they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[WhiteOwl18]

I believe that R + L = J, and that J is legitimate (two ways Jon can be legitimate, R and L married, or royal decree -Aerys).

The events at the ToJ are interesting - hopefully we will learn more.

My view is that we can infer what the KG duties are up till the fall of K/L and the death of Aerys - the end of the Targaryen dynasty. The KG are a Targaryen creation, instituted to protect and serve the Targaryen royal family under direction of a Targaryen King. It is not clear what the KGs responsibilities would be after the Targaryen dynasty ended. Robert Baratheon elected to continue the KG tradition while he was king, he could have decided that the KG institution died with Targaryen dynasty.

When Ned and company meet the three KG at ToJ - I think everyone knows who the king of Westeros is - its Robert Baratheon. Neither Viserys or Jon are a king from a practical view - what are they king of?? However, I think Jon could be considered a king from a 'prophecy fulfillment' perspective.

Why did the KG fight? - They had sworn their lives to Aerys and the Targaryen dynasty and failed - they wanted to die in battle (a KG version of seppuku).

We now have two points of view that are/were LC of the KG - I think we will learn more about the KG in the upcoming books.

Not for those three KG. They call him the usurper, so it's pretty clear that, for them, the Targs are still the rulling family. For them, Jon is the king.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

"I'm only following orders" is a plea that the KG can use to make themselves feel better about doing dishonorable shit for a dishonorable man because they have a VOW that exonerates them from dishonor in doing dishonorable shit for a dishonorable man.

<snipped the rest>

You make an excellent point. It occurs to me that perhaps GRRM is showing that society in Westeros has decayed to the point that hidebound thinking like you illustrate has become the norm there, instead of people thinking for themselves and behaving according to commonly-accepted standards of decency and morality. I believe in the military (U.S. anyway) there is an exception to the practice of obeying all orders of a superior, wherein soldiers are honor-bound to DISobey any order which is clearly immoral or criminal (unless their own survival is at stake, perhaps).

We see this blind thinking at the Wall as well, where so many of the NW simply cannot conceive that the wildlings are not their real enemy. They've lost the idea of why the NW was created in the first place.

[Ygrain]

You make an excellent point. It occurs to me that perhaps GRRM is showing that society in Westeros has decayed to the point that hidebound thinking like you illustrate has become the norm there, instead of people thinking for themselves and behaving according to commonly-accepted standards of decency and morality. I believe in the military (U.S. anyway) there is an exception to the practice of obeying all orders of a superior, wherein soldiers are honor-bound to DISobey any order which is clearly immoral or criminal (unless their own survival is at stake, perhaps).

We see this blind thinking at the Wall as well, where so many of the NW simply cannot conceive that the wildlings are not their real enemy. They've lost the idea of why the NW was created in the first place.

While you are right that the NW has definitely lost the grasp of its original purpose, it's not like the Westerosi society degraded into this way of thinking - it is actually built on the principles of fealty and obedience, reflecting the same stage in early feudal societies. The word of the liege is above personal honour or family.

[Djinn]

Has it occured to you that when Rhaegar realized what a huge problem the communication gap was, he arranged for some means to receive news faster, and so the communication at the end was better than at the beginning?

Besides, the big news, like the death of the king and extermination of his dynasty, tend to spread way faster than some gossip about a cocky young lordling imprisoned for causing public scandal.

If that was so, then Hightower, Dayne and Whent willingly commited treason when they became aware that the rebels were marching on Aerys and they didn't try to protect him. But since they didn't leave the TOJ with Jon when the siege at SE was lifted, time to add stupid to their resume, since rebels armies were closer to their infant King. And better comunication(ravens) would imply a Maester? Ned doesn't mention any. Or they didn't know and actually received all that info from Ned in his speech. Daenerys and Viserys can thank the Gods Willem Darry wasn't that moronic. Clearly, Aerys wasn't the only mentally impared person at Court. When Tywin quit, the colective I.Q. of the Red Keep must have taken a serious tumble(Varys and Pycelle pulling all the weight).

The more i think about the KG, the more i like Areo Hotah.

