Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

MizasterJ

Your interpretation of Jaime's refusal

Recommended Posts

Just finished reading Feast. Wow!



1st off Winter is practically here.



2nd and most importantly Jaime burned Cersei's letter. Whoa



I was wondering if anything else could have caused him to react so ill besides his bitterness towards her,



Of corse they have been drifting a part ever since he returned to KL and he just heard Lancel's confession so of corse he feels resentment, but I can't help inquiring if there just might be something else spurring him to completely disregard her for probably the 1st time in his life.



I think it's worth noting that GRRM didn't share with us Jaime's thoughts on this. Maybe Jaime had an ulterior motive or commitment to something else or do you think it was Cersei's tone in the letter, like the boy who cried wold too many times?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We didn't need to know his thoughts at that exact moment, we had been following his thoughts about Cersei throughout two books and we saw that their relationship and his feelings for her were dramatically deteriorating. ( Which was probably made easier by the fact that there was another woman he had started to develop affection for - Brienne - even though he's not fully aware of it yet; Jaime is someone for whom love is incredibly important - I'm not sure he would've been able to let go off his love for Cersei if there hadn't been another woman he could start replacing her with in his heart.)



He was very disillusioned with Cersei and had come to see her as a lying, cheating, manipulative and selfish woman ("queen of whores" as he would put it) who had used him whenever she needed him, but had treated him badly when he returned changed and maimed (but now writes him she loves him only when she needs him). Remember his rant about Cersei's behavior to him after the Mycah incident, that he now realized or thought that she had been trying to sexually manipulate him into mutilating Arya. He also didn't like her behavior as queen regent - she's never had that kind of power before, there was always Robert there before, who Jaime saw as an antagonist, humiliating his sister - and even compared her to the Mad King at one point (when she was burning the Tower of the Hand and seemed to be enjoying the fire), something that obviously wasn't going to endear her to him. He wasn't going to run when she called, again, and risk his life for her.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He found out that Cersei only called him when she had need of him (you may remember the time when he stood in vigil in the sept with his father's body, and then Cersei came in at night, but Jaime could tell in the minute he saw her that she was only there to ask him something). He realized that she was selfish and didn't care about him (she had mistreated him, and rejected him a lot). He also knew that Tyrion's words at the Black Cell were true ("She's been fucking Osmund Kettleblack, Lancel, and Moon Boy for allI know"). He had also begun a relationship with another woman, the first woman aside from Cersei that he had cared about. He suddenly found no reason to go and help the woman who had used him, and cheated on him just to be left alone after he was no longer needed. And, even if the letter didn't say what he was needed for, he wouldn't have wanted to expse himself and fight to death with the only hand he had left to protect his sister's honor, now that he knew she did not have it.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime is starting to care for another woman and that's true. But also he's starting to see Cersei for who she really is...



"You're a fool. A beautiful golden fool..."



To me one of the most important moments is Jaime remembering how Cersei wanted him to kill/mutilate Arya in retaliation for Nymeria biting Joffrey and what comes through is how disgusted him is with himself in retrospect, realizing the lengths he had been willing to go, to satisfy Cersei's petty viciousness.



When he throws that letter on the fire, he's basically deciding to let Cersei for once pay the full cost of her own actions without him, or Kevan, or Tywin, or anybody else saving her from herself. It's his first act of independence in his whole life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all. Sorry for imposing here, but do we know what Qyburn's part of the letter was? "Qyburn's words were terse and to the point, Cersei's fevered and fervent." We never know what Qyburn wrote ... do we???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He doesn't want to be with her anymore because she has become too much of a mess for him to deal with and he has his own shit to figure out and fix. Plus he's like 100% done with the shitty politics and lies to keep power, while cersei is still clinging onto the throne for dear life and is refusing to let go. basically jaime realizes that cersei is too much of a destructive person and there's no way that he can help her and he doesn't want to get caught up in her destruction because he's just sick of it. and he's also realized that cersei isn't really this ~beautiful maiden~ that he always idealized her as.... but really a bitter, power hungry and vicious woman and thats the last thing he wants to deal with rn.



what i don't get though is that doesn't he realize if cersei is killed by the high septon because of the incest charges, tommen goes down too??? because he keeps thinking he needs to go back for tommen, while leaving cersei to die....and he doesn't realize that if cersei goes down, tommen goes with her lol? idk he's a fucking weirdo


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all. Sorry for imposing here, but do we know what Qyburn's part of the letter was? "Qyburn's words were terse and to the point, Cersei's fevered and fervent." We never know what Qyburn wrote ... do we???

