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Newstar

Timett son of Timett: Lost Heir to the Vale?

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I came across this theory a while ago, when some other posters pointed it out, and it is my far my favourite crackpot theory. You can keep your secret Targ nonsense; this is the Veuve Clicquot to their sparkling grape juice cocktails.



This theory comes from Littlefinger's steaming pile of exposition to Sansa in the last AFFC chapter, where he explains to her just how it is that Harry is "Harry the Heir." Harry is the son of the youngest daughter of Elys Waynwood and Alys Arryn.





"Meantime, Elys was plowing Alys quite dutifully, and she was whelping once a year. She gave him nine children, eight girls and one precious little boy, another Jasper, after which she died exhausted. Boy Jasper, inconsiderate of the heroic efforts that had gone into begetting him, got himself kicked in the head by a horse when he was three years old. A pox took two of his sisters soon after, leaving six. The eldest married Ser Denys Arryn, a distant cousin to the Lords of the Eyrie. (...) Ser Denys left his pregnant Waynwood wife to ride to war. He died during the Battle of the Bells, of an excess of gallantry and an axe. When they told his lady of his death she perished of grief, and her newborn son soon followed. (...) Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy. The third wed the Lord of the Paps, but proved barren. The fourth was on her way to the riverlands to marry some Bracken when Burned Men carried her off. That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished.” He turned her hand over and lightly kissed her wrist. “So tell me, sweetling—why is Harry the Heir"


First of all, Littlefinger's explanation is very long and convoluted. The above lengthy passage has been edited down considerably. That leads one to speculate as to why GRRM would make this explanation so long and wordy. Why did Elys and Alys have nine children who needed to be accounted for to make Harry the Heir and not two? True, GRRM loves nothing more than a pointless, overlong passage full of irrelevant detail, but there's no food or Westeros geography/ancient history here, so the elaborate detail is a bit of a mystery...UNLESS, that is, GRRM wanted to bury a very important clue in a pile of exposition so that it would be overlooked.



So let's go back to Alys Arryn and Elys Waynwood's children and their issue, which is how Harry comes to be Harry the Heir:



1. Son Jasper - died at 3 [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO ISSUE]


2. Daughter 1 - dead of pox [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO ISSUE]


3. Daughter 2 - dead of pox [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO ISSUE]


4. Daughter 3 - wed Denys, died of grief, newborn son perished [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO LIVING ISSUE]


5. Daughter 4 - scarred by pox, became septa [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO ISSUE]


6. Daughter 5 - joined the silent sisters, her bastard child died [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO LIVING ISSUE]


7. Daughter 6 - wed, proved barren [ACCOUNTED FOR, NO ISSUE]


8. Daughter 7 - carried off by the Burned Men [uNACCOUNTED FOR]


9. Daughter 8, the youngest - wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave birth to Harry, died [ACCOUNTED FOR, ONLY ONE LIVING CHILD]



So to review this list, everyone is accounted for, either having joined celibate religious orders, having died childless or having died with no living issue, except for the daughter who was carried off by the Burned Men. We don't know what happened to her, even though we know what happened to every other person on that list. We do know that she's older than Harry's mother, meaning that any legitimate male children she bore would come before Harry in the line of succession.



So that brings us back to Timett (son of Timett). What do we know about him?



1. He's the only named member of the Burned Men, the most feared tribe of the Mountains of the Moon.


2. He put out his left eye with a hot knife in the customary Burned Men rite of manhood (instead of slicing off a nipple or a finger as was usual), and his feat so impressed the Burned Men that they instantly named him a red hand, which seems to be a kind of war chief.


3. Even Bronn keeps a respectful tongue around him.


4. He's reached the age of manhood, but he has not yet reached his twentieth year as of AGOT according to Tyrion (which would put him at 21 or 22 as of TWOW).


