Sansa Stark

[Queen Alienor]

No, definitively not. But I think he kind of expected her to do her duty. It's not something I approve, but Westeros is a completly different world. In Westeros, a Lollys Stokeworth (I think that's the name) gets gangraped and everybody laughs about it and more or less puts the blame on her. In Westeros, Cersei Lannister thinks that most Septas probably prayed for a good rape. I don't think that's good, really not, but we can't think the characters in Westeros will applie our moral standards.

[jon stark I]

Well you can't talk about sexual abuse in a country where your wife gets undressed while they carry her to the bedding.

[Queen Alienor]

Exactly my point

[Winter's Knight]

Yes, you can. In fact characters do: Cersei hides the worst of Robert's abuse from Jaime because she's afraid he'll kill him if he found out, Jaime protests against Aerys' treatment of Rhaelia, Viserys is surprised that Drogo'd be interested in so young a girl,even Tywin thinks that Tyrion need only consumate his marriage, rather than get to baby-making.

Furhermore, Tyrion-who is the only PoV we see actually commit rape-cannot, in good conscience, force himself on Sansa.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Seriously?

Arya attacked Joffrey to protect Mycah, not thinking about the fact that hitting a crown prince is something that can't end well in the society she lived in. Arya could have gotten herself discovered and caught during Ned's execution, if Yoren hadn't been there to save her ("You're not a very smart boy, is that what you're saying?"). Arya impulsively wasted her two Jaqen kills on completely unimportant people - Gregotr's man Chiswyck, because she was disgusted by his story about gang rape Gregor and his men committed, and the bragging way he told it (and I found it understandable at the time, but it's hardly a mark of genius! Couldn't she at least have asked him to kill Gregor?), and Weese, who was personally mistreating her at the time. Arya ran into the Twins with the crazy idea that she, a tiny little girl with a few months worth of swords training, could save her mother from a whole bunch of armed men within the castle, and would've gotten herself killed, if it hadn't been for Sandor and his ax. Arya is brave, determined, energetic, proactive and doesn't give up, but a wise planner she sure ain't. And so far she hasn't actually managed to achieve anything except survive, save 3-5 people (two of which are Rorge and Biter, not a gain for the world at large), kill a few minor assholes in Lannister service, and help give Harenthal to the Bloody Mummers and Roose Bolton, which proved not to change anything in the big picture.

Mind you, it's not that surviving on the road for so long is not an incredible feat. But it's not like it amounts to much more than what Sansa has been doing - also surviving.

And what plots against her family did Arya uncover? The closest she came to it was accidentally overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio, but she couldn't even retell it well to Ned, so he didn't understand a thing of what she was saying. She was smart enough to realize Roose wasn't to be trusted, but it's not like she was able to do anything about it.

I'm not sure about "Arya discovering people's intentions the moment she meets them". Most of the time she just seems distrustful of everyone and assuming the worst. Granted, that often proves to be a good thing, since many aren't to be trusted, like Roose. But she sure didn't realize what Yoren's intentions were when he caught her in KL. Besides, most people she meets on the road are not going to try to be courteous and pretend to be nice, like people at court do. It's not like you needed to be a genius to know what Rorge would like to do to you, when he's telling it you to your face.

Also, if you're referring to Joffrey, Arya did not know Joffrey was a jerk the moment she met him. She knew it when Jon told her he was a little shit, after seeing the way he talked to the boys while they were playing at swords. If anyone was showing himself to be a good judge of character there, it was Jon. Not that it was hard to see Joffrey was a jerk when you witnessed him behaving like that - unless you were blinding yourself out of infatuation and a desire to see him in a certain way, like Sansa did. Arya was not infatuated, she does not get infatuated and she is no danger of expecting the best out of people; she's more likely to do the opposite and expect the worst of people she's just met.