That's a good point, but I'd say that even if Qyburn meant to lie (and even if he had quite good knowledge about the events around Jaime), it would be really hard for him to write something more likely to cause a refusal than that Cersei wants him to defend her against the accusation of fucking yet another Kettleblack. On the other hand, Cersei ordered him to "write what happened" and mentioned nothing about leaving parts of it unsaid (not that I think it would make Jaime decide otherwise), so I'd say that whether he wanted to fulfill her wish or to play against her, Qyburn's part of the letter was just the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly think that Jamie is just super tired of Cersei's shit, all her plotting, affairs, treason, and even the children they had together. He's tired of being her rock, brother, and lover. His capture by the Starks, journey with Brienne (and subsequent capture by the Bloody Mummers), maiming, and everything else kind of shattered his notions of Lannister pride and opened his eyes to the real world. Because of this, he just can't deal with Cersei's hubris, ego, and neediness. He needs to be Jamie Lannister, not Jamie and Cersei Lannister. Plus, where was Cersei when he needed her help? Nowhere. Jamie got a taste of the real world, now it's Cersei's turn to get her own taste of the real world.



Man, I only have one chapter left in AFFC. Now I really have to finish it, like today.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime's really starting to question his own morality, it seems.. I would say he was sort of a grey area, he obviously never felt remorse for some of the things he did (pushing Bran out of the window) and while being in Brienne's company had a certain effect on him, as he probably hasn't been in such proximity with a female before (besides Cersei) the cutting of his hand may have been a turning point for him



Like others have said, their relationship was dramatically changing but losing his hand really did it. I mean look at this way, Jaime was practically Prince Charming (though his morality was questionable) he probably thought himself perfect and obviously Cersei thought so too. She seems like one who obviously strives for perfection and for things to go her way. But lose that hand and everything changes. He's no longer the knight in shining armour as he can't fight - that hand was his source of glory, who he was as a knight, and now that is crumbling around him. What is Jaime's identity? Who is he now? All he's known is the life of glory, being the Kingslayer and all. And I think he was struggling to find an identity for himself after he lost his hand because really who is he?



However he realises that Cersei probably identified him the same way too. As a woman who desires perfection, Jaime was that for her, the perfect knight, the knight in shining armour, Prince Charming or whatever. But that illusion disappears when he loses his hand, he can't be a perfect knight anymore because he doesn't have his sword-hand. However Jaime realises that because Cersei's behaviour changes towards him and he sees how manipulative she really is to get her own way. She only has use for him when she needs him, he sees that and is determined not to fall into her trap. He thinks for his own.



Funnily enough, Brienne is quite opposite to him. Nobody knows the real world better than her. Both knights but both have very alternate views of the real world. While Jaime was the glorious knight in dreamland, Brienne was the knight without glory, simply because she is a woman, but her physical features have always been mocked as she is not the 'ideal woman'



I think that's important too, Jaime must've always taken pride in his looks but that, as well as being stuck in dreamland shattered when he lost his hand. Brienne on the other hand has never been pretty but has always been aware of the real world because of it. They make a great pair of companions in my opinion



So overall, losing his hand pulled the veil of fantasy from his eyes, dragged him from his glorious fantasies and the real world literally came and smacked him in the head. Actually, a combination of Brienne and losing his hand did that. Now we have a Jaime Lannister who is coming to terms with the real world and is questioning his identity: Who is he? What is he to other people?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the thought of your significant other "fucking moonboy" ran through your mind every 2 pages, you would bail out on the bitch too.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually a lot less impressed with the writing if Jaime's reasoning for neglecting Cersei is due to her infidelity. I think its shallow and lame just like Jaime.



I'd much rather Jaime be sick of Cersei due to the way she treats him, manipulates,, is selfish, and only values him for his sword hand and his cock.



If Jaime can't see that, then he is just a garbage character.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, wow... so my interpretation of the letter burning scene is completely different than [i think] everybody else in this thread so far. I'm only a little ways through DwD now, so not sure yet if the Cersei and Jaime story is going to be picked up there or not. But the impression I had is that Jaime's going to return to Kings Landing to defend her. His feelings toward Cersei are definitely getting complicated (and progressively more negative), but at this point I can't imagine him actually abandoning her to her fate. If Cersei falls, his own position becomes much more precarious -- as does that of the king/his son.



Either way, what a cliffhanger! I can't wait to see what happens!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, wow... so my interpretation of the letter burning scene is completely different than [i think] everybody else in this thread so far. I'm only a little ways through DwD now, so not sure yet if the Cersei and Jaime story is going to be picked up there or not. But the impression I had is that Jaime's going to return to Kings Landing to defend her. His feelings toward Cersei are definitely getting complicated (and progressively more negative), but at this point I can't imagine him actually abandoning her to her fate. If Cersei falls, his own position becomes much more precarious -- as does that of the king/his son.

