggering across the solar, crashing against the furniture and flailing at the flames. It was the face that haunted him most; surrounded by a nimbus of fire, hair blazing like straw, the dead flesh melting away and sloughing off its skull to reveal the gleam of bone beneath.

There's his guilt for failing to live up to Ned despite fully believing he's living the agony of the same choice Ned himself made. There's Ygritte's death resembling the dying wight which embodies the threat of the Others and the consequences of the choice to leave Ygritte, and there's the odd resemblance to Dany's dream that could recall his Targaryen connection and adds a twist to "you know nothing, Jon Snow" when it comes to his beliefs about fathering bastards.

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Just quickly before I rereread the chapter...



I noticed a Catelyn contrast also in that Jon does not keep his word - here not to scream as Aemon treats his leg, but in the last Catelyn POV chapter Catelyn does keep her word by killing Jinglebell (the spirit of Christmas? Or just another unlucky Aegon?). As you point out The Ned's marriage to Catelyn is seen by Jon as analogous to his marriage to the Night's Watch. Now isn't that a bit odd? It doesn't, considering Jon's POV, suggest a positive, upbeat attitude to oath keeping. The first excludes Jon or put him into a marginalised position, so what by analogy is squeezed out into the Jon role in teh Stark family dynamic by his marriage to the Watch? Maybe it's just me but I feel the implication is that marriage, oath making is about duty - but not passion, not the racing of the human heart. Passion, love, squidgy tender feelings generally perhaps are reserved for Jon's mother, for those other lives that Jon didn't get to live, with Ygritte, as Bannerman to Robb in a Towerhouse on the Gift, as Lord of Winterfell?



Widening that to take in the natural screaming and the rather pointless murder of the spirit of christmas future, I get a sense here of oath keeping or keeping your word as something mechanistic, dry. It is not free, not delightful.




Sloughing is an interesting word. Snakes slough their skin, which sugggests rebirth. Ygritte sloughs her skin before the heart tree that has The Ned's face (hmm remember the weirwood with Bran's face that Jon dreamt of in the frostfangs...). Jon sees her bones and the warm pool turns red from her blood. Bone white and blood red - weirwood colours. Death is linked to the weirwoods, perhaps also rebirth into the godhead? Perhaps there is something here about the essential nature of a person as being the same as the weirwoods - the person as an integral part of nature not seperate from it? At the same time it is horrorific, the scene of Jon's fantasy turned to a scene of death, overseen by his father. He was happy to imagine his father's gods watching him and ygritte consummate their love in physical union, but uneasy at his father seeing this. The red pool reminds me of Lyanna in her bed of blood too. We're down to the raw bones of the story. "Nature red in tooth and claw".


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You mean that maybe The Mance was thinking of blending the Wildlings and the Night's Watch to guard the Wall? It would be a nice irony if Jon ended up forfilling The Mance's programme unwittingly, but the problem with The Mance is that we get virtually no insight into what he is thinking or planning so we are left to speculate.

I think that Mance wants to save the Wildings from the Others, and might be willing to suffer a defeat against the NW (to gain credibility for trying) in order to persuade the Wildings to negotiate for passage. He might have anticipated that Jon would be a valuable go-between. Or at least that half-formed idea is rolling around in my mind. I'm not sure exactly how it might have been planned, and Stannis' intervention was a major surprise. We're missing too much info from Mance to be sure of anything, so I'm keeping an open mind.

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Sloughing is an interesting word. Snakes slough their skin, which sugggests rebirth. Ygritte sloughs her skin before the heart tree that has The Ned's face (hmm remember the weirwood with Bran's face that Jon dreamt of in the frostfangs...). Jon sees her bones and the warm pool turns red from her blood. Bone white and blood red - weirwood colours. Death is linked to the weirwoods, perhaps also rebirth into the godhead? Perhaps there is something here about the essential nature of a person as being the same as the weirwoods - the person as an integral part of nature not seperate from it? At the same time it is horrorific, the scene of Jon's fantasy turned to a scene of death, overseen by his father. He was happy to imagine his father's gods watching him and ygritte consummate their love in physical union, but uneasy at his father seeing this. The red pool reminds me of Lyanna in her bed of blood too. We're down to the raw bones of the story. "Nature red in tooth and claw".

