Timett son of Timett: Lost Heir to the Vale?

[Dornishpenguin]

I love this theory. Thank you for breaking it down for us!

I always thought that there was something more to the family history exposition. It was entertaining, but long winded even by GRRM's standards. If the only importance was to introduce Harry, it could have very easily been two or three siblings. Despite being the most random of the unfortunate occurrences, the girl who was abducted by the Burned Men is glossed over in the middle and her story isn't given much detail. Of all the siblings, she is the only one unaccounted for, so if GRRM wanted to show us Harry was the last heir, he'd have probably given her a definite end such as she was abducted and her body was found a week later or so. It's almost like he put her in the middle so readers wouldn't pay too much attention and be shocked if/when Timett is revealed to have Arryn blood. Its true that no matter how awful Harry is, the Vale lords would prefer him to a tribesman, but the political situation is changing. Timett "Arryn" may have a role to play yet in the politics of the Vale, even if it is just taking advantage of a temporary power vacuum only to be ousted a week later.

Also, Timett carved out his own eye to prove his strength. He may have just been making a play to become a chieftain of the tribe, or he could have been trying to overcome the stigma of having a gentlewoman mother.

[I am of the Night]

How bout mad mouse kidnapping Sansa, heading to KL, only to be intercepted by the Burned Men? I live this crackpot!

[Dot Com]

Huh, that's interesting. Crackpot: if Jaime/Brienne escape Stoneheart and head to the Vale, maybe they'll be kidnapped by Burned Men or something. If Sandor somehow manages to find them, then he could go too (the clan is called the "Burned Men" after all).

[the Scorpion Knight]

I thought this was merely an easter egg for a while, but Newstar's breakdown really opens it up for more, so well done.

It's been mentioned quite a few times that the clans are growing restless, and I have to imagine this will come to a boil at some point, so I agree that that something's being primed toward some denouement.

What's curious is that LF is the one giving this absurdly long exposition, so he'd ostensibly be well aware of this connection, especially in light of having been around Timmett. That kind of stands out the most to me about this; has he made some sort of deal with the clans, perhaps appealing to this heir business, to orchestrate some further chaos? Not that I'd trust LF to actually intend to make Timmett a lord, but that there's been some negotiation there we haven't seen.

Also, fantastic points about Timmett being another person who could recognize Sansa.

problem. Timmet might know what a snake LF. and even see LF not even thinking of that connection. (he's drunk during his speech remmember)

I even think lesser lords and knight will flock to the clansmen just to protect them selves.

[Ludd]

This ties with my theory of King Bronn, first of his name, King consort to Lollys, the real Targaryan queen.

I believe that the Stokeworths are the descendents of the half wit daughter overlooked when Aegon (Egg) became King

[Ludd]

Of course the related possibility is that Harry the heir (and Timmett) may also be the Vale descendents which Catelyn wanted to inherit Winterfell.

[Newstar]

How bout mad mouse kidnapping Sansa, heading to KL, only to be intercepted by the Burned Men? I live this crackpot!

I've seen that theory a few times. It seems like the most plausible way--maybe the only plausible way--of bringing Timett and Sansa into contact with one another. There's a thread kicking around which goes into the plot parallels between Tyrion and Sansa. While most of these parallels relate to stuff that happens after the Purple Wedding, Tyrion and his kidnapper (Catelyn) were attacked by the clansmen heading to the Eyrie back in AGOT. Could Sansa and her kidnapper (the Mad Mouse) be attacked by the clansmen in TWOW heading in the opposite direction? It seems like the clansmen's general modus operandi when it comes to raiding is kill the men and take the women (although they would have killed Catelyn when they attacked, I think), so that would explain why the Mad Mouse would get shanked and Sansa would be spared, raising the odds of bringing her into contact with Timett.

It was entertaining, but long winded even by GRRM's standards. If the only importance was to introduce Harry, it could have very easily been two or three siblings. Despite being the most random of the unfortunate occurrences, the girl who was abducted by the Burned Men is glossed over in the middle and her story isn't given much detail. Of all the siblings, she is the only one unaccounted for, so if GRRM wanted to show us Harry was the last heir, he'd have probably given her a definite end such as she was abducted and her body was found a week later or so. It's almost like he put her in the middle so readers wouldn't pay too much attention and be shocked if/when Timett is revealed to have Arryn blood.

Yes, exactly! That's precisely what I thought. Why not have Harry's aunt only have one or two siblings whose fates and lack of children needed to be described, as opposed to eight? It would be a lot simpler and a lot easier...unless GRRM was trying to throw us off the scent by burying that extremely important detail--that one of Harry's older aunts is unaccounted for--in a long, tedious story with tons of tangents and asides.