5. He fought in the Battle of Green Fork.


6. He killed a wineseller's son for cheating him at tiles and ripped out his throat with his bare hands.


7. He's not one for long speeches.


8. Refers to King's Landing as a "city of whores" ("Shagga wants every whore in this city of whores").


9. When Tyrion saves Sansa from Joffrey's beating, Timett is present as well as Bronn, and Bronn and Timett bring Sansa to the Tower of the Hand.


10. Tyrion offers Timett to Sansa as a bodyguard.


11. He fights in the kingswood to attack Stannis' camp, and heads back to the Mountains of the Moon after that.


12. A village elder warns Sandor in ASOS that the Burned Men are fearless since Timett One-Eye came back (and "One-Eye" is a nickname Timett never had prior to this, so it suggests that his fame is growing).



Now, there are lots of tribes among the clansmen that are named: the Stone Crows, the Black Ears, the Moon Brothers, the Sons of the Mist, the Painted Dogs, the Milk Snakes. etc. Yet GRRM chose the Burned Men for Harry's aunt's abductors, not one of the other clans, and the only named member of the Burned Men is a young man.



The other thing about Timett is that we learn right away in AGOT that he's special. He's the most feared member of the most feared mountain clan: the Burned Men are so hardcore that all the other mountain clans are afraid of them, and Timett is so hardcore that the other Burned Men are afraid of him. So it seems like we're meant to take note of Timett; we even learn a bit of his backstory (the story of how he lost his eye), unlike the other clansmen, who don't merit that level of detail. Could it be setup for Timett being important later on?



The elephant in the room is that even if Timett is Harry's older cousin, it seems highly unlikely that he's legitimate. It's not even known whether the mountain clansmen practice marriage, although the wildlings do so, and even if Timett's father married his mother, whether that marriage would be considered legitimate.



However, making the wild assumption that Timett is somehow legitimate, what would be the significance of that?



Given what we know of Harry the Heir, Timett is the anti-Harry. Timett is a man of few words and is curt, while Harry is charming and beguiling. Timett is a certified badass, a feared warlord and the most terrifying of the most terrifying clansmen, while Harry's only victory is in a tourney that was rigged to enable him to win ("It was meant for Harry the Heir to win the honours, and so he did"). Timett has no discernible interest in women (chiding Shagga for his interest in whores, taking no interest in the naked serving girl he is asked to escort from the room as opposed to Shagga, who claims that he wants her), while Harry's quite the womanizer and has already fathered one bastard with another on the way. These comparisons wouldn't mean much of anything under any other circumstances, but if Timett is the legitimate heir and not Harry, those comparisons become very interesting. Timett/Harry reminds me a bit of Bronn/Vardis.



The other thing about Timett is that not only is he connected to the fate of Harry's aunt--if only by virtue of being a member of the clan that abducted her, if it turns out that Harry's aunt isn't his mother--he also knows who Sansa Stark is, since he was present when she was beaten and he escorted her along with Bronn to the Tower of the Hand. Again, that could be an irrelevant detail--Chella, a non-member of the Burned Men, guarded Sansa, not Timett--or it could be important for future events.



So what's the significance of the above? Could be nothing more than an Easter egg for readers. On the other hand, the village elder noting that the Burned Men and the clansmen have become increasingly aggressive suggests that the mountain clansmen could be making their presence known in the Vale in a big way in future books. Also, if anyone's going to rally and organize the mountain clans to wage war on the Vale, I get the feeling it will be Timett. If he does turn out to have Arryn blood after all--legitimate or not--it would be pretty delicious to have him be the one to spearhead the campaign to conquer it. (I don't know that the mountain clans are in any shape to wage war on the Vale, of course, only that if they do, I imagine it will be Timett running the show for some reason, if only for the possible Arryn connection there.)