Everything happened so fast for Jon in the previous chapter that this dream is his first chance to deal with the consequences of his actions. Is it possible this could be seen as Jon "sacrificing" his relationship with Ygritte to the weirwood/father? Not Ygritte herself, of course, but his relationship with her. By escaping from the Wildings, he's voluntarily given up something that was very valuable to him personally (which is a pretty good definition of sacrifice). The image of blood connected with the weirwood will be repeated in aDwD when both Bran and Davos find out about blood sacrifices to the weirwoods/Old Gods. In aGoT, Cat found Ned oiling Ice by the Heart Tree after he executed Gared. Did Ned clean the bloody sword in the pool as a blood offering to the Old Gods?

Bloody water also recalls the fall of Rhaegar at the Trident-

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed,

Only death can pay for life. (Blood Magic 101) What is Jon buying with this death?

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Great thoughts everyone! Am a little late to the party, but I wanted to add my 2 cents on:



Just some thoughts on Jon not ‘’getting his hands dirty’’


Personally I see the metaphor being about making a choice and being prepared to accept the consequences, be it that you may end up with your hands clean or with them covered in blood, and not a mere acceptance that is necessary to soiled one’s hands. Is the choice one choose to make that will determine if you end up with bloodied hands or not, but you have to be prepared either way.


And like many of the metaphors and concepts in ASOIAF, it is a very dualistic concept. Moral detachment for the sake of utilitarian purposes may yet lead to “bloody hands’’ and not in a positive way, which I feel is at the root of the matter of Jon’s dilemma with the Old Man. The result, IMHO, is to be weighted based on what Jon’s decision shows about his character not as an attempt to label the decision and his consequences as a mere plot gift.


I think this instance with the old man is something of a middle grount between 2 very symbolic passages in Jon’s arch: his talk with Aemon in AGOT and his reaction to the pink letter in ADWD. Back in AGOT in Jon tells Aemons that in the choice between love and honor his Father would what was right:



Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love… “He would do whatever was right,” he said... ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.”



I think the passage above shows that Jon has some abstract notion that the honorable and the “morally right” path are not one and the same, even if it is in some abstract manner. His encounter with the old man confronts him with the fact that, though he believes in both honor and moral rightness, the two of them might actually be different paths so by the time the pink letter arrived honor and moral rightness have become separated irrevocably in his mind. While in this instance his decision to abstain to bloody his hands align with what he perceives as “moral rightness”, his decision in ADWD to embraced the “bloody hand” metaphor is aligned with his perception of what is “morally right”


As an aside, I think Jon’s attitude towards Melissandre making use of Mance is more in line with the idea of his refusing to dirty his hands by assuming a passive attitude. But we’ll get there when we get there.



@Ragnorak, great summary!






Just quickly before I rereread the chapter...



I noticed a Catelyn contrast also in that Jon does not keep his word - here not to scream as Aemon treats his leg, but in the last Catelyn POV chapter Catelyn does keep her word by killing Jinglebell (the spirit of Christmas? Or just another unlucky Aegon?).






Interesting. I have always found it in line with Jaime's promise not to scream as the bloody mummers cut off his hand:



He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard; no sellsword will make him scream….and Jaime screamed


Even the poultice remedy applied to both is pretty much the same (though that is perhaps because is standard treatment :laugh: ) Contrastingly, when his arm was being tended by a “master” Jaime promised to scream very loudly.



Like Jon, Jaime is involved in a slow tortuous journey to return “home” through ASOS. But the way I see it as they journey the concept of home transforms and is no longer CB or the Red Keep but a reencounter with the root of their oaths and Institutions.



But unlike Jon, Jaime began full of confidence in pride in his identity as a Lannister. Jon, on the other hand, started it full of shame and diffidence. Whereas Jons’s experience helped him to connect more and more with the side of him that is a “son of Eddard Stark” (Ygritte/the old man by the road) Jaime starts to disconnect with the his Lannister alter ego or at least to question it. Jon’s connection to the Stark ways is what gives him the strength and tools to reevaluate his oaths later on; whereas Jaime progressive detachment with some of his Lannister ties and values is what gives him the strength to realize that there is still many blank pages left in his story.