Its true that no matter how awful Harry is, the Vale lords would prefer him to a tribesman, but the political situation is changing. Timett "Arryn" may have a role to play yet in the politics of the Vale, even if it is just taking advantage of a temporary power vacuum only to be ousted a week later.

Yup. One of the recurring motifs in the books is that ferocious, terrifying killers, no matter how horrible and awful you might find them, are the ones you want in your corner when the shit hits the fan; Tywin told Tyrion just that when discussing Gregor, leading Tyrion to think of the "beasts" helping him (Timett and Bronn, among others).

Of course, I might be thinking about it backwards. Maybe Timett won't play an active role in fighting for leadership of the Vale, but he will outlive Sweetrobin and Harry (who die in ways unrelated to him) and will therefore only wind up being the only Arryn left. It could be a bit of a Henry Tudor situation, where all the legitimate claimants die, with the only claimant left standing the one with the claim through bastardy.

On a related but unimportant note, if Timmett does have a bigger role to play in future books/TV series, I hope they get a Patrick Swayze look-a-like to play him. ROADHOUSE!

LOL, because of the "gaunt" description, and because for some reason Timett's always pictured in ASOIAF art as having dark hair (even though his hair colour is not specified in the books), I imagine Timett as a one-eyed Ben Whishaw dressed like a Viking. :D Now there's an image! :D

Furthermore, if the Vale marches off to war ne'er to return, I can absolutely see Timmet leaving the Vale with little choice but to accept him as the andals discover that during winter, a leader who worship the Old Gods may not be such a bad idea.

Could be, although great houses have gone extinct before. It seems likely that the Vale lords' objection to a clansman who had terrorized them would outweigh their desire to preserve the Arryn succession. Of course, they may not have a choice in the matter, if Timett's lordship was demanded by a dragon-backed faction...and I could see Tyrion trying to install Timett as Lord of the Vale as the ultimate revenge on the Vale.

[tze]

I've always liked the "Timett Arryn" theory, but the only way I could realistically see the issue entering the plot (other than as an Easter Egg) is if Timett's mother is still alive to vouch for his parentage. (Presumably there are at least some Vale nobles still living who met her prior to her kidnapping and who could, at least theoretically, positively identify her). Without some sort of pretty undeniable proof of parentage, there's no way the Vale Lords would ever even consider bending the knee to someone like Timett. (Not even with "dragon" backing, honestly.) And even with undeniable proof of parentage, someone like Timett would be a pretty tough pill for the Vale Lords to swallow.

But if Timett's mother is still alive, she would have a claim to the Vale in her own right, with Timett as her heir. It seems that, given the murkiness of Westerosi inheritance laws (coupled with the culture's misogyny), sons can sometimes---but not always---be pushed ahead of their mothers in the line of succession. This, however, would be a case where (if this theory is correct) I could see the lords being far more eager to support the castle-raised mother than the mountains-raised son. And it would be far more plausible for Timett to ultimately end up with the Vale (if he ever does) should he inherit it from a mother who once ruled the Vale in her own right, and who was able to build and facilitate relationships between the lords and her son during the time she was ruling.

[jarl the climber]

I also think Timmet would have to marry Sansa or at least one Bronze Yohns daughters. He definitely has more weight and expereince as a fighter than Harry. He does seem sober and restrained in his personal habits and morals. So yes if he had a good marriage and continued to have a good reputation as a fighter and brought about a peace with the clans, he could be a viable heir to Robert or his Mother. His Mother is older than Harrys so it seems like his claim would be better.

[Jon Flowers]

I've always liked the "Timett Arryn" theory, but the only way I could realistically see the issue entering the plot (other than as an Easter Egg) is if Timett's mother is still alive to vouch for his parentage. (Presumably there are at least some Vale nobles still living who met her prior to her kidnapping and who could, at least theoretically, positively identify her). Without some sort of pretty undeniable proof of parentage, there's no way the Vale Lords would ever even consider bending the knee to someone like Timett. (Not even with "dragon" backing, honestly.) And even with undeniable proof of parentage, someone like Timett would be a pretty tough pill for the Vale Lords to swallow.

But if Timett's mother is still alive, she would have a claim to the Vale in her own right, with Timett as her heir. It seems that, given the murkiness of Westerosi inheritance laws (coupled with the culture's misogyny), sons can sometimes---but not always---be pushed ahead of their mothers in the line of succession. This, however, would be a case where (if this theory is correct) I could see the lords being far more eager to support the castle-raised mother than the mountains-raised son. And it would be far more plausible for Timett to ultimately end up with the Vale (if he ever does) should he inherit it from a mother who once ruled the Vale in her own right, and who was able to build and facilitate relationships between the lords and her son during the time she was ruling.

