Sansa Stark

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Err... I was referring to her naivety. Hence my examples if you read the rest of my post. I.e. Ned seeing the good in Bobby B and bypassing the bad.

Ned and Robert didn't talk after the sack of KL because of Ned's disgust as his actions with the Targaryen kids. Only Lyanna's death brought them back together. After that they didn't talk for over a decade while Ned was back in Winterfell. After a week together, Eddard publicly shames Robert by remarking that he didn't have enough courage with regards to the execution of Lady. Then Eddard fucking resigns as Hand because of Robert's dishonor.

It's like you people don't even read the books before posting. As for Sansa, she's a terrible judge of character and incredibly naive. She's the opposite of Aria. But then by aSoS we see how all of the drastic things that happened to her have matured her. She's thinking about things beyond superficiality and judging people for who they really are. Let's not go ahead and proclaim her a mastermind of anything yet though.

[Annara Snow]

Actually I totally blame Cat for Sansa.As far as I understand Cat let Arya do whatever she wanted after sometime trying to make her like Sansa.And it seems like Ned was the one who encouraged his children to be free.Sansa is just like Sandor says, she is a bird who sings whatever you tell her.Sansa is one of my least favourite characters.Her chapters are boring as hell, she is constantly doing something stupid and she has no loyalty to her family she casts aside her family like they are nothing.

I'm really curious, when did she "cast aside her family like they are nothing"?

[Annara Snow]

After rereading her chapters in AGOT, I've come to the conclusion is that Sansa is perceptive and can pick things up about people, especially in the scene when she figured out who Barristan Selmy and Renly are. That said, she has one huge flaw that's preventing her from utilizing her instincts and observation skills to her full potential: she purposely chooses to see what she wants to see.

You can tell in AGOT that she's convincing herself to believe Joffrey is the perfect prince she thought he was and that Cersei is the noble queen. I love Sansa, but it's so frustrating to read her early chapters because she is clearly refusing to accept the truth that maybe the Lannisters aren't as good as she dreamt them to be. I was one of the people who disliked her in the beginning, but it wasn't because she was stupid, it was because she was closing her eyes and ears to reality and holding onto her naive dreams of her life being like a song. She was willfully ignorant, not stupid.

Littlefinger is the best example of this. When she met him, she was immediately uncomfortable and could sense he was not someone to trust. She was able to see through him for what he was better than majority of people in Westeros who just see him as this amiable character (Jaime's description of him comes to mind here). And Sansa continues to feel uncomfortable and distrusting of him ... up until the end of AFFC. In the beginning of AFFC she noted the difference between Petyr and Littlefinger and saw him as someone who lies and didn't truly have her interests at heart. But by the end of the book, she she's seem to put her suspicions of him at the back of her mind and goes along with him blindly. I don't blame Sansa - she's been isolated in the Eyrie and feels like she has no one in the world to trust anymore. Hopefully things will change in the next book now that she's heard his plans and is in a location that makes her less dependent on Littlefinger.

I'm a firm believer Sansa's arc and future is tied to the political side of the story, but in order for her to become a player she needs to rely on her observation and instincts more and less on how she wishes people to be. If she stops trying to convince herself everything is okay, then I think she can be a powerful player in the game. :)

I agree. This is what I tried to say in my first post on this thread, you probably put it clearer than I did.

[RedChick]

<Snip>

Great post, I agree.

Ned and Robert didn't talk after the sack of KL because of Ned's disgust as his actions with the Targaryen kids. Only Lyanna's death brought them back together. After that they didn't talk for over a decade while Ned was back in Winterfell. After a week together, Eddard publicly shames Robert by remarking that he didn't have enough courage with regards to the execution of Lady. Then Eddard fucking resigns as Hand because of Robert's dishonor.

This post expresses my views in regards to Ned & Bob better than I can.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Great post, I agree.

This post expresses my views in regards to Ned & Bob better than I can.

Robert is his sovereign and lifetime friend. He realizes fully who he's become but hopes desperately that there's still some of the old Robert there. He fully acknowledges all of Robert's wrongs and blames him for all of it. That's nothing like Sansa or what I originally quoted. So perhaps next time you can't take some time to articulate your own thoughts to the subject at hand.