Back in AGOT, Tyrion promised Gunthor son of Gurn back in AGOT that he would give the Stone Crows--and by extension the rest of the mountain clans, it seems--the Vale. If Timett is what this crackpot theory says he is, and if that somehow winds up proving relevant in the succession for the Vale (and I admit I'm not really seeing how the Vale will roll over and accept a barbarian raider who's been terrorizing them as their lord, short of conquering the Vale), that promise may well be fulfilled. Not to mention Timett is likely still loyal to Tyrion (although it's debatable as he abandoned Tyrion after Blackwater to head back to the Mountains of the Moon).


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timett maybe the grandchild of Alys Arryn but he is not a legitimate son by Westerosi rules, just a bastard born from a clansman.


So, Timett, if he knows or care, he couldnt prove it anyway.


Mountains clans from the Vale behave like the free folk, they dont care about ancestry or laws.



If Timett intends to conquer the vale, he would try it for himself, and to repay the andal population for thousand years of war...well assuming the clansmen are the remnants of the first men who never bend to the Arryn's rule.



But i agree he will obviously play a bigger part latter, if Tyrion ever returns to Westeros. He provided the clans with fine weapons and won their respect, as they didnt follow his lead for money, unlike Bronn and other sellswords.



Nice theory, but finally irrelevant, so. Harry the heir is...the heir. Timett is a bloodthirsty savage. He wont be a fine lord of the vale.

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I love this theory, but I think it is just an easter egg of sorts. The lords of the Vale bowing down to the mountain clans is very unlikely. Though if they are going to make a move, winter would probably be the time.


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The clansmen will surely make their appearance in tWoW. I believe HtH will turn out to be a douche of epic proportions and that he'll be killed before tWoW ends. However, I don't see SR dying something that needs to happen before Timmet even has a shot at getting the Eyrie.

I could however see him become Lord of the Clans. If Tyrion and Dany end up in the Vale they would be in the position of finally stopping the fighting between First Men clans and Andal Vale men. The most logical thing than would be to appoint one man as Lord of the Mountain Clans, that could very well be Timet.

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It would be funny if Timmet conquer the Vales and the only reason Sansa isnt killed/raped is because she is Tyrion's wife, who Timett son of Timett owns some respect.



ETA: even so, Timett could do a "Robert" when he takes the Vales by force and claim he has Arryn blood to calm down some highly pissed off/loyal Houses


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The more I read the more I believed the following:

Yes Timett has been built up and will most likely control the tribesman/clans, but instead of being the heir couldn't it simply be that because he knows Sansa and she knows him that she will win his allegiance, and by doing so all of the clansman, to join the forces of the Vale?

They may even know a way out of the Vale and into the Riverlands!

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The clansmen will surely make their appearance in tWoW. I believe HtH will turn out to be a douche of epic proportions and that he'll be killed before tWoW ends. However, I don't see SR dying something that needs to happen before Timmet even has a shot at getting the Eyrie.

I could however see him become Lord of the Clans. If Tyrion and Dany end up in the Vale they would be in the position of finally stopping the fighting between First Men clans and Andal Vale men. The most logical thing than would be to appoint one man as Lord of the Mountain Clans, that could very well be Timet.

It is hard to see the Vale getting behind him and I do not think he has the men to take the Vale with just the clans. I agree that if he is some sort of Arryn that he could unite the clans and get more recognition from the Eyrie. He could end up supporting his kinsemen Robert if his claim to the Vale is being undermined by Harry and Roberts people are willing to make some concessions. Still if Roberts life is danger from Harry or his supporters and if Timmet is indeed his kin and allies himself with Robert, Robert could name him Lord Protecter and his heir in place of Harry. Still it seems a long shot. It seems like Sansa would want to flee to White Harbor if she had a choice and brings Robert with her there if he manages to survive. Politically it would be more acceptable in the Vale for the Starks to govern them during Roberts minority and the relation of the Starks kids are closer than Timmets or Harrys. I actually think that whoever is the Lord Protecter of Winterfell could end up ruling the Vale as well if Robert arrives in White harbor with Robert and Robert asks for protection.