Sure, let's just bash Arya because somebody's opinion doesn't agree with you. Honestly, just because you people don't like her, you guys decide that the only way you can make Sansa look good is to make arya look stupid? That just demeans your argument. This is why I don't like Sansa threads despite really liking her- it always has some brilliant posters who think degrading Arya makes their case :rolleyes:

And as for not "achieving anything except to survive"? Really? Using your logic then, none of the kids and teenagers have "done anything" except for robb, jon and dany. Arya's grown, she like your precious Sansa, is learning what the world is really like. She's understood that giving fealty does not mean giving loyalty. That just because the person is your friend, doesn't mean they'll always be there for you. So, yes, the poor child has had her innocence ripped of in the most heartbreaking ways and that means she will be suspicious. She's learnt how to control her toungue, to stand utterly still while a frey just throws out the news of your brothers' deaths so causally. She's been beaten bloody too, almost molested, witnessed rape a thousands of times and she still going strong. And add that to being so starved that the best time in THOBAW is dinner time.So I'm sorry if that's nothing to you, but I call it pretty damn impressive.

And as for her so called stupidity, well, you think that trying to save your father, your mother and brother is stupid, I really don't know what to say. I agree, not her most intelligent move, but for God's sake what do you want her to do? She's a passionate, caring girl and she protects her friends. It's this instinct that makes her take care of Weasal, lommy and hot pie when the smarter thing would be to leave them, to go after gendry, to save jaquen, to give those suffering men a drink even when she hates them. The same quality that makes Sansa so lovable is called stupidy when it's in arya? I find that utterly ridiculous.

Ok, I'm reallt sorry about the arya rant in a Sansa thread but I thought that the accusations were unfair.

[Queen Alienor]

I really hate it when people feel the need to play down either Sansa or Arya to make the other likeable. They are two very different characters and they are both awesome. I honestly don't think one of them is "better" than the other. I just wish people would realize that.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I really hate it when people feel the need to play down either Sansa or Arya to make the other likeable. They are two very different characters and they are both awesome. I honestly don't think one of them is "better" than the other. I just wish people would realize that.

Was that directed at me? I happen to totally agree with your sentiment and I seriously hope it didn't come out wrong. I was just trying to defend arya.

[Annara Snow]

Sure, let's just bash Arya because somebody's opinion doesn't agree with you. Honestly, just because you people don't like her, you guys decide that the only way you can make Sansa look good is to make arya look stupid? That just demeans your argument. This is why I don't like Sansa threads despite really liking her- it always has some brilliant posters who think degrading Arya makes their case :rolleyes:

And as for not "achieving anything except to survive"? Really? Using your logic then, none of the kids and teenagers have "done anything" except for robb, jon and dany. Arya's grown, she like your precious Sansa, is learning what the world is really like. She's understood that giving fealty does not mean giving loyalty. That just because the person is your friend, doesn't mean they'll always be there for you. So, yes, the poor child has had her innocence ripped of in the most heartbreaking ways and that means she will be suspicious. She's learnt how to control her toungue, to stand utterly still while a frey just throws out the news of your brothers' deaths so causally. She's been beaten bloody too, almost molested, witnessed rape a thousands of times and she still going strong. And add that to being so starved that the best time in THOBAW is dinner time.So I'm sorry if that's nothing to you, but I call it pretty damn impressive.

And as for her so called stupidity, well, you think that trying to save your father, your mother and brother is stupid, I really don't know what to say. I agree, not her most intelligent move, but for God's sake what do you want her to do? She's a passionate, caring girl and she protects her friends. It's this instinct that makes her take care of Weasal, lommy and hot pie when the smarter thing would be to leave them, to go after gendry, to save jaquen, to give those suffering men a drink even when she hates them. The same quality that makes Sansa so lovable is called stupidy when it's in arya? I find that utterly ridiculous.

Ok, I'm reallt sorry about the arya rant in a Sansa thread but I thought that the accusations were unfair

What accusations? LOL I was "bashing" Arya by pointing out that she is not a genius, like another poster claimed? Jesus, really? :bang: This is really silly. Arya is one of my favorite characters, as a matter of fact. I like her and Sansa about the same. If you like Arya because you believe that she is a 'genius' who's never wrong and has no flaws, and see it as "bashing" when someone points out that she's an impulsive child who often leaps before she looks, rather than some sort of superhuman and incredibly wise planner, and if you think it's bashing to point out the things she did textually, then maybe you don't actually like her, the way she actually is in the books?

