they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[Musashisamurai]

None of the KG at the ToJ were afraid of one another defecting. The comment about Darry is this: He's a good guy, but he's not our level. He ran away. We stay and fight (like our king commanded)"

The line of succession was Aerys->Rhaegar->Aegon->Viserys->Rheanys->Dany then to Robert->Stannis->Renly, after which uts a tossuo between Martell, Arryn, although if theyre all dead, they have bigger problems. Robert got the throne because of his swords. Like for example, the Israeli's in RL. They conquered the Golan Heights, and they have it because they won, not because its really Israeli.

The whole rebellion is a lot like the Glorious rebellion in a sense. William of Orange was not tge "king" in a legal sense but he had soldiers, support, and his opponent was very disliked. And he was crowned. Likewise with the Hanoverians-shoukd have gone to the Jacobites, but instead passed to George I

[Pod The Impaler]

Sorry, I stopped reading at the first error. The Prince that was Promised must be legitimate in order to be a Prince.

What a joke - In prophecy, BLOOD matters, not legalities.

[Ygrain]

What a joke - In prophecy, BLOOD matters, not legalities.

You may try and explain it to someone brought up in a society where legalities are paramount.

[Consigliere]

I disagree - It is not a fact that Robert is a Targaryen heir, that view is based on a non canon wiki article. Viserys was alive when Robert was crowned, and has the better Targ blood claim - no one is suggesting that they should have crowned him. Yes, he has Targaryen blood, but he is a Baratheon and started the Baratheon dynasty. Roberts Targaryen blood was used to give the appearance of continuity in the ruling of Westeros and to appease the loyalist. No one in the books regards Robert Baratheon as a continuation of the Targaryen dynasty, you even mentioned Robert's dragonspawn comments. Robert won the IT with his war hammer, not his Targaryen blood. The Martels and Plumms also have Targ blood - no one suggests that they are heirs.

Since the Targaryen dynasty is over, Daenerys has no real claim to the Iron Throne by right of succession. Her claim will be by right of conquest.

As I have mentioned, I think R + L = J, and Jon is legit - so, from a Targaryen succession view Jon has the best claim. However, the Targaryen dynasty ended with the fall of K/L.

My disagreement with the majority of the R + L = J, Jon is legit crowd, is what can be inferred by the 3KG remaining at ToJ after the fall of the Targ dynasty. The 3KG are loyal Targaryen supporters, willing to fight and die to defend the Targaryen dynasty. What is unclear to me, is what would be the state of the vows and oaths made by the KG once the Targaryen dynasty was over. You could argue, as most do, that the vows and oaths continued on, adding more evidence that Jon is legit, Targaryen heir. My view, is that we don't know enough, factually, to state that the oaths and vows continue after the fall of the Targaryens. Selmy and Jaime seemed to feel they were free to join the new Baratheon KG.

Why did the 3KG fight at ToJ ? - if you believe that the oaths and vows continued after the fall, then they were protecting Jon. Another option is that with the fall of the Targ dynasty, they felt they had failed their oaths and vows. They had pledged their lives and they preferred death in battle as opposed to surrender.

I agree with you that Robert was not made king solely because of his Targaryen ancestry. In AGoT, Robert says that Jon or Ned should have been king. Ned replies you had the better claim. This exchange says to me that both Ned or Jon Arryn had a claim and could have claimed the throne if they wanted to but chose not to. At the end of the day, Roberts Targaryen ancestry was incidental, rather than instrumental in him being chosen to be king. Also agree that the Targaryen dynasty ended and that Roberts reign is the start of the Baratheon dynasty and not a continuation of the Targaryen one.

My disagreement with the majority of the R + L = J, Jon is legit crowd, is what can be inferred by the 3KG remaining at ToJ after the fall of the Targ dynasty.

To answer this question - “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

The above quote makes it clear that the three at the ToJ consider Robert to be a usurper and therefore not the king. They have remained at the ToJ to protect whom they believed to be the rightful king. As readers, many of us consider the Targaryen dynasty to have ended with the Sack of KL. Hightower's, Dayne's and Whent's exchange with Ned tells me that the three of them don't see it that way - "We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

[Consigliere]

None of the KG at the ToJ were afraid of one another defecting. The comment about Darry is this: He's a good guy, but he's not our level. He ran away. We stay and fight (like our king commanded)"

The line of succession was Aerys->Rhaegar->Aegon->Viserys->Rheanys->Dany then to Robert->Stannis->Renly, after which uts a tossuo between Martell, Arryn, although if theyre all dead, they have bigger problems. Robert got the throne because of his swords. Like for example, the Israeli's in RL. They conquered the Golan Heights, and they have it because they won, not because its really Israeli.

The whole rebellion is a lot like the Glorious rebellion in a sense. William of Orange was not tge "king" in a legal sense but he had soldiers, support, and his opponent was very disliked. And he was crowned. Likewise with the Hanoverians-shoukd have gone to the Jacobites, but instead passed to George I

Assuming R+L=J to be true, the line of succession would be: Aerys>Rhaegar>Aegon>Jon>Viserys. Where Rhaenys and Dany come in the succession is hazy since after DoD all female claimants come after all male ones. It is plausible that houses such as the Baratheons and Martells, who have Targaryen ancestry, with male claimants actually come before Rhaenys and Dany in the line of succession.