The Jon that returned to CB and the Jaime that returned to the RK are shaped by their experiences and through loss, scars and self-discovery arrived more committed than they were to the NW and the KG respectively. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle?




Oddly enough in the previous Jaime chapter before this one he dreamed himself and Brienne "home" at the Rock, whereas Jon dreams himself at "home" in WF. I have yet to reread it to see if there are interesting parallels between both dreams.

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...Reminders of the decayed state of the Watch Is Greyguard a reference to or bit of foreshadowing of Jon learning Winterfell/House Stark is in ruins?...

Christian/Jesus symbolism in the bread and wine? If so are the dozen men that make it back from the ranging twelve apostles? Giant and Edd get commands, Dywen leads the ranging that has Thorne, Lew escorts Sam and Aemon and then guards Jon when he meets Tormund to let the Wildlings through and the others mentioned all shoot "Mance" when Mel burns him...

Walls of Water

This chapter is sandwiched in between Cat and Arya. In both those chapters they face walls of water in the form of rivers that must be crossed. The ferry, the bridge at the Twins, and the gate at Castle Black are the crossings for the walls of water and each is a mixture of friends, foes, and brothers...Lots of stuff to contrast from different angles in there.

...Is Jon's "he was the blood of Winterfell" like Dany's "blood of the dragon"?...

The Greyguard-Castle Black comparison is striking because I remember ADWD opening with this fairly bleak ruinous description of Castle Black, I had forgotten that GRRM is building up that impression all the way through. The weedy courtyard and the absence of chimney smoke suggests somewhere uninhabited.

Your catch of the twelve and what becomes of them is fascinating, of course there is another twelve plus one in Old Nan's Tale of the Last Hero who sets out with twelve companions. I feel the comparisons are a bit off because Sam also survives and will turn up just as Pyp suggests (though without Mance Rayder's head) on the other hand Sam is sent off down south :dunno:

Love the Walls of water, particularly Arya and Catelyn struggling past them to reach people they think are allies only to be betrayed while Jon will now fight against people that he will later be allied with...Actually there is a whole lot of water embodied in that wall. Hope it doesn't melt or everybody will be in cold water.

Jon is of the blood of Winterfell. In a few chapters he will dream that he is not a Stark. I don't think we have really discussed identity, but maybe it is key in understanding Jon's development, particularly if we see him being The Stark in the North during ADWD, there is search to define what he is, or find a way of being that he is comfortable with.

The blood of Winterfell...well there is also the Wolf Blood that Brandon and Lyanna shared. Does Jon have this? On one of the early heresy threads we wondered if there was a mystery in the Stark Blood, a mysterious not human ancestor maybe, or a magical connection to Winter, something that might be hidden in the crypts. There is a lot one can speculate about.

:cheers:

I think that Mance wants to save the Wildings from the Others, and might be willing to suffer a defeat against the NW (to gain credibility for trying) in order to persuade the Wildings to negotiate for passage. He might have anticipated that Jon would be a valuable go-between. Or at least that half-formed idea is rolling around in my mind. I'm not sure exactly how it might have been planned, and Stannis' intervention was a major surprise. We're missing too much info from Mance to be sure of anything, so I'm keeping an open mind.

It would make sense, particularly if the horn that Jon sees in The Mance's tent was not the horn of winter but just a prop to talk his way through.

Everything happened so fast for Jon in the previous chapter that this dream is his first chance to deal with the consequences of his actions. Is it possible this could be seen as Jon "sacrificing" his relationship with Ygritte to the weirwood/father? ...

Only death can pay for life. (Blood Magic 101) What is Jon buying with this death?

What did Jon buy? Good question. But also yes, there is a cost to Jon's escape, it is not free: "How could he explain Ygritte to them? She's warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat."

...Jon has some abstract notion that the honorable and the “morally right” path are not one and the same, even if it is in some abstract manner. His encounter with the old man confronts him with the fact that, though he believes in both honor and moral rightness, the two of them might actually be different paths so by the time the pink letter arrived honor and moral rightness have become separated irrevocably in his mind. While in this instance his decision to abstain to bloody his hands align with what he perceives as “moral rightness”, his decision in ADWD to embraced the “bloody hand” metaphor is aligned with his perception of what is “morally right”...