[bloodofwinterfell]

Regarding Sansa and Ned - I don't get why it's so controversial to say they're similar? They obviously aren't exactly the same, so saying "Ned did X and Sansa would NEVER do that!" doesn't really make sense to me. They are similar in their tendency to be naive and look for the best in people, but that doesn't mean Sansa is his clone.

[Winter's Knight]

You are re-thinking Sansa for 21st time, why does this require a different thread ? Couldn't you just take it over there .

I wanted to share an interesting article with the others.

There are plenty of non-Sansa threads, why don't you take your bad attitude over there?

[RedChick]

Regarding Sansa and Ned - I don't get why it's so controversial to say they're similar? They obviously aren't exactly the same, so saying "Ned did X and Sansa would NEVER do that!" doesn't really make sense to me. They are similar in their tendency to be naive and look for the best in people, but that doesn't mean Sansa is his clone.

Yep, pretty much what I'm trying to say. Don't understand why this such a problem with people. :dunno:

[jon stark I]

Hello Jon. This is the first impression of many posters here about Sansa. Not saying my opinion is in any way greater/better than you, but do have a look at this thread. It is on it's 21st version right now. :)

Oh I know that thread.But I am not talking about her development.Thanks anyway.(We really need to find a short name for you is it okey for you that I just say AryaK to you?)

Her development is clear to see at least she is not like a smug rich girl anymore, she shows more interest she can figure things out more quickly and she is not that close minded to things that happen around her but she is still not that active.And when I say she is not intelligent please don't take it the wrong way.What I mean is she was a little like Cersei in the begining(don't take this the wrong way too let me explain).Cersei was just like Sansa when she was a child or teen in westorosi culture she was dremaing about Rhaegar and her riding dragons and stuff.Sansa knows what kind of a person Joff is the second she saw how he lied and treid to kill Arya(mycah) but she shuts it out.She is again like Cersei she puts all the blame into her sister(like Cersei did to Tyrion) for something she had no control over(Arya had no control over the events that happened if Sansa told the truth then everything could have been different).After the direwolf events she puts nearly no blame to Joff she blames Arya.Sansa then goes on and tells everthing about Neds plans to Cersei(the important part is not about Cersei knowing already important part is Sansa without thinking about the damage it might cause or the reason of Ned sending them goes on and betrays his family this is the important stuff.).

Sansa then starts to use her brain(or so they tell me).I don't think remaining silent is a sign of intelligence but her use of intellegect in Dontos situation was brilliant.But those brilliant scenes are seen so rare once or twice in the whole series.If you look at the toatl stupid things she did and toatl brilliant things she did then you won't call her a payer.First she goes to Joff and Joff kills her father, brother, mother.Then again she goes to Tyrells just like Joff, Tyrells too show a little affection to a victim who hasn't seen anything but brutalilty for nearly one or two year then tyrells use her for her status.Sansa is just like moth to a flame Sansa runs towards fame and beauty or rather power.I don't think she is a power thirsty witch like Cersei but she is easily fooled by it.

Lately Sansa seems a little more aware of what happens like figuring out LFs plans the second he starts to explain.But still have to say I see no greatness in her.GRRM has to give us some more action or events for showing us her real development.

I have somethnig to say.I always like soo many others compare Sansa to Arya and I think that is the reason most of Sansa haters or dislikers(dislike doesn't mean hate) is because Arya is too much of a genius.Arya discovers plots against her family, Arya discovers peoples intent their intentions the momnet she meets them, Arya can defend herself, Arya learns quickly, Arya adapts easily etc.Arya and Sansa are soo different because of the situation they are in and Arya can show us more about her talents because she always gets into situations that she can show them, on the other hand Sansa is aways in the same situation and she always shows the same reactions that is why we see a little development.If lets say Sansa somehow gets Lady (don't remember her name she was talking her in Eyrie)to her side and secretly gathers her forces by revealing her secret or when she somehow overpowers Lf to his death then we will se the development.But because of the lack of action in her chapters we see a little development on her character.

[Annara Snow]

I have somethnig to say.I always like soo many others compare Sansa to Arya and I think that is the reason most of Sansa haters or dislikers(dislike doesn't mean hate) is because Arya is too much of a genius.Arya discovers plots against her family, Arya discovers peoples intent their intentions the momnet she meets them, Arya can defend herself, Arya learns quickly, Arya adapts easily etc.Arya and Sansa are soo different because of the situation they are in and Arya can show us more about her talents because she always gets into situations that she can show them, on the other hand Sansa is aways in the same situation and she always shows the same reactions that is why we see a little development.