What do I want her to do? What the heck are you talking about? I'm not the one who wants her to be a 'genius', some sort of a ridiculous, unrealistic Mary Sue type character.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

And as for not "achieving anything except to survive"? Really? Using your logic then, none of the kids and teenagers have "done anything" except for robb, jon and dany.

And they haven't. So what? That's not my logic, that's a fact. A character, especially a child who's still developing and whose arc is nowhere near finished, doesn't have to be 'uncovering plots about their families' and doing superhero feats to save the kingdom, or whatever the previous poster imagined Arya doing, to be an interesting and compelling.

[Woman of War]

At what point did Westeros become 'your country' exactly?

i think you misunderstood my post somehow. I was arguing against down playing Sandor's assault on Sansa by arguing that it .....was love and then it can't be violence..... Soo incredibly naive.

I think this is a misunderstanding.

[Annara Snow]

I hope, Annara, that you are aware that sexual abuse does not need physical violence, a person can be victim of rape or abuse even if he or she has not been harmed visibly.

Of course we all know that all those laws of our world find no application in Martinworld but what do you think a RL jury would do to a man who has a knife at a child's throat after having thrown her on her bed? Prison, I guess.

Just like Tyrion touching Sansa's breast was inacceptable even if no weapon was involved and he did not harm her. Do you really think that it's only sexual abuse if the assaulted person "fights back"? Not in my country anymore.

Who said anything about sexual abuse or emotional abuse? Or psychological harm? Or that it wouldn't be punishable, or that it didn't constitute an attack or that it wasn't a terrible thing to do? Don't you understand the meaning of the term "physical harm"? Putting a knife to one's throat, or a gun to one's head, would be considered a threat of grievous bodily harm.

No, Tyrion didn't cause physical harm to Sansa, either. Are you going to argue he did? Psychologically, yes - it was a traumatic situation, and so was Sandor putting a knife to her throat.

And yet, Sansa thinks later that Tyrion was "kind", which suggests that she still appreciates the fact he didn't go through with it. We may say that he wasn't kind since he intended to rape her, but Sansa apparently puts a lot of stock in the difference between "was going to do it" and "actually did it". Based on that, she may not agree that she was a bad judge of character when she thought the Hound wouldn't hurt her. Was she right or wrong, and is she right or wrong to think Tyrion was kind - well, it's not as cut and dry as, say, the correctness of her initial impressions of Joffrey.

i'm really sick and tired of people choosing to blatantly misread my posts and put words in my mouth. There's been too much of that in this thread.

[Annara Snow]

even Tywin thinks that Tyrion need only consumate his marriage, rather than get to baby-making.

Tywin is an incredible hypocrite. "It's perfectly fine to rape her as long as you do it just once". And later after the RW he does tell Tyrion to get to the baby-making as soon as possible.

[Winter's Knight]

Tywin is an incredible hypocrite. "It's perfectly fine to rape her as long as you do it just once". And later after the RW he does tell Tyrion to get to the baby-making as soon as possible.

Of course he does-I forgot that part. Sorry.

[Newstar]

I actually think the last poster DID speak for herself. She just said that SHE found Arya to be like a fantasy character, SHE could not imagine a 9-year-old girl like her, and that SHE could not identify with her as much as she could with Sansa.

Yeah, on reread, the poster to whom I was responding did qualify his/her responses, so that's true.

It's fine if you personally happen to find Arya's personality more likable than Sansa's, but it's also ok for others to feel the opposite way and feel more connected to the latter; there's no loss/shame/misfortune in that IMO.

If one thinks that Arya is "unrealistic," because one couldn't imagine a nine-year-old girl being that awesome, then yeah, I think not having the privilege of knowing any similarly awesome nine-year-olds is a bit unfortunate. My point was that Arya is only "unrealistic" if you don't know any girls like her at that age in real life, and I knew several, so I have trouble seeing her as unrealistic. Not that I see Sansa as unrealistic, mind you.