...Like Jon, Jaime is involved in a slow tortuous journey to return “home” through ASOS. But the way I see it as they journey the concept of home transforms and is no longer CB or the Red Keep but a reencounter with the root of their oaths and Institutions.

But unlike Jon, Jaime began full of confidence in pride in his identity as a Lannister. Jon, on the other hand, started it full of shame and diffidence. Whereas Jons’s experience helped him to connect more and more with the side of him that is a “son of Eddard Stark” (Ygritte/the old man by the road) Jaime starts to disconnect with the his Lannister alter ego or at least to question it. Jon’s connection to the Stark ways is what gives him the strength and tools to reevaluate his oaths later on; whereas Jaime progressive detachment with some of his Lannister ties and values is what gives him the strength to realize that there is still many blank pages left in his story.

The Jon that returned to CB and the Jaime that returned to the RK are shaped by their experiences and through loss, scars and self-discovery arrived more committed than they were to the NW and the KG respectively. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle?

Oddly enough in the previous Jaime chapter before this one he dreamed himself and Brienne "home" at the Rock, whereas Jon dreams himself at "home" in WF. I have yet to reread it to see if there are interesting parallels between both dreams.

I think your separation of morality from honour is an interesting one. So what is honourable may be immoral, or the moral action may be dishonourable? I feel there are shades of The Ned's promise to Lyanna there, or The Ned telling Arya that her lie about Nymeria was 'not without honour' (iirc)

I also like Jon and Jaime's journeys back as re-encounters with their oaths and institutions. Perhaps this is the significance of the Old Man, it forces Jon to remember the execution that begins the series, it forces Jon to admit to his values?

ETA the double loss that Jon has to face in this chapter - the loss of Lord Mormont and most of the people he went north with and the loss of Winterfell and the brothers he grew up with :(

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What did Jon buy? Good question. But also yes, there is a cost to Jon's escape, it is not free: "How could he explain Ygritte to them? She's warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat."

There is this discussion about king's blood and what it means and I had the idle musing that if Ygritte was pregnant Jon may have bought his resurrection with the life of his unborn child.

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You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

Every time Jon wonders what his father would do, or how he felt, in regards to the dipole love/honor, two different answers can be given. There is Ned, and there is Jon's biological father. Supposing that Ned had a love affair Ashara, he put love aside to honour his duty. The other father abandoned his duty to wife, children and realm for love. Too many ifs, but if Ned was indeed Ashara's love, then the two voices could belong to his two fathers, regretting the paths they took. But which voice belongs to whom? Was their final life account positive or negative? A case could be made for either choice, for both men. Jon will have to navigate his path between love and duty/honour alone. Fathers could only further confuse him...

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I think your separation of morality from honour is an interesting one. So what is honourable may be immoral, or the moral action may be dishonourable? I feel there are shades of The Ned's promise to Lyanna there, or The Ned telling Arya that her lie about Nymeria was 'not without honour' (iirc)

My point was meant in regards to the in-world view of honor within the ASOIAF, universe. This phrase to me suggests that, while there is some honor in the choice, is not necessarily perceived as the honorable choice. Ned clearly is still haunted by his lie. The problem as I see it is that the Westerosi concept of honor seems inexorable tied with concepts such as oaths, fealthy, chivalry etc. Which can muddy up the waters when a person subjected to them is put between a sword and a hard place.

I think Jon's journey is one meant to purposely test him on this score. For me his story is heading to a place where a break with his vows/oath and therefore his "honor" is almost irrevocable as he discovers that his vows are more an encumbrance that means to do what he perceives as morally correct. In the end, I think he won´t get to do the right thing and still live up to the standards associated with "an honorable man".

ETA-

@Ibbison from Ibben, very interesting point about the blood sacrifice.

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Aemon plays the role of his ravens here for Jon with the news of Bran, Rickon, and Winterfell. In that conversation Aemon confesses to having his vows tested three times. Is this Jon's second with the Pink Letter being his third?