[CosimaistheHottest]

If the KG at TOJ had the sense God gave a pig, they wouldn't need a crystal ball to know that many honorable people aren't like them in being willing to do atrocious things just because a king told them to...the successful revolution proves that. Surely it would be worth a try to see if they can persuade Ned. Instead of marching up to him with swords out, posturing heroically, why not invite Ned to disarm and enter the tower to negotiate with his sister, under their word of honor they will not harm him? If it doesn't work out and Ned disagrees, they can still escort him out and then try to kill him honorably. What do they lose by trying? But they do not try. They just go for "noble" idiotic martyrdom based on a narrow rigid interpretation of their vows, putting the heir in more danger than if they bent and tried to negotiate.

This. :agree:

[The Ned's Little Girl]

While you are right that the NW has definitely lost the grasp of its original purpose, it's not like the Westerosi society degraded into this way of thinking - it is actually built on the principles of fealty and obedience, reflecting the same stage in early feudal societies. The word of the liege is above personal honour or family.

Gotcha; another excellent point. It did occur to me (after pressing "Post" of course :D ) that obeying the monarch's orders IS the highest form of morality in Westerosi society.

I was thinking that GRRM was illustrating this as a way of showing his own point of view on this question, knowing that most of his 21st century readers would probably read between the lines and understand that this kind of behavior is perhaps an inevitable outgrowth of a totalitarian society, like fascism or communism - or absolute monarchy.

[WhiteOwl18]

If that was so, then Hightower, Dayne and Whent willingly commited treason when they became aware that the rebels were marching on Aerys and they didn't try to protect him. But since they didn't leave the TOJ with Jon when the siege at SE was lifted, time to add stupid to their resume, since rebels armies were closer to their infant King. And better comunication(ravens) would imply a Maester? Ned doesn't mention any. Or they didn't know and actually received all that info from Ned in his speech. Daenerys and Viserys can thank the Gods Willem Darry wasn't that moronic. Clearly, Aerys wasn't the only mentally impared person at Court. When Tywin quit, the colective I.Q. of the Red Keep must have taken a serious tumble(Varys and Pycelle pulling all the weight).

The more i think about the KG, the more i like Areo Hotah.

They didn't know that Aerys was not protected! As far as they knew, there were others KG with him. By the time they knew he was dead, it was too late to do anything about it!

[Ygrain]

If that was so, then Hightower, Dayne and Whent willingly commited treason when they became aware that the rebels were marching on Aerys and they didn't try to protect him. But since they didn't leave the TOJ with Jon when the siege at SE was lifted, time to add stupid to their resume, since rebels armies were closer to their infant King. And better comunication(ravens) would imply a Maester? Ned doesn't mention any. Or they didn't know and actually received all that info from Ned in his speech. Daenerys and Viserys can thank the Gods Willem Darry wasn't that moronic. Clearly, Aerys wasn't the only mentally impared person at Court. When Tywin quit, the colective I.Q. of the Red Keep must have taken a serious tumble(Varys and Pycelle pulling all the weight).

The more i think about the KG, the more i like Areo Hotah.

Faster still doesn't mean instant, we are talking about the distance of several hundred miles. Ned's army was rushing towards KL from Trident and there is no telling who and how had the means/knowledge to inform ToJ after Rhaegar's death. If you take into consideration that Dany was conceived before Rhaegar left for the Trident (Darry was present), evacuated shortly prior the Sack and born on Dragonstone 9 months later, that means that the time span between Rhaegar's departure for the Trident and the Sack itself was only a few weeks and the time between the Trident and the Sack even less. It's actually quite possible that the news of the Trident arrived only together with the news of the Sack. - Oh, and rebel armies approaching Storms' End were still a couple hundred miles away.

Ned does not mention a maester but he does refer to at least one other person present other than HR ("they had found him" holding Lyanna's body). I don't know how long it takes to breed and train ravens to carry messages, so I dare not guess if they could establish a rookery within the time they had available. I rather suspect they didn't and relied on a friendly location (Starfall) to supply the news. Whatever the means was, though, they did know, the way they respond to Ned shows this.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

They didn't know that Aerys was not protected! As far as they knew, there were others KG with him. By the time they knew he was dead, it was too late to do anything about it!

It might be a fun exercise to total how many times that exact point has been made in this thread. :bang:

Then again, maybe not. :bawl:

[WhiteOwl18]

It might be a fun exercise to total how many times that exact point has been made in this thread. :bang:

Then again, maybe not. :bawl:

Indeed! :)

[W. Frey - Wedding Planner]

I'd say the real question is: Does Selmy know the truth? It seems like he started to speak to Dany about how she has inherited her father's secrets and they stops telling them at her behest. I doubt he went to the Trident blind to the whereabouts and duties of his sworn brothers. Insights?

