Stannis's huge victory at the wall.

[A Duke]

Which is exacly how Stannis planned it. This is the whole point why he used the Eastwatch men, instead of attacking right off the bat.

How have the eastwatch men caused the disorder and slow responce, which continued throughout the whole battle? The causes are clear:

1. Element of surprise. relied heavily on no wildling scouts all the way from East watch to castle black, so it's a great gamble that could have easily failed.

2. The disordered sprowling wildling camp which was mixed with the civilian camp.

3. The lacking dicipline and military training (fighting as an army not as a dozen men band) of the wildling.

4. Lack of a proper chain of command, due to wildling nature and arguable Mance's failure.

Of the above on the first one was somehow in Stannis's control. And that too only slightly relying more on chance than anything else.

What won the battle was the charge of heavy horse, which was a good strategy, but not anything special.

[Nyrhex]

How have the eastwatch men caused the disorder and slow responce, which continued throughout the whole battle? The causes are clear:

1. Element of surprise. relied heavily on no wildling scouts all the way from East watch to castle black, so it's a great gamble that should have failed.

2. The disordered sprowling wildling camp which was mixed with the civilian camp.

3. The lacking dicipline and military training (fighting as an army not as a dozen men band) of the wildling.

4. Lack of a proper chain of command, due to wildling nature and arguable Mance's failure.

Of the above on the first one was somehow in Stannis's control. And that too only slightly relying more on chance than anything else.

What won the battle was the charge of heavy horse, which was a good strategy, but not anything special.

Have we been reading about the same battle?

I already posted the depiction of the battle with highlighted importent bits. The Eastwatch men attacked from the east so that the orders are to face east, and while they are re-positioning to face east, the real attack comes from the north-north east. Instead every man in the wildling camp doing a 180 in his spot, they need to change the entire formation in the least efficient way.

1. Already posted the part where the scout comes too late. Mance learns of the Estwatch men first, and reacts to them.

2. They are disorgenised because the Estwatch men attacked thier camp, and archers were sending fire arrows to spread more chaos.

3. Tormund orgenises a triple line of spears. Hardly fighting in the wildling way. Harma leads a mounted counter attack.

4. There is a clear chjain of command. Mance at the top, with Tormund, Harma, on his flanks.

Stannis sent the Estwatch men first for the scouts to pick up on. If they hadn't, they blew a freaking warhorn before attacking.

The disorder is caused by the attack of the Eastwatch men on the wildling camp, and archers sending fire arrows.

The lack of dicipline does not play as an important role as the fient and secondary mounted attack.

The chain of command breaks after Harma is slain on her flank, and Mance falls after his mare is impaled by a lance.

This is due to Stannis' actions, not an inherent incompetence of the wildlings.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

1. we have yet to receive a post battle recount that included the number of horses lost...I don't know why this would be any different.

2. It's clearly stated in the passage in your own post that the Mammoths scared, scattered, and smashed the center column. I assume in the chaos the Giants and Mammoths trampled more than a few of Stannis' horse.

The giants were climbing onto their mammoths, though, and the knights on their barded horses did not like

that at all; he could see how the coursers and destriers screamed and scattered at the sight of those lumbering mountains...

...The mammoths had shattered the center column, but the other two were closing like pincers.(15)...

...He saw a mammoth pluck a knight from his saddle and fling him forty feet with a flick of its trunk...

3. In the passage you posted Jon describes a mounted force, even the bowmen are mounted.

4. I don't think it's controversial to suggest the number of horse post battle is likely to be less than before the battle.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Bridge of skulls!!!!! I cant belive all of you are missing it in all your big (and good) posts!!!

By the way, about your disc about horses numbers; Remember many knights ride two. One for the fight and one for transportation....so any number of horses given at that far point doesnt really show anything.

[Nyrhex]

1. we have yet to receive a post battle recount that included the number of horses lost...I don't know why this would be any different.

2. It's clearly stated in the passage in your own post that the Mammoths scared, scattered, and smashed the center column. I assume in the chaos the Giants and Mammoths trampled more than a few of Stannis' horse.

3. In the passage you posted Jon describes a mounted force, even the bowmen are mounted.

4. I don't think it's controversial to suggest the number of horse post battle is likely to be less than before the battle.