I think there is a match in the three tests of Awmon and Jon, but their respective second and third tests find them in reverse situations. Jon in this second test is as much helpless as Aemon was in his final: "By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first." He's lying down in bed, wounded, unable to move or even think clearly. On the contrary, in his third (the Pink Letter) he is in a position that his choice can actually make an impact, as might be the case for Aemon in his second ("in the fullness of my manhood"). However, for Jon this is a double test and a double loss. His brothers and Ygritte. The loss of Ygritte is a result of a choice.

Two "vows" here, "I will not scream" and "I will not father a bastard". The first was broken, the second is answered by the you know nothing aphorism. Could be a forshadowing of sorts that Jon will finally break for good his vows to the NightWatch.

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I think there is a match in the three tests of Awmon and Jon, but their respective second and third tests find them in reverse situations. Jon in this second test is as much helpless as Aemon was in his final: "By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first." He's lying down in bed, wounded, unable to move or even think clearly. On the contrary, in his third (the Pink Letter) he is in a position that his choice can actually make an impact, as might be the case for Aemon in his second ("in the fullness of my manhood"). However, for Jon this is a double test and a double loss. His brothers and Ygritte. The loss of Ygritte is a result of a choice.

Two "vows" here, "I will not scream" and "I will not father a bastard". The first was broken, the second is answered by the you know nothing aphorism. Could be a forshadowing of sorts that Jon will finally break for good his vows to the NightWatch.

Very observant! When I ponder the actual family relationship between Aemon and Jon given their growing bond and think of the family they both think they've lost entirely without realizing who they are to each other it is incredibly sad yet also very moving. Aemon's grief at not being able to go to Dany not realizing how much he already helped Jon hits me hardest-- but that's still to come.

Jon was perfectly happy to be with Ygritte in those very hot pools while imagining Winterfell was his to show her. It is the "fathering a bastard" that makes it so objectionable which you correctly point out is a product of keeping his Watch vows. Much later there's also Val's comment

But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch. “Toregg is welcome to her,” he announced. “I took a vow.”

“She won’t mind. Will you, girl?”

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. “Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he’s been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.”

She is very flirtatious with Jon and her calling him "Lord Crow" here I take to mean much the same thing as your read on "you know nothing." Lord Snow is welcome but Lord Crow is not. Another hint at a Ygritte like future after a complete break with the Watch.

I had completely forgotten about Jaime's vows to scream and not to scream. Very nice.

The Greyguard-Castle Black comparison is striking because I remember ADWD opening with this fairly bleak ruinous description of Castle Black, I had forgotten that GRRM is building up that impression all the way through. The weedy courtyard and the absence of chimney smoke suggests somewhere uninhabited.

Your catch of the twelve and what becomes of them is fascinating, of course there is another twelve plus one in Old Nan's Tale of the Last Hero who sets out with twelve companions. I feel the comparisons are a bit off because Sam also survives and will turn up just as Pyp suggests (though without Mance Rayder's head) on the other hand Sam is sent off down south :dunno:

Love the Walls of water, particularly Arya and Catelyn struggling past them to reach people they think are allies only to be betrayed while Jon will now fight against people that he will later be allied with...Actually there is a whole lot of water embodied in that wall. Hope it doesn't melt or everybody will be in cold water.

Jon is of the blood of Winterfell. In a few chapters he will dream that he is not a Stark. I don't think we have really discussed identity, but maybe it is key in understanding Jon's development, particularly if we see him being The Stark in the North during ADWD, there is search to define what he is, or find a way of being that he is comfortable with.

The blood of Winterfell...well there is also the Wolf Blood that Brandon and Lyanna shared. Does Jon have this? On one of the early heresy threads we wondered if there was a mystery in the Stark Blood, a mysterious not human ancestor maybe, or a magical connection to Winter, something that might be hidden in the crypts. There is a lot one can speculate about.

:cheers:

Slough also has a definition of "a state of deep despair or moral degradation." That can tie in with Jon's mood and the state of Castle Black and the Watch.

I mused a little on a Judas figure, maybe a thirteenth apostle or Sam as a John the Baptist figure given his role as the herald of sorts for the next LC. The twelve from Old Nan's tale is a great catch.