And plus, I dont see what's wrong with being "traditionally feminine" even nowadays. To me that term means a kind, gentle heart, loving and nurturing nature, grace, sophistication, empathy, innocence, and a lot more. While you may value qualities like "being fierce, tough, bold, sharp, etc." more, having the above "traditional feminine" characteristics doesnt necessarily make someone a dull, weak, mannered, and brainless pink-and-sugar,disney-princess type of person. No offense but that's just stereotypical...

Hey, Sansa types exist in real life, too, just as Arya types do, and I've known a few (even though I wasn't friends with them by and large); it's just that I find the latter far more relatable than the former, for reasons I explained. Of course, it kind of amuses me that so many posters honestly believe Sansa's going to accomplish Great Things, since in my (admittedly limited and purely anecdotal) experience, the real-life Sansas never really accomplish anything of note beyond marriage and motherhood. Something about that personality type seems to preclude greatness.

But I definitely agree with you that Arya DOES NOT = the rage machine, and Sansa DOES NOT = the perfect angel of self control. They both had to learn this in their own way.

Yes! Thank you! Can we let the idea that Arya and Sansa would have perished if they'd been in the other's position die already?

[Gwydden]

I can empathise with your feelings, and you make a good point. But if you think Arya is "...a walking stereotype barely fleshed out", you haven't been paying attention to decades of movies from Disney, Pixar, and Hollywood in general. Until Mulan in 1998 and Brave in 2012, neither Disney nor Pixar gave girls a female protagonist who wasn't literally or figuratively the princess or girlfriend stereotype. Perhaps GRRM made Arya a bit too assertive, brave, loyal, pugilistic, etc. to be totally believable, but she's no stereotype.

I did specify "in my most bitter days" xD. But I do stand by my belief that she represents an obvius trope. She's a classic tomboy/rebellious-female-in-patriarchal-world. That's not a bad thing on itself really, since tropes are unavoidable and therefore, subverting seems like a much smarter path. But it's a big part of what makes me think she's the one we're supposed to like, while Sansa is there so we can hate her.

[Shebara]

None of the people you actually quoted I consider genius. Tywin resorted to violence in every possible way and that got himself killed. Tyrion's smart, but he's no genius. Littlefinger had a great deal of luck and plot armor, as Tyrion knew he was the one that planted the dagger, and he's on a very tenuous position in the Vale as of now. Varys strikes as a genius to me, and guess what: The one bolder move he made (Killing Kevan) will hardly be tracked to him. That's a genius. Also, Littlefinger was young when he asked for a duel with Brandon, and he learned. Arya's still too rash to be considered truly a genius, but she has the potential to be a powerful person, if she can control her wild side.

Do you really think Arya would be able to control herself at court with Joffrey and Cersei? This is coming from the girl that sleeps every night saying their names. I don't think, as much as I love her, Arya would have the ability to not attack Joffrey at the first chance she had. That's the magic about GRRM - He put the girls in different paths that one couldn't really fill for the other. I don't think one bit Sansa would have survived in Arya's place as I don't think Arya would in hers.

I think Arya would soon have found a way to run (or to kill Joffrey with the pointy end)

Sansa stays in her place caught like a little bird in her cage while I think Arya would have run...like she did in fact. Cant imagine Sansa killing and eating doves (and worse if needed).

[Winter's Knight]

See, I think Arya is a child soldier-type character on a Break the Cutie arc, like the other Stark kids.

[Newstar]

I think Arya would soon have found a way to run (or to kill Joffrey with the pointy end)

Sansa stays in her place caught like a little bird in her cage while I think Arya would have run...like she did in fact. Cant imagine Sansa killing and eating doves (and worse if needed).

I don't know about that. Sansa at her core is a survivor. I think she would have done whatever she needed to do to live, including killing and eating doves and rats. It's never come to that for her, at least not yet.

See, I think Arya is a child soldier-type character on a Break the Cutie arc, like the other Stark kids.

Didn't GRRM draw the comparison between Arya and child soldiers? That seems to be what he's trying to do with the character (as opposed to the "Arya is a psychopath" theory).