My crackpot theory is that Kella is or belieives that she is Jon Snows Mother(she is the woman who got Ned to the Sisters at the beginning of Roberts rebellion) and that she will play a similar role with Sansa and possibly Robert if things fall out that way.

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timett maybe the grandchild of Alys Arryn but he is not a legitimate son by Westerosi rules, just a bastard born from a clansman.

So, Timett, if he knows or care, he couldnt prove it anyway.

Mountains clans from the Vale behave like the free folk, they dont care about ancestry or laws.

If Timett intends to conquer the vale, he would try it for himself, and to repay the andal population for thousand years of war...well assuming the clansmen are the remnants of the first men who never bend to the Arryn's rule.

But i agree he will obviously play a bigger part latter, if Tyrion ever returns to Westeros. He provided the clans with fine weapons and won their respect, as they didnt follow his lead for money, unlike Bronn and other sellswords.

Nice theory, but finally irrelevant, so. Harry the heir is...the heir. Timett is a bloodthirsty savage. He wont be a fine lord of the vale.

"When you meet your gods," a different voice replied, "say it was Gunthor, son of Gurn of the Stone Crows who sent you"

This implies that the mountain clans don't worship the Seven. I think it is likely they are descendants of the noble houses of the First Men who refused to cast aside the Old Gods and accept the Arryns as their kings, and were driven from the Vale by the Andals. I think it is possible the Waynwood girl could have been married before a heart tree, otherwise why give him the secret Arryn heritage if it won't impact the story somehow? Being Robert's legitimate heir would throw a wrench into LF's plans, and Timett isn't the tool Harry is given while Harry is a spoiled boy who got what he has served to him on a silver platter, Timett is a man who had to sacrifice (his eye) to get to where he is.

Interesting comparison of Timett and HtH, Newstar.

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"When you meet your gods," a different voice replied, "say it was Gunthor, son of Gurn of the Storm Crows who sent you"

This implies that the mountain clans don't worship the Seven. I think it is likely they are descendants of the nobles house of the First Men who refused to cast aside the Old Gods and accept the Arryns as their kings, and were driven from the Vale by the Andals. I think it is possible the Waynwood girl could have been married before a heart tree, otherwise why give him the secret Arryn heritage if it won't impact the story somehow? Being Robert's legitimate heir would throw a wrench into LF's plans, and Timett isn't the tool Harry is given while Harry is a spoiled boy who got what he has served to him on a silver platter while Timett is a man who had to sacrifice (his eye) to get to where he is.

Interesting comparison of Timett and HtH, Newstar.

Is that like button ever coming back?

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I absolutely love this crackpottery, and while i dont think Timmet son of Timmet will be Lord of the Vale, it is possible.he has Arryn blood and is a nice nugget for devoted readers.

Just as an explanation why he wouldnt be accepted; LF mentions that there are some Arryn's of Gulltown wjo.wed a merchant.family, but nobody speaks of them anymore. If thats what comes from.marrying a.merhant, what comes of.marrying into the mountain clans, hehe

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Timmett being well-disposed towards Sansa because of the Halfman is one possibility.


Timmett realizing Alayne is Sansa is another - after all, her disguise is nothing but hair dye and only meeting people she has never met before. It almost failed with Yohn Royce because he met her once when she was a little girl. Timmett met her much more recently. He would know she is a Stark of Winterfell (and blood of the First Men, which may matter here).



Timmett being well-disposed towards Littlefinger is another possibility. After all, LF had some knowledge of them in King's landing. It was while Tyrion was injured after the Blackwater that the Vale clansmen were quickly and efficiently eased out of King's Landing, and out of Tyrion's service. Shagga took up residence in the Kingswood, but Timmett and the rest went back to The Vale - and who else to convince them to do this than someone like Littlefinger, who is of the Vale but like the clansmen, has a long-standing grudge against the existing Vale lords.