I think there's more to mine in the Walls of Water. The deadliest crossing is the bridge at the Freys which ties into the best road is not the easiest theme. Jon and Sam both take the long hard crossings. There are also bestial aspects to the rivers in Cat and Arya and a feel of the rage of nature. Cat and Arya are also seeking to get to the other side which aligns them more with the Wildlings. All are journeying toward family reunions of sorts that end in loss.

I love a good bit of crackpot magic speculation. There is plenty of weirwood sacrificial material in the Ygritte dream even if it is a bit vague. I find it hard to speculate and not wander way off topic so I usually refrain or limit myself. I like the magical speculation everyone's done.

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Isn't the Wall also a beast? It is a thing that defends itself repeatedly in this part of the book. I suppose we could add to that the Wall weeping. GRRM chosing words that suggest that it is a living thing.



The Slough of Despond in Pilgrim's Progress (and to develop Winterfellian's point about Jon's journey as one that tests him and tries his values, that kind of journey could be seen as a pilgrimage or a spiritual journey) is a deep bog that the hero gets stuck in.


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Obligatory Fisher King reference spot:



In the process of breaking up with his girlfriend (with whom he's had his first sexual experiences), Jon receives the dreaded wound to the thigh. In ensuing chapters, Jon will have dealings with three desirable women. Mel offers to make shadowbabies with Jon. Val engages in some moderate flirting with him. Alys Karstark limits herself to light flirting. Jon has no real trouble resisting them all. (Mel is downright creepy, and Alys is a married woman. Val seems to be a bit more serious, but Jon isn't losing sleep over not being able/willing to have her.)



Jon's wound did not, of course, affect his sexual functionality, and his refusals are based on his commitment to his vows and his unwillingness to father bastards. The symbolism, though, is still present. Jon has always carried a "wound" due to his bastardy. Joining the Night's Watch is a form of self-emasculation, a self-inflicted wound. After straying from his vows, he gets a real wound that (symbolically) reinforces the others. He accepts the loss of that part of his life, but acceptance doesn't make him whole.



I don't seem to be able to reach any profound conclusion here.


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We talked a bit about the blood of this and that flowing through the veins earlier so I thought I'd look up the references for "blood of Winterfell." There are only four in the whole series (one in each book minus GoT)and we've seen two so far-- this dream and back in Clash when the Halfhand tells Jon to deal with Ygritte:

Qhorin Halfhand said. “You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night’s Watch.” He looked at the others. “Come, brothers. Leave him to it. It will go easier for him if we do not watch.”

In Feast the phrase appears in Sansa's unspoken thoughts:

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell.

Lastly in Dance Stannis uses it discussing who will get Winterfell since Jon declined his offer:

“After your brother took off Lord Rickard’s head. Arnolf was a thousand leagues away. He has Stark blood in him. The blood of Winterfell.”
“No more than half the other Houses of the north.”

Stannis is clearly unsatisfied with his options for who to give Winterfell to and seems to be provoking Jon in the hopes that he'll change his mind. He even re-offered Winterfell to Jon at the beginning and again at the end of their exchange. Of note is that the disposition of Winterfell is being presented as properly based on the "blood of Winterfell" and Jon declares that Winterfell belongs to his sister Sansa who thinks of herself as the blood of Winterfell earlier in what was meant to be the same book:

Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?”
Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.”
“I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim.”

The first two references involve beheading/sacrifice elements and both reference "watching" (and both have Ygritte.) Later when Stannis makes his offer Jon will recall how Ned said that the heart tree was Winterfell which if true would seem to make the weirwood blood red sap the true blood of Winterfell.

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Obligatory Fisher King reference spot...I don't seem to be able to reach any profound conclusion here.

I don't know that seems pretty profound to me. I think it chimes very much with Ragnorak's favoured Jungian approach to the Fisher King that he rolled out for Sandor. Jon is a marginal figure, uneasy in his vows and identities. I could see somebody developing a case for Jon having a wounded sense of masculinity. :dunno:

ETA Lets add some references here to Lady Gwynhyfvar's Fisher King post (referencing Bran as Fisher King) in her Arthurian thread and Ragnorak's post looking at Sandor as Fisher King type. Perhaps considering how life is physically abrasive on martial men the Fisher King is all too easy a parallel to draw but on the other hand I see Jon here at a crest of a wave in his arc. We floated the idea in Learning to Lead that he might have spent ADWD in depression and perhaps we can trace that back to this point - the physical and emotional wound from the split with Ygritte - coming face to face with the consequences of his night's watch vow and realising what he has lost?