[Lonin]

Not for those three KG. They call him the usurper, so it's pretty clear that, for them, the Targs are still the rulling family. For them, Jon is the king.

I disagree.

In fact, Robert was an usurper, that does not mean that Robert was not the king. They know Robert is king, that's why they call him an usurper. They know the Targaryen dynasty has fallen. They know the war is over. They know they lost the war.

[The guy from the Vale]

Selmy doesn't know about Jon, or he would have gone to the Wall ninstead of going to Essos. He was also never trustede by Rhaegar the way Arthur Dayne was. That said, Barristan can certainly confirm some parts of the background story and might be able to piece some things together if given some additional info. But since I don't think Barristan will arrive in Westeros alive, this is not really going to come up again...

[W. Frey - Wedding Planner]

Selmy doesn't know about Jon, or he would have gone to the Wall ninstead of going to Essos. He was also never trustede by Rhaegar the way Arthur Dayne was. That said, Barristan can certainly confirm some parts of the background story and might be able to piece some things together if given some additional info. But since I don't think Barristan will arrive in Westeros alive, this is not really going to come up again...

What about the marriage and just not the child?

[BitsOfBrains]

I mean, no one wanted lyanna dead, nor Jon. Did Rhaegar had some plans for Lyanna in case he died? And Why isn't she allowed to be with her family? Ned's companions, the KG, none of them had to die

" And Why isn't she allowed to be with her family? "

Usually kidnapped rape victims aren't allowed to be with their families. Generally speaking.

I honestly can't see any other explanation for the whole ToJ thing than Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and is raping her every so often.

Lyanna was never described as stupid, and I can't think of any other word to describe a woman who would willingly plunge the kingdom into war so she can have the privilege of being someones whore and bearing him bastards.

At one point we hear Lyanna complaining that Robert, her betrothed at that point, wouldn't be able to be a "one woman man" yet we are supposed to believe she is totally cool with not only being with a philanderer, but being his whore?

In Westeros being the lady wife of a philanderer is NBD, but a highborn lady being a whore for a married man, not cool.

No, the ToJ was Rhaegars rape dungeon and the KG were his jailers.

If you remember Ariel Castro, the guy in Ohio who kept 3 women in his rape dungeon and actual got a child on one of them was so delusional that he thought they were a happy family.

Rhaegar = Ariel Castro

[The Wolves]

I disagree.

In fact, Robert was an usurper, that does not mean that Robert was not the king. They know Robert is king, that's why they call him an usurper. They know the Targaryen dynasty has fallen. They know the war is over. They know they lost the war.

Robert was not their King. Their loyalty was still with the Targaryens and if it be Viserys or Jon(if R+L=J is true)the Targaryens were the rightful kings to them. Robert was no King to them.

[Ygrain]

I disagree.

In fact, Robert was an usurper, that does not mean that Robert was not the king. They know Robert is king, that's why they call him an usurper. They know the Targaryen dynasty has fallen. They know the war is over. They know they lost the war.

If somebody is referred to as an usurper, it means that he has taken by force something that rightfully belongs to somebody else, and you acknowledge the rightful claim of the previous owner, not the new one.

[The Wolves]

Rhaegar = Ariel Castro

We don't know enough to go that far and call Rhaegar that.

[Ygrain]

" And Why isn't she allowed to be with her family? "

Usually kidnapped rape victims aren't allowed to be with their families. Generally speaking.

I honestly can't see any other explanation for the whole ToJ thing than Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and is raping her every so often.

Lyanna was never described as stupid, and I can't think of any other word to describe a woman who would willingly plunge the kingdom into war so she can have the privilege of being someones whore and bearing him bastards.

At one point we hear Lyanna complaining that Robert, her betrothed at that point, wouldn't be able to be a "one woman man" yet we are supposed to believe she is totally cool with not only being with a philanderer, but being his whore?

In Westeros being the lady wife of a philanderer is NBD, but a highborn lady being a whore for a married man, not cool.

No, the ToJ was Rhaegars rape dungeon and the KG were his jailers.