I didn't say it's controversial. Some definatly died. It's just that it's a little hard to picture how ~500 horses can die between what was depicted as a battle with few casualties for Stannis, and Deepwood Mott, and no one would mention how they lost such a considerable amount of horses. That is even when we are not counting any of the horses that might have come with the Mormonts, Glovers, or the survivors of the battle of Winterfell, that had joined Stannis at Deepwood.

It is never stated that all of Stannis' force is mounted.

[The Witch King of Braavos]

Agreed. The Wildlings lacked technology and their discipline was not the same as a Seven Kingdoms army. But they weren't exactly a rabble of peasants. They were brave men and women used to harsh environments and conflicts between one another. Mance rallies his cavalry quite quickly and we see other Wildlings forming spear walls. There were of course the Giants and the Mammoths as well. And off course having roughly 20x times Stannis' number. The victory is a credit to Stannis. He landed an army at Eastwatch and forced marched them quickly enough to take Mance by surprise. He then used Eastwatch Rangers to draw the Wildlings into his trap, where he used the three columns of heavy horse to smash them, while his infantry followed behind.

Well said, definitely one of the most underrated moments of ASOIAF, but not up there with Fair Isle in terms of greatness. The fact is, the 20k wildling fighters were all experienced and were all capable. The surprise attack, Hammer and Anvil tactic just goes to further show how well carried out the attack was.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I quoted loads of posts, including E-Ro's analysis of the battle to agree. However, it occurs to me that arguing against Stannis's tactical ability is like saying Christiano Ronaldo isn't good at football, or Lennox Lewis wasn't a good fighter. There is a reason why everybody shits themselves when they know Stannis is coming for them, from Tywin to all the smug pricks in Winterfell, even though he has the smallest army in the books, seriously, the Holy Hundred give him a run for his money.

It was an incredibly well thought out battle plan, executed to perfection, using his strengths and exploiting the weakness of the enemy (if Robb Stark had done it ya'll would be drooling). Another case in point, if the Pink Letter is true then Stannis managed to hold a superior foe for SEVEN days, if he wins, then maybe it can be accepted that he is actually the dogs bollocks.

The most interesting thing about it is that Stannis is the hammer, when the man is born to play the less glamorous and harder role of the anvil. Not to mention that he got his men to attack in the first place, now THAT is a commander. Someone says to me, "right, they have 20 times our numbers, oh, and cannibals, oh and Giants, oh and Mammoths, I want to attack them." My reaction, "fuck right off, pal!"

You think it was a coincidence Harma's head ended up on a pole? Stannis likes dogs. Nothing is left to chance.

[Draco_Dracul]

A fighter and a soldier are two very different the things, the wildlings have plenty of the former, but Mance may well be the only of the latter among them.

[A Duke]

Wow.

So in 5 minutes the whole host of 10k men not just had the time to stop whetever they were doing, take up their weapons, get to the east of the camps, which probably spraweled for a few km, but also had the time to recieve orders and form up in position?

Yeah I guess we were reading different battles.

They never had the time to form up, they never had the time to make a concentrated fighting force. Only the few raider fighting groups that were ready at hand had time to really respond, and that is why they are the only one's who got orders:

Harma, mount up your raiders. Tormund, find your sons and give me a triple line of spears.

The rest? The camp was spraqling and in disarray, plus the lack of order and disipline? they never assembled in time into a cohesive force.

They are disorgenised because the Estwatch men attacked thier camp, and archers were sending fire arrows to spread more chaos.

Actually a small part of the camp being under direct fire should not be a great cause of disorganization since troops are trained to deal with exactly that. Oh wait...

3. Tormund orgenises a triple line of spears. Hardly fighting in the wildling way. Harma leads a mounted counter attack.

Exactly.

4. There is a clear chjain of command. Mance at the top, with Tormund, Harma, on his flanks.

heh heh, a half dozen guys are the chain of command of a 10,000 army? and 90,000 civilians to boot. please...

here is an example of a roman organization:

http://s_van_dorst.tripod.com/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/hierarchy.html

Stannis sent the Estwatch men first for the scouts to pick up on. If they hadn't, they blew a freaking warhorn before attacking.

I was reffering to the fact that Stannis marched from eastwatch all the way to castle black without being spotted. To assume no wildling for half the legth of the wall is pretty absurd. especially that we hear that Mance sent forces to draw rangers away from castle black.