We talked a bit about the blood of this and that flowing through the veins earlier so I thought I'd look up the references for "blood of Winterfell." There are only four in the whole series (one in each book minus GoT)and we've seen two so far-- this dream and back in Clash when the Halfhand tells Jon to deal with Ygritte...

So...what do you think Guv'nor? Genetics or tradition? Stealing oneself or another to accomplish some task or a reminder of an ethos or shared ethic?

I'm actually curious that there are just the four references broken down as three involving Jon and one involving Sansa (now there's something that Tze could add to her list of Jon-Sansa correspondences),

My sense of references to Lannisterism in the Tyrion reread was that they were much more frequent - but then again I don't think there was one strictly equivalent phrase, was 'Lannister of the Rock' used more than once?

On the otherhand iirc Daenerys doesn't use 'Blood of the Dragon' all that often either.

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So...what do you think Guv'nor? Genetics or tradition? Stealing oneself or another to accomplish some task or a reminder of an ethos or shared ethic?

I'm actually curious that there are just the four references broken down as three involving Jon and one involving Sansa (now there's something that Tze could add to her list of Jon-Sansa correspondences),

My sense of references to Lannisterism in the Tyrion reread was that they were much more frequent - but then again I don't think there was one strictly equivalent phrase, was 'Lannister of the Rock' used more than once?

On the otherhand iirc Daenerys doesn't use 'Blood of the Dragon' all that often either.

What do I think? I think it's bloody symbolic. :laugh:

Later Jon will recall Ned's words on the heart tree of Winterfell.

When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said… but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

There's also the red sap of the weirwoods that we're often told resembles blood-- frequently in a somewhat disquieting context. Take Asha for example

From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient, its bole and branches white as the surrounding snows. Eight days ago Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she’d told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood.

So the "Blood of Winterfell" would be the sap of its heart tree.

There's plausible speculation that the lower levels of the crypts in Winterfell may be something like the CotF cave Bran finds. You pointed out Jon seeing Bran's face in a weirwood earlier and Bran was in the crypts of Winterfell when that happened. Jon has his recurring crypt dream. You also pointed out that dream Ygritte turns in a white skeleton in a bloody pool matching the weirwood colors. Her flesh dissolves in the hot water into a bubbling pool giving the impression of being boiled away. This is the process of being prepared for the crypts. We see Ned's bones in Cat's POV and get the two Silent Sister processes from Barristan:

We’ll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver’s Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away.

So the overall picture is the dead being prepared for the crypts tied to the weirwood.

That weirwood is the heart of Winterfell. It is the history and legacy of the Starks. It holds their collective memory and spirits as Bran witnesses in his greenseer training. The first "blood of Winterfell" reference is the Halfhand telling Jon to take care of Ygritte. Jon thinks he' been ordered to execute her but the Halfhand is actually asking for him to engage in First Men justice-- to look into her eyes and choose as he explains later in his knowing your men speech. This second reference in the dream, at least to me, has a very human sacrifice feel to it. With Bran's vision of the bronze dagger slitting the throat and the tree drinking the blood one has to wonder if the "life" inside weirwoods is bought with death. So the "blood of Winterfell" as the blood of the heart tree conjures up notions of the Stark legacy, the nature of their warging origins and a host of other mysterious historical events that may well be in the process of repeating history. It is a powerful allusion.