Seriously?

Arya attacked Joffrey to protect Mycah, not thinking about the fact that hitting a crown prince is something that can't end well in the society she lived in. Arya could have gotten herself discovered and caught during Ned's execution, if Yoren hadn't been there to save her ("You're not a very smart boy, is that what you're saying?"). Arya impulsively wasted her two Jaqen kills on completely unimportant people - Gregotr's man Chiswyck, because she was disgusted by his story about gang rape Gregor and his men committed, and the bragging way he told it (and I found it understandable at the time, but it's hardly a mark of genius! Couldn't she at least have asked him to kill Gregor?), and Weese, who was personally mistreating her at the time. Arya ran into the Twins with the crazy idea that she, a tiny little girl with a few months worth of swords training, could save her mother from a whole bunch of armed men within the castle, and would've gotten herself killed, if it hadn't been for Sandor and his ax. Arya is brave, determined, energetic, proactive and doesn't give up, but a wise planner she sure ain't. And so far she hasn't actually managed to achieve anything except survive, save 3-5 people (two of which are Rorge and Biter, not a gain for the world at large), kill a few minor assholes in Lannister service, and help give Harenthal to the Bloody Mummers and Roose Bolton, which proved not to change anything in the big picture.

Mind you, it's not that surviving on the road for so long is not an incredible feat. But it's not like it amounts to much more than what Sansa has been doing - also surviving.

And what plots against her family did Arya uncover? The closest she came to it was accidentally overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio, but she couldn't even retell it well to Ned, so he didn't understand a thing of what she was saying. She was smart enough to realize Roose wasn't to be trusted, but it's not like she was able to do anything about it.

I'm not sure about "Arya discovering people's intentions the moment she meets them". Most of the time she just seems distrustful of everyone and assuming the worst. Granted, that often proves to be a good thing, since many aren't to be trusted, like Roose. But she sure didn't realize what Yoren's intentions were when he caught her in KL. Besides, most people she meets on the road are not going to try to be courteous and pretend to be nice, like people at court do. It's not like you needed to be a genius to know what Rorge would like to do to you, when he's telling it you to your face.

Also, if you're referring to Joffrey, Arya did not know Joffrey was a jerk the moment she met him. She knew it when Jon told her he was a little shit, after seeing the way he talked to the boys while they were playing at swords. If anyone was showing himself to be a good judge of character there, it was Jon. Not that it was hard to see Joffrey was a jerk when you witnessed him behaving like that - unless you were blinding yourself out of infatuation and a desire to see him in a certain way, like Sansa did. Arya was not infatuated, she does not get infatuated and she is no danger of expecting the best out of people; she's more likely to do the opposite and expect the worst of people she's just met.

[jon stark I]

Seriously?

Arya attacked Joffrey to protect Mycah, not thinking about the fact that hitting a crown prince is something that can't end well in the society she lived in. Arya could have gotten herself discovered and caught during Ned's execution, if Yoren hadn't been there to save her ("You're not a very smart boy, is that what you're saying?"). Arya impulsively wasted her two Jaqen kills on completely unimportant people - Gregotr's man Chiswyck, because she was disgusted by his story about gang rape Gregor and his men committed, and the bragging way he told it (and I found it understandable at the time, but it's hardly a mark of genius! Couldn't she at least have asked him to kill Gregor?), and Weese, who was personally mistreating her at the time. Arya ran into the Twins with the crazy idea that she, a tiny little girl with a few months worth of swords training, could save her mother from a whole bunch of armed men within the castle, and would've gotten herself killed, if it hadn't been for Sandor and his ax. Arya is brave, determined, energetic, proactive and doesn't give up, but a wise planner she sure ain't. And so far she hasn't actually managed to achieve anything except survive, save 3-5 people (two of which are Rorge and Biter, not a gain for the world at large), kill a few minor assholes in Lannister service, and help give Harenthal to the Bloody Mummers and Roose Bolton, which proved not to change anything in the big picture.

Mind you, it's not that surviving on the road for so long is not an incredible feat. But it's not like it amounts to much more than what Sansa has been doing - also surviving.