Either way, what a cliffhanger! I can't wait to see what happens!

While I find your theory interesting, and certainly respect it (I honestly had not thought of this....), I can't seem to reconcile that it would happen. Since Storm of Swords Jaimie has been doing some uh... life improvement... and I think he is becoming (slowly) a respectable character, and learning what honor is all about He also woke up and saw Cersei for what she was (a coniving, user) and he deserves better. Plus, I think he kinda has a boner for Brienne... and yes, I think he can get past her horse teeth and manly figure. That my friends is the measure of a man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I find your theory interesting, and certainly respect it (I honestly had not thought of this....), I can't seem to reconcile that it would happen. Since Storm of Swords Jaimie has been doing some uh... life improvement... and I think he is becoming (slowly) a respectable character, and learning what honor is all about He also woke up and saw Cersei for what she was (a coniving, user) and he deserves better. Plus, I think he kinda has a boner for Brienne... and yes, I think he can get past her horse teeth and manly figure. That my friends is the measure of a man.

You're certainly right about Jaime's 'life improvement' and becoming more concerned with honor. And if faced with a choice between protecting Brienne or Cersei at this point, I think he would choose Brienne (I don't know yet what happens to Brienne after her encounter with Lady Stoneheart). *However*, I still cannot see him simply abandoning Cersei yet. It's still a matter of family honor at this point, and I don't think that he will simply walk away and leave her to her fate. If I had to guess the outcome, it would be that he saves her but then forces her out of the regency and away from Kings Landing. That would both satisfy protecting the family honor and punish her for her idiotic rule. (Again, Brienne is a wildcard and I have no idea what will happen there). I also worry that if Cersei falls (and possibly executed) after her trial, that Tommen would then be in danger -- if not at risk of death, at the least he would become a puppet/prisoner of the new High Septon. And that also is not an acceptable outcome for Jaime (although I'm not sure that he is fully aware of what is happening with regard to the faith's new militancy).

Great user name, by the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're certainly right about Jaime's 'life improvement' and becoming more concerned with honor. And if faced with a choice between protecting Brienne or Cersei at this point, I think he would choose Brienne (I don't know yet what happens to Brienne after her encounter with Lady Stoneheart). *However*, I still cannot see him simply abandoning Cersei yet. It's still a matter of family honor at this point, and I don't think that he will simply walk away and leave her to her fate. If I had to guess the outcome, it would be that he saves her but then forces her out of the regency and away from Kings Landing. That would both satisfy protecting the family honor and punish her for her idiotic rule. (Again, Brienne is a wildcard and I have no idea what will happen there). I also worry that if Cersei falls (and possibly executed) after her trial, that Tommen would then be in danger -- if not at risk of death, at the least he would become a puppet/prisoner of the new High Septon. And that also is not an acceptable outcome for Jaime (although I'm not sure that he is fully aware of what is happening with regard to the faith's new militancy).

Great user name, by the way.

Speaking of Brienne... I think that she is alive (maybe not well, but alive..). Book 4 has sooooooo much Brienne (overload, IMO), that if she did meet her end, her entire story in book 4 would have been a total waste. I can see Brienne dying sometime down the road, but I believe her end will be a heroic one... going down in a blaze of glory, if you will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides Cersei's bitchness, Jaime is not the same person that was in love with her.


Cersei and Jaime are so similar in aspect and personality that the love between them is nothing but a love to themselves... an expression of their huge egos.


Jaime's ego has been deteriorating since his capture, he has been growing up a lot...he does not love himself as much as he did, and he can now realise that Cersei is just a beautiful crazy bitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not overlook the loss of his hand, and then the loss of his father in a way that he is partly responsible, in all this. Now that he is no longer the master swordsman who doesn't need to give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of him, he is rediscovering his humanity and trying to accomplish things that really matter: peace, justice, but most importantly, a place of honor in the White Book that future generations will read.



He's a changed man, but Cersei is still the same. He no longer see's as a sex object -- and she is getting older, btw -- but a shallow, conniving and ultimately doomed woman.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it took Tyrion's remark about moonboy etc for Jamie to wake up and realize what Cersei was. I think he must have thought before that Cersei was a mirror to him and now he's seeing that she's not. But his time with Brienne and losing his hand also changed him. It made him less useful to Cersei and therefore more open to seeing the ugly side of her turned at him. The moonboy remark and the infidelity were just a crack in the ice, the rest came to him from looking at Cersei without the rose coloured lenses,


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also like the dichotomy at play as Jaime wakes up to see the inner ugliness that is masked by Cersei's outer beauty and the inner beauty masked by Brienne's outer ugliness.



Whether or not this leads to a happy ending for him is another matter.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×