...The TV Tropes page for Break the Cutie actually mentions that Sansa's a better fit for the Break the Cutie trope, since Arya was always fiery and sharp to begin with, as opposed to Sansa's innocence and naivete.

[Winter's Knight]

I think Arya would soon have found a way to run (or to kill Joffrey with the pointy end)

Sansa stays in her place caught like a little bird in her cage while I think Arya would have run...like she did in fact. Cant imagine Sansa killing and eating doves (and worse if needed).

How? Arya escaped because Syrio held off a KG knight and guards for her-if she had bee alone, she could not have escaped. If she had been captured like Sansa, she'd have been watched day and knight, like her sister-do you really believe she'd have been able to sneak around?

[Gwydden]

If one thinks that Arya is "unrealistic," because one couldn't imagine a nine-year-old girl being that awesome, then yeah, I think not having the privilege of knowing any similarly awesome nine-year-olds is a bit unfortunate. My point was that Arya is only "unrealistic" if you don't know any girls like her at that age in real life, and I knew several, so I have trouble seeing her as unrealistic. Not that I see Sansa as unrealistic, mind you.

Hey, Sansa types exist in real life, too, just as Arya types do, and I've known a few (even though I wasn't friends with them by and large); it's just that I find the latter far more relatable than the former, for reasons I explained. Of course, it kind of amuses me that so many posters honestly believe Sansa's going to accomplish Great Things, since in my (admittedly limited and purely anecdotal) experience, the real-life Sansas never really accomplish anything of note beyond marriage and motherhood. Something about that personality type seems to preclude greatness.

I am curious. I don't believe Arya's "awesome" in any way. Impulsive and lacking in empathy, yes. Of course it would be foolish to expect otherwise from a child in her situation, but then, I dislike children in general, and the ones I've met are the sort that I'd like to kick in the jaw. So I'd like to know where the hell have you met all these young prodigies, and I am not being mocking or sarcastic at all.

Also, to the second paragraph, that's a big generalisation, and I am not sure what do you mean by Sansa's types. Not to mention Sansa's situation it's hardly normal.

[Annara Snow]

I think in general, readers are keen to side with Arya in the whole Arya vs. Sansa debate, because Arya is the wild child, the warrior-type that only truly exists in Fantasy-Books, while Sansa is the most realistic character, the one people have been at some point in their lives. Although It's not that hard to find someone that has been fooled by someone they thought they should trust, (Cersei), It's certainly hard to find a prodigy nine-year old that thinks striking the Crown Prince is a fine attitude and is on her path to become a child assassin at age eleven. Don't get me wrong, I love Arya, and I find the comparison between the two sisters silly, but Sansa is certainly the most real-like character.

I disagree. I think both girls are real-life like characters. True, none of us has lived through the things Arya has, but neither did we live through the things Sansa has, since we live in a different kind of society. But I think people can still easily relate to either or both of them.

I don't see Arya as the typical warrior-girl from fantasy books any more than I see Sansa as a Disney princess. There's nothing glamorous about Arya;s arc, she's not a superhero-type character who can do anything and beat anyone all along with her sword and achieve all her goals - although I get the impression that a lot of fans would like to see her as this kind of character. I find her actually pretty easy to relate to. In the first book, I related to her a lot more than Sansa; later on I started finding Sansa more relatable, so I can relate to them both. If I were in the middle of the Mycah incident, I would behave exactly like Arya - even though I am aware it's not a wise course of action by any means. I doubt that any of us here have been child soldiers (though there are people in real life who have/are!), but many can probably relate to a girl who is rebellious, doesn't fit with their assigned role in society and with traditional gender roles, feels both angry and insecure because of it. Or with someone who is full of anger because of the injustice they witnessed and losses they've suffered, and wants to take up action and fight, but comes to find out that they are, realistically, pretty helpless on their own in the face of the numerous and strong bad guys. For instance, I can relate easily to Arya's anger and impulsiveness - there have been many times when I've been overcome with anger at some perceived injustice and done something impulsive and burned my bridges, and I was often aware even while I was doing that it wasn't the wise thing to do, but I couldn't help it. And then other times I was aware I had to control myself, even if it made me feel 'like a mouse'.