The last "blood of Winterfell" reference is said by Stannis to Jon but I think it more refers to Sansa than Jon. Stannis is speaking of giving Winterfell to someone who possess its blood and Jon is saying Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

The curious thing is that Jon and Sansa are the two that depart Winterfell in GoT expecting to leave for good and make a new life and home elsewhere-- Jon to his new family of brothers in the Watch and Sansa to her new family with Joffrey. Jon has a good bit of weirwood related symbolism in his story but Ghost is the strongest and most obvious. He will turn down Lord of Winterfell because of Ghost which is essentially turning down Winterfell out of a sense of belonging to Winterfell. Sansa begins her journey back to the old gods in Kings Landing where visits to the godswood mean escaping and going home. In the Eyrie she builds Snow Winterfell. At first she thinks "a godswood without gods, as empty as me," but she seems to become the heart tree of her own symbolic Winterfell as she rebuilds it. There's even an interesting association with Bran's cave:

The roots were everywhere, twisting through earth and stone, closing off some passages and holding up the roofs of others. All the color is gone, Bran realized suddenly. The world was black soil and white wood. The heart tree at Winterfell had roots as thick around as a giant’s legs, but these were even thicker.

All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above.

So I think the "genetic" component is the speculation into the magical history of the Stark family this dream and other passages are designed to evoke. From a character perspective it is more "tradition." Despite the intentions to leave an old life behind, one carries the lessons, experiences and values into the new life and they serve as tools to be used to forge the self. For Jon "I am the blood of Winterfell" strikes me as an identity choice-- a choice he will need mantras like "the Watch takes no part" to suppress as the story progresses.

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Here are some parallels between the Jon/Ygritte subplot and the Rhaegar/Lyanna subplot. We have a major case of "Like father, like son" going on. GRRM may be using Jon's story to tell us about the mysterious actions of Rhaegar.



1) Subject is sent by boss to deal with a supposed enemy, only to find the figure to be an attractive woman, whom the subject allows to escape.


Acting on the instructions of Qhorin, Jon finds Ygriite in the Skirling Pass. He lets her escape.


Acting on instructions from Aerys, Rhaegar searches for TKotLT. We don't know what really happened, but Rhaegar probably found Lyanna and told no one about his discovery. He later crowned her QoLaB.



2) Subject later absconds with the woman under circumstances which seem dishonorable/treasonous, but actually are for a greater good.


Jon joins Ygritte and the Wildings. It may look to some as if he's deserting, but he's actually a spy.


Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna. In reality, it's probably an elopement, and Rhaegar is trying to fulfill a prophesy (tPtwP) for a higher reason.



3) Subject leaves the woman to fight her people.


Jon escapes, and defends castle Black against the Wildings.


Rhaegar leaves the ToJ, and leads an army to the Trident to battle the Stark-Arryn-Tully-Baratheon rebels.



Everyone is eagerly awaiting the future info dump from Barristan Selmy or Howland Reed that will tell us all about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but this may be GRRM's way of giving us clues about Rhaegar - just study his son.



We will probably never hear an account of Lyanna and Rhaegar's first meeting (if it indeed happened that way) (ETA for clarity - when Rhaegar found out Lyanna was TKotLT) but it was undoubtedly one of the most important moments in the story. Was it anything like the first meeting between Jon "the hidden ice dragon" Snow and Ygritte 'kissed by fire"? (Note the curious reversal of gender/element affiliations.) Should we see Arthur Dayne as Rhaegar's "Qhorin"? (Not a superior officer, of course, but as a co-conspirator who eventually sacrificed his life to make the plan work?)



Can anyone spot anything else about Rhaegar in Jon's story? Or am I seeing things that aren't there? Can I find some way to write other than asking questions?


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"The Magnar's a lord on Skagos," Noye said. "There were Skagossans at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember talk of him."

I think this foreshadows that after Davos finds Rickon, he will land with the Skagosi at Eastwatch.


To me, it was despicable that Jon chose to sacrifice the thousands of people he was supposed to save by his warning, just so that he personally wouldn't feel bad. To me, it was rejection of Aemon's "ravens versus doves" lesson and rejection of Qorin's "our honor means no more than our lives so long as the realm is safe", as well as wasting of his sacrifice _and_ of the poor old man's death, that Jon knew would happen anyway.

Refusing to kill an innocent man is despicable? Even in utilitarian terms, the less good for the greatest isn't considered to be despicable. To be completely fair, if you were Jon what would you have done in that position? It wasn't really confirmed that the Magnar was going to have Jon killed for refusing. I was also in way justifying Jaime pushing Bran out the window.

Good comparison, Ibbison from Ibben.

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