And what plots against her family did Arya uncover? The closest she came to it was accidentally overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio, but she couldn't even retell it well to Ned, so he didn't understand a thing of what she was saying. She was smart enough to realize Roose wasn't to be trusted, but it's not like she was able to do anything about it.

I'm not sure about "Arya discovering people's intentions the moment she meets them". Most of the time she just seems distrustful of everyone and assuming the worst. Granted, that often proves to be a good thing, since many aren't to be trusted, like Roose. But she sure didn't realize what Yoren's intentions were when he caught her in KL. Besides, most people she meets on the road are not going to try to be courteous and pretend to be nice, like people at court do. It's not like you needed to be a genius to know what Rorge would like to do to you, when he's telling it you to your face.

Also, if you're referring to Joffrey, Arya did not know Joffrey was a jerk the moment she met him. She knew it when Jon told her he was a little shit, after seeing the way he talked to the boys while they were playing at swords. If anyone was showing himself to be a good judge of character there, it was Jon. Not that it was hard to see Joffrey was a jerk when you witnessed him behaving like that - unless you were blinding yourself out of infatuation and a desire to see him in a certain way, like Sansa did. Arya was not infatuated, she does not get infatuated and she is no danger of expecting the best out of people; she's more likely to do the opposite and expect the worst of people she's just met.

That is a different way to look ofcourse.I stand by my genius comment.Arya is still a young girl and wasting her kills on those scumbags was a stupid thing but weasel soup is the best thing ever I think you would agree.Like I said Arya and Sansa are in compeletly diffeent situations and they are compeletely different.If you put Arya in court she would try to kill everone every single day because she is a wild child.Arya is ruled by her emotions.And if you put Sansa in the road she would get killed or raped in a seond because she is not ready for that kind of a trip.What I am saying is Arya survived too many things she showed too many potential she learns, she adapts, she survives, she showed a different set of skills then the girl we meet in the AGOT.But Sansa never gets to use new skills because she is still in the same situation she was in since the begining so we don't get to see a different set and we don't get to see an improvement that much.

Arya by nature is distrustful and welcoming in the same time she can be friends with a common girl or a bastard wtihout hesitaiton.Sansa is educated in court life or Lady life, she doesn't knpw how to behave other way but she is learning.

[Ludd]

People need to remember that Sansa and Arya are both LITTLE GIRLS when the story starts and judge them accordingly.

Sansa was a spoiled little rich girl with a head full of songs and myths. She was naive and encouraged to be so I assume by her parents. As a child she was probably the family sneak (Don't tell Sansa!) suggests that she was the sort of little girl that would go primly to mummy and say the boys were throwing mud or water bombing the soldiers or eating the apple pies. Sansa was earnestly trying to be a fine Southern Lady.

Now on the way to KL she DID behave badly over the Micah incident and it showed a disturbing element to he character, but one that is understandable given her age. Ned ably defends her to Arya ie she must get support Joffrey, although I sometimes think Ned was trying to convince himself as much as Arya. So I think Sansa DID show a bit of a black side on that trip but it is NOT enough to condemn her.

More serious for Sansa's character was her going to Cersai with the tale of Ned leaving. At that point she CHOSE Cersai over her father. Once again she was an 11 year old child full of romantic, childish love for Joffrey and CERSAI. At the time she appeared to be playing no speakies with Ned (again fairly normal behavior for a prepubescent 11 year old girl in early teen years), however she did make a conscious selection of Joffrey rather than Ned. In the world of GRRM this seems to be a serious act.

From the time of Ned' execution, Sansa is on a growth arc slowly losing her naivety and growing as a person. Nevertheless she has still been remarkably passive EVEN for a scared 12 year old. She seems not ever to have asked about Jeyne Poole, nor tried to build any friendships or alliances. When she marries Tyrion she is STILL so locked up in her romantic images of a handsome knight, that she fails to see that this is her hope and way out of a ghastly situation. Even at 13 I think Sansa could have grasped that if she slept with Tyrion and perhaps got pregnant, she may get out of KL and to a place of safety. However we see in her reaction to Tyrion the first signs of renewed Starkishness, hating him BECAUSE he was a Lannister. However one rather suspects that if Tyrion was as handsome as Jaime, her Lannister hatred may have been a little more muted.