The chain of command breaks after Harma is slain on her flank, and Mance falls after his mare is impaled by a lance.

The chain of command breaks after 2 people die. Yeah, they sure did have a great chain of command.

Not to mention the fact that the camp was across a few square km so most shouldn't even heard of this at the time.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

if you've lost 500 horse that's only a few casualties, hardly worth mention if you smashed 20k.

[houseHB]

The great ones will always have haters... It is known!

[The Witch King of Braavos]

The great ones will always have haters... It is known!

It is known

[Jasta11]

It was a victory, sure, but Stannis had the advantage of timing, coming just as the host was resting from the assault on the Watch. Plus, if there's one thing Mance never expected, it's an army of mounted knights to suddendly crash into his flank. Not to remove anything from the Mannis, he's as badass as it gets, but it's just a reversal of what happened to him at King's Landing; a completely out of context relief force coming just at the right time. At least in that case we were warned ahead that Stannis was coming, so it's nowhere near as bad as the teleporting Tyrell and Lannister armies at the Blackwater.

I also think the biggest credit goes to the Watch for holding out despite grim odds. Special mentions go to Jon for rallying a bunch of boys and turning them into effective fighters, and to Donal Noyce for leading the charge and dying in the most badass way possible, by fighting the King of Giants under a 700 feet wall of ice in a grand battle for the survival of civilizations.

But yeah, saying it was a simple affair is disingenuous. Stannis and co. saw an opportunity and made the best of it, quite skillfully.

[A Duke]

I am not a Stannis hater, he is one of the characters I appreciate most in those books. It was a solid well executed victory, one should not go belittling this.

But yeah, saying it was a simple affair is disingenuous. Stannis and co. saw an opportunity and made the best of it, quite skillfully.

Stannis was already commited by the time he was anywhere near castle black. When Stannis set out from Eastwatch he had no way of knowing the composition and the way the wildlings were arrayed. He had no way of knowing how might that change in the time it will take him to get there either.

He set out not because he had an assured victory on his hands, but becuase defending the kingdom is what the king supposed to do. That's part of the reason I like him.

[Brienne for Queen]

I am not a Stannis hater, he is one of the characters I appreciate most in those books. It was a solid well executed victory, one should not go belittling this.

Stannis was already commited by the time he was anywhere near castle black. When Stannis set out from Eastwatch he had no way of knowing the composition and the way the wildlings were arrayed. He had no way of knowing how might that change in the time it will take him to get there either.

He set out not because he had an assured victory on his hands, but becuase defending the kingdom is what the king supposed to do. That's part of the reason I like him.

BRAVO!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Nyrhex]

Wow.

So in 5 minutes the whole host of 10k men not just had the time to stop whetever they were doing, take up their weapons, get to the east of the camps, which probably spraweled for a few km, but also had the time to recieve orders and form up in position?

Yeah I guess we were reading different battles.

They never had the time to form up, they never had the time to make a concentrated fighting force. Only the few raider fighting groups that were ready at hand had time to really respond, and that is why they are the only one's who got orders:

The rest? The camp was spraqling and in disarray, plus the lack of order and disipline? they never assembled in time into a cohesive force.

Actually a small part of the camp being under direct fire should not be a great cause of disorganization since troops are trained to deal with exactly that. Oh wait...

Exactly.

heh heh, a half dozen guys are the chain of command of a 10,000 army? and 90,000 civilians to boot. please...

here is an example of a roman organization:

http://s_van_dorst.tripod.com/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/hierarchy.html

I was reffering to the fact that Stannis marched from eastwatch all the way to castle black without being spotted. To assume no wildling for half the legth of the wall is pretty absurd. especially that we hear that Mance sent forces to draw rangers away from castle black.

The chain of command breaks after 2 people die. Yeah, they sure did have a great chain of command.

Not to mention the fact that the camp was across a few square km so most shouldn't even heard of this at the time.

1. Reading a chapter in 5 minutes does not mean the events took five minutes.

2. They never had the time to form up because the front changed twice, and then the enemy changed as well.

3. A small part, which started a movement of most of the civilian population into the way of the fighters.

4. Exactly what? That the wildlings are not braindead orcs and can form a spearwall, not just run with an axe in the air at the enemy, screaming like idiots?