I was thinking the same thing regarding Timett's potential palatability to the Lords of the Vale. And if one couples that with the high likelihood that his mother would either be dead or unable to prove her identity sufficiently to satisfy everyone concerned (and far sterner than normal proofs are likely to be demanded by those opposing such a claim), then Timett's chances of coming into his own either through his mother or in his own right, must be extremely remote, even presupposing the legitimacy of his claim. Of course, this problem could be circumvented easily enough through the use of a conveniently unique birthmark, but since I think that Martin would be unlikely to rely upon such a common device as Chekov's Birthmark (I hope), I come back once again to the thought that Whatever the strength of any claims that Timett may or may not possess, his realization of such claims would necessarily be next to impossible.

[Kasporio]

Yohn would rather cut off his daughters throat than marry any to a ruthless, fucked up barbarian.

Try at least to make your crackpot theories a bit realistic.

The noble houses of the vale would never accept a Baelish, who is after all a paragon of virtue and tactfulness, they'll never accept a clansmen.

They are a nuisance, and the vale nobility doesnt need them.

[James Arryn]

I don't think the Arryns are really in danger. There's the whole cadet branch if worst comes to worst.

[Jon Flowers]

One interesting thing that might come of Timett attempting to press a potential claim to the Vale might be the reunification (in spirit) of its lords. I don't tend to think much of the unanimity of the Lord's of the Vale, even with their "declaration" and in my opinion, one of the few things that may be able to quickly unify such a group of strong willed, self-centered individuals would be an imminent threat from the Clansmen of the Vale. This seems to me to give a plausible literary purpose for such a Timett storyline aside from simply being an easter egg, since I've already mostly discounted his actual chances for success. The need to fight off the clans and the realization that they have been armed by the Lannisters, provides all the reason that the Vale could ever need for unification behind an opponent of the Iron Throne.

[Newstar]

I've always liked the "Timett Arryn" theory, but the only way I could realistically see the issue entering the plot (other than as an Easter Egg) is if Timett's mother is still alive to vouch for his parentage. (Presumably there are at least some Vale nobles still living who met her prior to her kidnapping and who could, at least theoretically, positively identify her). Without some sort of pretty undeniable proof of parentage, there's no way the Vale Lords would ever even consider bending the knee to someone like Timett. (Not even with "dragon" backing, honestly.)

Oh, no, I agree that Timett's mother would have to be alive and available to vouch for his parentage for any of this to work. Otherwise, it's pretty much dead in the water as a relevant plot point. I can't imagine any scenario, dragons or not, where Timett or the other Burned Men claiming that his dead mom was an Arryn would carry any weight whatsoever with anyone. Tyrion, who seemed to trust Timett, wouldn't even believe that story, let alone the Vale lords, who have good reason to distrust Timett and discount whatever he tells them.

But if Timett's mother is still alive, she would have a claim to the Vale in her own right, with Timett as her heir.

Mmm, good point. Hadn't thought of that. That leads to an interesting problem, as you point out: either Timett's mom is dead and Timett's claim is a non-issue, or Timett's mom is around and has a claim in her own right, a claim far more palatable than her warlord son's. To be fair, even though the Vale lords would be far happier with a castle-raised lady than with a mountain-raised savage, I doubt they'd be too thrilled with Timett's mother, either. One would hope they'd be understanding of her situation as a captive, but I have to wonder if they'd be suspicious of the nature of her relationship with the clansmen, whether she'd "gone native" and would promote their interests over the Vale's, etc. etc.

Of course, this problem could be circumvented easily enough through the use of a conveniently unique birthmark, but since I think that Martin would be unlikely to rely upon such a common device as Chekov's Birthmark (I hope)

Well, the distinctive, apparently genetically overwhelming Baratheon colouring marking Robert's bastards is a bit of a Chekhov's Birthmark in a sense, but I agree an actual birthmark or somesuch is very unlikely.

.

...On another note, one thing that struck me as odd, and I could be mistaken on this, is that in the entirety of the AFFC Sansa/Littlefinger plotline, which deals with issues in the Vale, not once are the clansmen mentioned except for Littlefinger's aside about the Arryn (well, Waynwood, but Arryn-blooded) girl being carried off by the Burned Men. All we find out in AFFC is that the high road to the Vale is closed by snow, and that's in a Brienne chapter (and now that I think about it, that kind of rules out a situation where Sansa and the Mad Mouse get attacked on the high road after he kidnaps her, since he wouldn't take the high road in any event). It seems like a curious omission.