[Minsc]

When she marries Tyrion she is STILL so locked up in her romantic images of a handsome knight, that she fails to see that this is her hope and way out of a ghastly situation. Even at 13 I think Sansa could have grasped that if she slept with Tyrion and perhaps got pregnant, she may get out of KL and to a place of safety.

Not really, in how her marriage to Tyrion only makes her more stuck with the Lannisters and does nothing to get her out of that situation. Moreover, during that time she has an other plan that actually allows her to escape all of the Lannisters and doesn't require her to sleep with someone that she doesn't desire nor risk the dangers of pregnancy.

Not to mention, as Master of Coins I doubt that Tyrion could just leave King's Landing willy nilly after getting her pregnant along with how the only option to him was either moving to Casterly Rock(which makes her even more surrounded by Lannisters) or fleeing to Essos(which is isn't that preferable situation either).

However one rather suspects that if Tyrion was as handsome as Jaime, her Lannister hatred may have been a little more muted.

You mean like how Lancel looks like Jaime? Yet she still picked Tyrion over Lancel as how though she didn't want either she recognized that Tyrion was the kinder of the two.

nor tried to build any friendships or alliances.

Besides her making some semi-friendships with Sandor, Dontos, and the Tyrells? Moreover, she cannot really make friendships and alliances with she is surrounded by enemies, constantly watched, and has no power to offer anyone. Heck, Cersei even has it so her maids are constantly changed so she cannot get to know any of them thus it is unlikely that she is given free reign to chat up any nobles/knights that might help her on her own.

[grand old duke of stark]

People need to remember that Sansa and Arya are both LITTLE GIRLS when the story starts and judge them accordingly.

Sansa was a spoiled little rich girl with a head full of songs and myths. She was naive and encouraged to be so I assume by her parents. As a child she was probably the family sneak (Don't tell Sansa!) suggests that she was the sort of little girl that would go primly to mummy and say the boys were throwing mud or water bombing the soldiers or eating the apple pies. Sansa was earnestly trying to be a fine Southern Lady.

Now on the way to KL she DID behave badly over the Micah incident and it showed a disturbing element to he character, but one that is understandable given her age. Ned ably defends her to Arya ie she must get support Joffrey, although I sometimes think Ned was trying to convince himself as much as Arya. So I think Sansa DID show a bit of a black side on that trip but it is NOT enough to condemn her.

More serious for Sansa's character was her going to Cersai with the tale of Ned leaving. At that point she CHOSE Cersai over her father. Once again she was an 11 year old child full of romantic, childish love for Joffrey and CERSAI. At the time she appeared to be playing no speakies with Ned (again fairly normal behavior for a prepubescent 11 year old girl in early teen years), however she did make a conscious selection of Joffrey rather than Ned. In the world of GRRM this seems to be a serious act.

From the time of Ned' execution, Sansa is on a growth arc slowly losing her naivety and growing as a person. Nevertheless she has still been remarkably passive EVEN for a scared 12 year old. She seems not ever to have asked about Jeyne Poole, nor tried to build any friendships or alliances. When she marries Tyrion she is STILL so locked up in her romantic images of a handsome knight, that she fails to see that this is her hope and way out of a ghastly situation. Even at 13 I think Sansa could have grasped that if she slept with Tyrion and perhaps got pregnant, she may get out of KL and to a place of safety. However we see in her reaction to Tyrion the first signs of renewed Starkishness, hating him BECAUSE he was a Lannister. However one rather suspects that if Tyrion was as handsome as Jaime, her Lannister hatred may have been a little more muted.

I think this sums up how I feel. FWIW, I've seen comments in other threads that Tywin will dispose of Sansa once she's completed her baby-making. That's a bit harsh--he'd probably let her live as long as she remains a tractable baby-maker. But she's not necessarily safe.

WRT the poster who said that Sansa's problem is that Arya is so fantastic...even a genius. I think Sansa would look passive and weak even if there was no Arya in the story. But Sansa is such a conventional Disney cartoon princess that a creative, subversive author like GRRM was wise to give us a contrast, even if Arya is almost too hyper-active. But Sansa is a Stark and is likely to find her inner wolf. She's been slowly waking up from her dream view of people and society, and one day will become truly perceptive about everyone and everything. If that happens, she will be formidable indeed. But until she defeats LF, she will remain a pawn because he brought her there to use. It's a shame that even after five books we still haven't seen her completely wake up.