If you remember Ariel Castro, the guy in Ohio who kept 3 women in his rape dungeon and actual got a child on one of them was so delusional that he thought they were a happy family.

Rhaegar = Ariel Castro

It's curious that the brother of the kidnapped and raped victim thinks one of her jailors "the finest knight that ever lived", or that he draws comparisons between the rapist and her betrothed in favour of the rapist... unless he knows that there was no rape involved.

As for Lyanna's agenda: first and foremost, she didn't start a war, Aerys did by demanding that Jon Arryn hands him over the heads of Ned and Robert on a silver platter. Secondly, being the one and only mistress of a loved person is a bit different than being married for life to an unloved whoreman, and thirdly, there is the whole issue of the Targaryen polygamy that would actually allow Lyanna to be with Rhaegar without cheating.

[mambru]

Revolution? What are you talking about? There was no change of social order in Westeros.

I beg your pardon. I used the wrong word. I meant to say, "If the KG at TOJ had the sense God gave a pig, they wouldn't need a crystal ball to know that many honorable people aren't like them in being willing to do atrocious things just because a king told them to...the successful REBELLION proves that."

It seems that you are failing to grasp the reality of the pseudomedieval Westerosi society as well as the mindset of its people. They swear fealty to their lieges, and those in turn swear to the king, to do exactly that which you claim that Ned didn't: to obey.

I fail to grasp it? How upsetting. Let me think it over and see where I've gone wrong. I'll glance at the awoiaf to refresh my memory.

King Aerys II, who had become increasingly paranoid, since his several months of confined imprisonment during the Defiance of Duskendale, had ordered the fathers of the prisoners to come south to answer the charges against their sons. When they did, they and their sons were all murdered without trial.^[2]Ethan Glover was the only survivor. Lord Rickard Stark, who demanded a trial by combat, was roasted in his armor, as his son Brandon was put in a strangulation device and was forced to watch, strangling himself in the process of trying to save his father. ^[2] Soon after, the Mad King demanded the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark from their guardian, Jon Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie. Rather than comply, Lord Arryn raised his banners in revolt against these unjust acts.^[3]

But how could that be? Lord Arryn was known as the soul of honor. And as Lord Paramount he had fealty to the king! Surely his pseudomedieval honor therefore obliged him to hand over those two boys he raised from childhood. Yeah, the king will almost certainly put those two boys to death unjustly without a fair trial. But since the king ordered it, Jon would be totally guiltless in handing over innocent young Ned and Robert to the king to be killed, in your view. So why didn't he? Is it because Arryn was vilely dishonorable? I tend to think it's because the Westerosi code of honor allows you to disobey your king - and indeed, rebel and overthrow him - when he demands something of you that is too vile and dishonorable to give him. Honorable Arryn chose to flip off the king for the sake of Ned and Robert - and they weren't even his kin. So, I do think I grasp some things about Westerosi honor.

And once again, if the king orders his vassal to hand over his nephew, the vassal is NOT committing any kinslaying.

The fact that you say it once again does not prove it is so. I say that's hairsplitting. If I know where an innocent person is hidden that someone wants to kill, and I tell where that person is hidden, I share in the guilt of his death even if I didn't kill him with my own hands. I doubt Ned would see it any differently. He angrily told Robert to his face that killing Rhaenys and Aegon was murder, just because they were children - and they weren't even his kin. When the baby in question is his own nephew, the act would be even more dishonorable. Stannis, that guy who is obsessive-compulsive about honor, weighed the loyalty he owed to his king and his lord and the loyalty he owed his brother as his kin - and decided that the dishonor of fighting against his own blood was worse than the dishonor of rebelling against his king.

As for the supposed dumbness of the three KG, it is curious that Ned, of all people, is sad that he has to kill them, and he dubs Arthur Dayne "the finest knight that ever lived", even though he nearly died by Dayne's hand. Apparently, he didn't find their reasoning that incomprehensible.

Because Ned is renowned for never ever being dumb, and having a keen grasp on how acting according to an oversimplified code of honor in a complex situation can lead you to doing HUGE harm to what you honor if you're not careful and flexible enough.

BTW, in case it escaped your attention, Aerys still had the support of a big part of realm, despite committing atrocities, he even had a bigger army than the rebels, and what eventually broke his neck was not his atrocities but hurting Tywin's pride.

Oh yeah...it was just a flesh wound...he could still BITE!