In any case, I do not think the tale of the Vale's mountain clans is over.

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A couple of points:

1) I think people are getting a bit carried away in their depictions of Harry based on scant evidence. He might be a pampered ass with more style than substance. Or he might be a young Robert Baratheon. Or he might be a Tyrell. Or he might be all kinds of things. The Tournament was for squires; not necessarily rigged. If rumour can be believed he is either very promiscuous, deeply in love, an irresistible guy who has a hard time saying no, or gotten lucky/unlucky twice. Or the rumours can be doubted.

Remember LF had conflicting motivations with regards to Sansa's opinion of Harry. So his insinuations should be treated with even more caution than usual.

2) An interesting point with regards to Timett knowing Sansa is this: does he regard her as the Halfman's bride, first and foremost? And if so, do they retain loyalty and affection for him, or do they regard him as a man who failed to make good on his promises to them?

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It would be funny if Timmet conquer the Vales and the only reason Sansa isnt killed/raped is because she is Tyrion's wife, who Timett son of Timett owns some respect.

There was this interesting passage from Tyrion and Sansa's conversation in ACOK, where he offers her the clansmen as bodyguards:

“You may sleep here tonight. I’ll give you some of my own men as a guard, some Stone Crows perhaps—”

“No,” Sansa blurted out, aghast. If she was locked in the Tower of the Hand, guarded by the dwarf’s men, how would Ser Dontos ever spirit her away to freedom?

“Would you prefer Black Ears? I’ll give you Chella if a woman would make you more at ease.”

“Please, no, my lord, the wildlings frighten me.”

He grinned. “Me as well. But more to the point, they frighten Joffrey and that nest of sly vipers and lickspittle dogs he calls a Kingsguard. With Chella or Timett by your side, no one would dare offer you harm.

I wonder if this is foreshadowing for the clansmen--the Burned Men, or maybe others (Tyrion had a retinue of clansmen from several different clans in ACOK)--serving as Sansa's bodyguards or even her personal army.

1) I think people are getting a bit carried away in their depictions of Harry based on scant evidence.

That he has managed to father two bastards--a crappy, irresponsible thing to do--by the age of 16 is very telling, though. There might be mitigating circumstances, but shrewd, plain-spoken Myranda Royce's contempt for Harry the Heir speaks volumes.

Timmett being well-disposed towards Sansa because of the Halfman is one possibility.

Timmett realizing Alayne is Sansa is another - after all, her disguise is nothing but hair dye and only meeting people she has never met before. It almost failed with Yohn Royce because he met her once when she was a little girl. Timmett met her much more recently. He would know she is a Stark of Winterfell (and blood of the First Men, which may matter here).

Yes, good points both. It may very well be significant that Timett can identify Sansa.

Sansa would likely recognize Timett, too, if she saw him again. He caught her eye along with Shagga at Joffrey's nameday tournament: "a gaunt youth with an empty eye socket where one eye should have been." She also noticed him when Tyrion showed up when she was being beaten:" His pet sellsword stood with him, and one of his wildlings, the one with the burned eye."

Timmett being well-disposed towards Littlefinger is another possibility. After all, LF had some knowledge of them in King's landing. It was while Tyrion was injured after the Blackwater that the Vale clansmen were quickly and efficiently eased out of King's Landing, and out of Tyrion's service. Shagga took up residence in the Kingswood, but Timmett and the rest went back to The Vale - and who else to convince them to do this than someone like Littlefinger, who is of the Vale but like the clansmen, has a long-standing grudge against the existing Vale lords.

Very interesting possibility.

I think it is likely they are descendants of the nobles house of the First Men who refused to cast aside the Old Gods and accept the Arryns as their kings, and were driven from the Vale by the Andals. I think it is possible the Waynwood girl could have been married before a heart tree, otherwise why give him the secret Arryn heritage if it won't impact the story somehow? Being Robert's legitimate heir would throw a wrench into LF's plans, and Timett isn't the tool Harry is given while Harry is a spoiled boy who got what he has served to him on a silver platter, Timett is a man who had to sacrifice (his eye) to get to where he is.