[Newstar]

nor tried to build any friendships or alliances.

Besides her making some semi-friendships with Sandor, Dontos, and the Tyrells?

Not great examples. The Hound sought her out...stalked her, pretty much. Dontos sought her out, contacted her on his own initiative and courted her on Littlefinger's orders. The Tyrells also courted Sansa and actively solicited her company, and she went along with it, reluctantly at first. There was no effort on her part involved; quite the opposite, at least where the Hound was concerned. So I think the point that whatever friendships or alliances she built--and the Dontos and Tyrell "friendships" were manifestly false, so I don't know that they count--were not through her own efforts. So your "counterargument" is actually no counterargument at all, since whatever friendship(s) she formed were not through her own efforts. The point that she didn't try to build any friendships or alliances still stands.

Moreover, she cannot really make friendships and alliances with she is surrounded by enemies, constantly watched, and has no power to offer anyone.

Again, saying that she would have failed in forming friendships or that she had good reasons for not trying doesn't negate the fact that she didn't even try in the first place. We'll never really know whether she could have formed friendships and alliances, will we? She never made the attempt, after all. She might have failed, true, but at least she could have tried. She didn't try in the books, which was the point being made.

WRT the poster who said that Sansa's problem is that Arya is so fantastic...even a genius.

Sansa definitely suffers in comparison to Arya. It doesn't help that Arya is acquiring a panoply of useful, transferable skills--multiple languages, lie detection, etc.--while Sansa is keeping house, playing nursemaid to Sweetrobin and getting molested by Littlefinger.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think in general, readers are keen to side with Arya in the whole Arya vs. Sansa debate, because Arya is the wild child, the warrior-type that only truly exists in Fantasy-Books, while Sansa is the most realistic character, the one people have been at some point in their lives. Although It's not that hard to find someone that has been fooled by someone they thought they should trust, (Cersei), It's certainly hard to find a prodigy nine-year old that thinks striking the Crown Prince is a fine attitude and is on her path to become a child assassin at age eleven. Don't get me wrong, I love Arya, and I find the comparison between the two sisters silly, but Sansa is certainly the most real-like character.

That said, Sansa's wrong decisions in AGOT are understandable. Ned doesn't seem to have been educating his daughter to the politics of King's Landing, and he most of the time lets Sansa on her own. She has been taught her whole life from her parents that the Queen is a trustworthy, good person. Sansa thought she would explain the issue and would solve it, not merely trying to cast aside her family, like some posters have said. It's both Ned's and Cat's fault in that matter, that Sansa would be numb to politics and her own position. How life is not a song. We don't have one scene where Ned even says to Sansa to not trust the Queen and the Prince.

The whole "Sansa is weak and passive" really breaks down to what do you consider passive. She plotted to escape King's Landing, but she didn't attacked Joffrey at court, which was a wise action that Arya wouldn't be able to do. I find Arya a lot of things, from brave to active, but she's certainly no genius. A genius would know that certain actions would get him killed, and Arya doesn't grasp that. Sansa's strength is in her resilience, not in her sword abilities. It makes actually sense that she doesn't trust anyone on King's Landing. What friendships she could truly make, when everyone obeys Cersei and her abusive betrothed?

Being pregnant with Tyrion's baby makes nothing to help her. It actually speeds the process of her being taken off the game. In what universe would Tywin just let her leave King's Landing after the baby? Isn't her husband Master of Coin? Also, after Sansa has one or two babies, It's more than likely for her to be taken off the game. Edmure is in a similar position to Sansa, and we know what they plan for him. And, are we actually judging a thirteen-year old, forcibly married to the family that murdered her father, for not sleeping with her husband, when HE is the one that proposes them not sleeping together?

Sansa's journey is certainly "boring" for some people, as she is not tasked with murdering people, she doesn't have dragons, but that doesn't make her a weak, passive, or "not-enough to be a feminist symbol".

[Newstar]

but she didn't attacked Joffrey at court, which was a wise action that Arya wouldn't be able to do

Not so much. Arya learned how to hold her tongue and behave pretty quickly in the books when it meant a beating would be awaiting her if she didn't. And if you can recall, Sansa was happy to mouth off to Joffrey until it earned her a beating and the Hound gave her explicit, painfully obvious advice which she followed (smile and obey), so that's no great testament to Sansa's superiority, just as it's no testament to Dontos' intelligence that he carries out Littlefinger's orders.