[Mad Monkey]

Oh, no, I agree that Timett's mother would have to be alive and available to vouch for his parentage for any of this to work. Otherwise, it's pretty much dead in the water as a relevant plot point. I can't imagine any scenario, dragons or not, where Timett or the other Burned Men claiming that his dead mom was an Arryn would carry any weight whatsoever with anyone. Tyrion, who seemed to trust Timett, wouldn't even believe that story, let alone the Vale lords, who have good reason to distrust Timett and discount whatever he tells them.

I bet if Littlefinger vouched for him, people would believe it. People generally seem to roll over for that guy no matter how unreasonable or implausible his demands are.

To be fair, even though the Vale lords would be far happier with a castle-raised lady than with a mountain-raised savage, I doubt they'd be too thrilled with Timett's mother, either. One would hope they'd be understanding of her situation as a captive, but I have to wonder if they'd be suspicious of the nature of her relationship with the clansmen, whether she'd "gone native" and would promote their interests over the Vale's, etc. etc.

If Timmet and Timmet's mom made a play for the Vale, they would probably work in concert. I would see it as a situation like Lady Hornwood and Larence Snow. The Hornwood lands belong to her in her own right, but she wanted a male heir (even one who was just a bastard) to help secure her claim because without one it would be easy for one of her neighbors to just horn in on her wood (if you get my meaning).

I'm vague about the timeline here but it sounds like Timett's mother would probably be too old to have any additional sons at this point in the series, so the fact that she already has one strong, healthy adult son with leadership experience would probably strengthen her claim even though he is otherwise unsuitable (similar to how Larence could have theoretically strengthened Donella's claim even though he was unsuitable).

[butterbumps!]

...On another note, one thing that struck me as odd, and I could be mistaken on this, is that in the entirety of the AFFC Sansa/Littlefinger plotline, which deals with issues in the Vale, not once are the clansmen mentioned except for Littlefinger's aside about the Arryn (well, Waynwood, but Arryn-blooded) girl being carried off by the Burned Men. All we find out in AFFC is that the high road to the Vale is closed by snow, and that's in a Brienne chapter (and now that I think about it, that kind of rules out a situation where Sansa and the Mad Mouse get attacked on the high road after he kidnaps her, since he wouldn't take the high road in any event). It seems like a curious omission.

I think you're right wrt the omission from FFC. This might bear mention from aSoS:

From a village Elder in an Arya chapter:

“If you don’t freeze or starve, the shadowcats will get you, or the cave bears. There’s the clans as well. The Burned Men are fearless since Timett One-Eye came back from the war. And half a year ago, Gunthor son of Gurn led the Stone Crows down on a village not eight miles from here. They took every woman and every scrap of grain, and killed half the men. They have steel now, good swords and mail hauberks, and they watch the high road—the Stone Crows, the Milk Snakes, the Sons of the Mist, all of them."

And wrt the LF/ Sansa plot, we get these as well:

Lysa: "The Blackfish was my Knight of the Gate, and since he left us the mountain clans are growing very bold. Petyr will soon set all that to rights, though. I shall make him Lord Protector of the Vale.”

Sansa: The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. The mountain clans were being troublesome as well, and old Lord Hunter had died so suddenly that his two younger sons were accusing their elder brother of having murdered him.

So are they unmentioned because Petyr's already "set them to rights?" It's curious that the danger of the emboldened clansmen are what prevents both Brienne and Sandor from sneaking around in the Vale; they've become a key deterrent, effectively isolating the Vale further. Which is noteworthy in that it works to LF's advantage. And from the Arya passage, the clansmen weren't harrying Vale residents; they're tormenting the borderlands. That is, they could be going after people within the Vale, but if so, that's not being mentioned; it almost sounds like they're creating havoc at the border.

I guess I'm skeptical about whether Timett could conceivably hold the Vale as an heir, but rather, curious about whether the heir issue is part of some negotiation so that the clans are currently being used to LF's advantage.

[a free shadow]

It was interesting to read! And even if no tangible thing comes of it, it is one more thing that expanded the world of the books for me. So thanks!

I probably would even prefer no possible ancestry coming to light in the books, so that it only adds to the perspective of the (now informed! :D )reader, if/when they read about Timmet trying to win the Vale. I think I would like to read about him being involved in the recognition/kidnap/rescuing of Sansa though.

[Baelor Swyft]

I like it. Good catch, Newstar.

[Muggle]

i always assumed pretty much all of the mountain clans were the remnants of the Mountain Kings from the blood of the first men that got kicked out by the Andals mainly Artys Arryn

[kiasyd]

+1 for the rise of the bastards. :-)