Love it, Fire Eater. And I agree that it's unlikely that GRRM would have gone to the trouble of giving Timett a secret Arryn heritage if it weren't going to play into the story somehow (assuming the theory is correct).

This could gel really well if Dany and Tyrion land in the Vale

Yeah, my problem with the Timett heir theory--beyond the obvious ones like Timett's legitimacy--is that it can't really be tied into Sansa's arc short of some skirmish involving the clansmen which Sansa as POV can witness, or face to face interactions between Timett and Sansa, both of which seem unlikely (the clansmen seem to be content with raiding for the moment, and Sansa's still at the Gates of the Moon). There are a lot of other plot balls to juggle in relation to Sansa--Jaime/Brienne, Sweetrobin, Harry the Heir, Littlefinger, Cersei's hunt for her, Sandor, etc.--and I don't really see a way of tying Timett's parentage into all that. If Dany and/or Tyrion land in the Vale, though, things could get very interesting very quickly, since Tyrion would almost certainly seek the clansmen's backing, bringing Timett back into the picture.

If Timett is a bastard, though, but is aware of his Arryn parentage and makes it known to Tyrion and/or Dany, couldn't Dany legitimize him? installing Timett as the Dany-sanctioned Lord of the Vale seems like the sort of thing Tyrion would pursue if it were in his power, legitimacy and the feelings of the Vale Lords on the subject be damned; it would be a better revenge on the Vale than anything he could have dreamt up.

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I thought this was merely an easter egg for a while, but Newstar's breakdown really opens it up for more, so well done.



It's been mentioned quite a few times that the clans are growing restless, and I have to imagine this will come to a boil at some point, so I agree that that something's being primed toward some denouement.



What's curious is that LF is the one giving this absurdly long exposition, so he'd ostensibly be well aware of this connection, especially in light of having been around Timmett. That kind of stands out the most to me about this; has he made some sort of deal with the clans, perhaps appealing to this heir business, to orchestrate some further chaos? Not that I'd trust LF to actually intend to make Timmett a lord, but that there's been some negotiation there we haven't seen.



Also, fantastic points about Timmett being another person who could recognize Sansa.


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I absolutely love this theory!


I haven't come across it before, and I hadn't thought of it either.


I had however picked up on that anomaly about the girl being carried off by the burned men and I agree that it stands out as providing a lot of...potential for undermining Harry's claim. His claim seems way too torturous for my liking.



My theory was that LF knew where the aunt was, and would use her as collateral to keep Harry in line, revealing her should Harry prove troublesome as the rightful lady of the Vale, but the Timmet theory takes it even further, and again, it could be that LF is aware of who Timmet is and that Timmet is the collateral LF will use to ensure Harry is an obliging and obedient ally to the Lord Of Harrenhal, enabling him to proceed with his plan to remove Robert and still maintain a degree of control as he will probably be the guy asking the Riverlands to rise to aid Catelyn Tully's daughter's claim to Winterfell.



Furthermore, if the Vale marches off to war ne'er to return, I can absolutely see Timmet leaving the Vale with little choice but to accept him as the andals discover that during winter, a leader who worship the Old Gods may not be such a bad idea.


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I like this theory a lot. I don't think Timmett will ever rule the Vale, but I'd like to seem him and the other mountain clans make a reappearance in TWoW.



On a related but unimportant note, if Timmett does have a bigger role to play in future books/TV series, I hope they get a Patrick Swayze look-a-like to play him. ROADHOUSE!


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I think it might just be a little easter egg. I mean even if somehow Timmet was legitimate (i.e his parents married in front of a Heart Tree), the Vale Lords would never support him, and Timmet and the other clansmen are unlikely to care about his legitimacy should they ever get a chance to conquer the Vale.


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