A genius would know that certain actions would get him killed, and Arya doesn't grasp that.

And yet the genius Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel when any reasonable person would know that it was suicide, the genius Tyrion mouthed off to Lysa at the Eyrie when he knew he was already in very great danger, the genius Tywin provoked an armed, highly pissed Tyrion when he was helpless to defend himself, etc. etc. Intelligence isn't the same thing as wisdom.

I think in general, readers are keen to side with Arya in the whole Arya vs. Sansa debate, because Arya is the wild child, the warrior-type that only truly exists in Fantasy-Books, while Sansa is the most realistic character, the one people have been at some point in their lives.

Eh, speak for yourself. Of the two sisters, Arya's the one to whom I can relate.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Eh, speak for yourself. Of the two sisters, Arya's the one to whom I can relate.

You are telling me that you can identify with Arya's arc and her eventual role and training as a child-assassin than Sansa's arc about learning that life is not a song and her eventual learning of the game and how things work? Well, I can't argue with that, since I don't know anything about your life, apparently... But although I don't deny that Arya's personality is as any other, her arc is certainly not very... relatable.

[Newstar]

You are telling me that you can identify with Arya's arc and her eventual role and training as a child-assassin than Sansa's arc about learning that life is not a song and her eventual learning of the game and how things work? Well, I can't argue with that, since I don't know anything about your life, apparently... But although I don't deny that Arya's personality is as any other, her arc is certainly not very... relatable.

Well, if you're going to make the argument that Arya's arc isn't relatable because readers haven't ever trained to be child assassins, I could equally say that Sansa's arc couldn't possibly be relatable since readers haven't ever been held as political hostages, almost gang-raped during a riot, forced into marriages, almost murdered by their insane relatives, etc. etc. :D

If you look at Arya's arc more broadly, however, as a girl who's been bullied and mocked because she doesn't fit in, a girl who has no interest in traditional feminine pursuits, a girl who wants to explore rather than stay within the narrow confines of her existence (as a highborn lady), a girl who would rather be a political councillor than a wife and mother, a girl who devalues her own identity because she doesn't conform to the gender norms of her time, a girl who's smart but whose intelligence is overlooked and undervalued, a girl who is determined to thrive in the face of difficulties and who makes her own fate, then I'd say there's a lot that I find relatable there. Personally, at any rate. :D

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Not so much. Arya learned how to hold her tongue and behave pretty quickly in the books when it meant a beating would be awaiting her if she didn't. And if you can recall, Sansa was happy to mouth off to Joffrey until it earned her a beating and the Hound gave her explicit, painfully obvious advice which she followed (smile and obey), so that's no great testament to Sansa's superiority, just as it's no testament to Dontos' intelligence that he carries out Littlefinger's orders.

And yet the genius Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel when any reasonable person would know that it was suicide, the genius Tyrion mouthed off to Lysa at the Eyrie when he knew he was already in very great danger, the genius Tywin provoked an armed, highly pissed Tyrion when he was helpless to defend himself, etc. etc. Intelligence isn't the same thing as wisdom.

None of the people you actually quoted I consider genius. Tywin resorted to violence in every possible way and that got himself killed. Tyrion's smart, but he's no genius. Littlefinger had a great deal of luck and plot armor, as Tyrion knew he was the one that planted the dagger, and he's on a very tenuous position in the Vale as of now. Varys strikes as a genius to me, and guess what: The one bolder move he made (Killing Kevan) will hardly be tracked to him. That's a genius. Also, Littlefinger was young when he asked for a duel with Brandon, and he learned. Arya's still too rash to be considered truly a genius, but she has the potential to be a powerful person, if she can control her wild side.

Do you really think Arya would be able to control herself at court with Joffrey and Cersei? This is coming from the girl that sleeps every night saying their names. I don't think, as much as I love her, Arya would have the ability to not attack Joffrey at the first chance she had. That's the magic about GRRM - He put the girls in different paths that one couldn't really fill for the other. I don't think one bit Sansa would have survived in Arya's place as I don't think Arya would in hers.