5. Named characters are usually higher ups. Serjeants and lower level commanders are rarely named.

6. Mance sent Rattleshirt to Eastwatch. Remind me, where is Rattleshirt at the time?

7. Mance is thier king. Nearly every plan against the Wildlings included him dead. Mormont and Smallwood's suicide decapitation strike, Thorne and Slynt's assasination via double agent. It's a symbole, and the only thing keeping the wildlings cohesive. Mance's center crumbles after they see his unique winhed helmet fall when his mare goes down. Harma's flank suffers the same when her head is ironically displayed on a pole. Tormund's flank is shattered. All quite visible pretty much for most of the fighting wildlings.

if you've lost 500 horse that's only a few casualties, hardly worth mention if you smashed 20k.

It kinda is a big deal. It turns the battle from smashing the wildlings, to smashing the wildlings at the expense of nearly half the army. No way 500 horses are killed without a significent number of men with them, and we don't have that. There realy is no indication of any considerable loss of men or horses on Stannis' side in this battle, so I am trying to figure out why you claim it could have happened, simply because it is possible that it did. Massey might have been sent to gather sellswords at late AGOT for Stannis. We don't know where he was at the time, and then he is picked to gather sellswords. Could it have happened? Sure. But there is nothing to point to it.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

This isn't wild speculation on my part, the text you've posted is pretty clear: stannis' forces are described by Jon as mounted, even the bownmen are mounted, which isn't very common in westeros and third of his force is described as being smashed by the mammoths. The number of horses at the start of the march on winterfell is not representative of the number used to attack the free folk because a battle was fought in between.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

This isn't wild speculation on my part, the text you've posted is pretty clear: stannis' forces are described by Jon as mounted, even the bownmen are mounted, which isn't very common in westeros and third of his force is described as being smashed by the mammoths. The number of horses at the start of the march on winterfell is not representative of the number used to attack the free folk because a battle was fought in between.

Nope. Jon describes "not only knights now but freeriders and mounted bowmen and men-at-arms in jacks and kettle helms" The first three are described as mounted, but not the men-at-arms. And judging from their equipment, they shouldn't be. It's infantry equipment.

[Nyrhex]

This isn't wild speculation on my part, the text you've posted is pretty clear: stannis' forces are described by Jon as mounted, even the bownmen are mounted, which isn't very common in westeros and third of his force is described as being smashed by the mammoths. The number of horses at the start of the march on winterfell is not representative of the number used to attack the free folk because a battle was fought in between.

It kind of is. The mammoths did not smash a third of Stannis' force, and "smash" does not mean kill. Of the heavy cavalry, Stannis made three columns, and a reserve under his personal command. The central column was stopped by the mammoths - The horses don't like the smell, and there are half a dozen bowmen on each. "Smash" here means stop, as up until now the cavalry moved forward in an ever-advancing wave. If they lost 500 cavalry someone would point it out. Instead Massey mentiones how they went through the wildlings like nothing. Losing between a third and half your horses is not "like nothing".

Up to the march, and the "cold count", there is no significent loss of life on Stannis' side since the Blackwater. The number 800 is near enough to what Stannis had at the battle for the Wall.

Regarding the mounted bowmen - That is another point why it is less likely that so many horses were lost to the mammoths:

1. They are not that uncommon in Westeros. Robb had them. Tywin had them. Renly had them. Those are not Mongol horse archers, they dismount before combat.

2. Stannis used his archers to set the wildling camp afire, then sent them to join the battle as light cavalry, not as horse archers. "Mounted" as in "mounted infantry". They have a horse to move faster from one spot to another.

3. They are mentioned after the central column was smashed by the mammoths. They were not a part of it. If the rest of Stannis unmounted force joined the fight, it should be around the time Jon went inside the tent. No reason to bring ~500 infantry to a fight with ~20,000 before they are running. Better use all of your horses first to break the enemy.

[maarsen]

Every commander who has won a battle, has people saying it was luck. Every time that same commander loses a battle, well that was because he wasn't any good. Napoleon once said that he would rather have a lucky general than a good general. Stannis used what he had to good effect, and is a "lucky" general. Roose Bolton's head and Ramsay's too, will be on pikes soon enough.