[Fae Boleyn]

How many times do I have to say this? The KGs swore a vow. However, when Jaime kills Aerys and Barristan goes to Robert, they realized that it's not even okay to trust the KGs, and each other anymore. But, they all know one thing that Willem is a very trustworthy person. To prevent a possibility that one of them deflects to Robert, they probably thought it was better to just stay in TOJ.

If we look at the text, the conversation be interpreted as:

Ned: Viserys is in Dragonstone with Willem. Why don't you guys go?

KG: Willem is a good man. They are fleeing. But KG don't flee. I'm not going because that would be fleeing.

I'm saying this again: it is also extremely likely that Rhaegar gave them orders something like "No matter what happens, you must protect Lyanna". We know that R was too obsessed with TPTWP to even name an heir in case Aegon died, thus he didn't even think about letting them go protect Viserys if something turned awry. He thought he was going to win, and will come back soon to meet his lady love, so he unwittingly made the KGs stay by Lyanna's side, to the end. So still bound to this command, the KGs couldn't leave TOJ.

It's not quoting. I am saying that it is likely. If not, why did the KGs even bother to say "Willem is a good man and true."?

They could have acknowledged Willem as a good man for any number of reasons, that's largely irrelevant. Probably they were saying he was a decent choice as guard for exiled members of the royal family. And none of them ever gave any indication of losing faith in each other; they're disgusted by Jaime but where are you getting that it's made them doubt each other as well?

You keep saying they had to follow Rhaegar's orders whatever came after. Not true. The Kingsguard are sworn to absolute obedience - to the King and the King alone. Sure, in absence of a direct command from the King, a command from a living Crown Prince holds, which is why they were at the ToJ in the first place. Aerys only told Gerold to make sure Rhaegar comes back, nothing more, so while Rhaegar lived and Aerys didn't countermand him the KG obeyed Rhaegar. But when that Crown Prince is dead, if your King, the man you must protect above all others, is elsewhere? You get to him - at least one of the three should have been gone and trying to reach Viserys by then. If they felt they needed to honor Rhaegar's wishes out of honor (not obligation; he's dead and wasn't the King, they aren't obligated to do anything he wanted now), then split up!

It's also not possible that they swore an oath to Rhaegar to remain, come what may. Their KG oath takes priority, and all three of them are clearly all about sticking to their KG oaths.

[Fae Boleyn]

Assuming R+L=J to be true, the line of succession would be: Aerys>Rhaegar>Aegon>Jon>Viserys. Where Rhaenys and Dany come in the succession is hazy since after DoD all female claimants come after all male ones. It is plausible that houses such as the Baratheons and Martells, who have Targaryen ancestry, with male claimants actually come before Rhaenys and Dany in the line of succession.

I'm not sure, but in the normal course of things I don't think Dany and Rhaenys count at all. The Targ succession comes closest, near as I can tell, to the Salic Law in France, where female-line claimants are entirely barred. Take, for example, Francis I, King in his own right because he was the next male-line claimant. In any other royal line, he would have been King Consort (though likely granted the King Regnant's crown, tbh) to his wife Claude, wife of his predecessor. In Salic law, once you were born female, you and your descendants were forever barred from succession. This is part of why the French royal family switched a few times - unlike, say, England, families didn't get overthrown or name-change from a female heir. They jumped to a different branch entirely because they had to find that magic male-line boy.

Assuming the Targ succession is that extreme, then... Well. The Baratheons don't count either, their Targ blood comes from a woman. Same for the Martells, not sure about the Arryns. In that case, by the strict laws, the next in line would probably be an heir to Aerion Brightflame - he had a son who was passed over, not excluded from the succession, so regardless of any bastards he had in Lys per what GRRM said in some interview or other about relatives of Dany's in Lys descended from him, he clearly had one legitimate child. But, you know, finding one of them would be hard to do, harder to prove, so it'd be more likely they'd throw the no-female-line thing out of the window because it's an emergency. Which is basically how Dany's symbolic claim in canon works; she's the only Targ anyone can outright prove is a Targ, so lady or not, she gets the throne. Blue Aegon puts a wrench in all that, of course. (And if he's a Brightflame heir rather than a Blackfyre, which is one of my personal favorite ideas if he's not Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon, he's still potentially an issue.) Jon can also put a wrench in it should he be revealed, though his NW vows mean he's less a barrier than Blue Aegon to Dany.

Robert's better claim argument that the rebels used comes out of the fact that no other Westerosi house is as extreme as the Targs. They go in order of gender, then age, so using Robert's blood claim makes sense to them.

[Consigliere]

<snip>

I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty certain that post DoD, all male claimants came before all female ones. The women were not barred entirely. If anything, the succession is more akin to semi-salic law.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty certain that post DoD, all male claimants came before all female ones. The women were not barred entirely. If anything, the succession is more akin to semi-salic law.

I think you've got it right. Since the Dance, Targs have practiced a "highly modified form of agnatic primogeniture" that would place females behind all possible male claimants, even collateral ones. That's info from GRRM via Ran and I believe it to mean that even male cousins who stem from a female branch of the family would be considered over a female from the main branch. Although Fae is certainly correct in noting the possibility of Aerion's son having descendants.

[Consigliere]

I think you've got it right. Since the Dance, Targs have practiced a "highly modified form of agnatic primogeniture" that would place females behind all possible male claimants, even collateral ones. That's info from GRRM via Ran and I believe it to mean that even male cousins who stem from a female branch of the family would be considered over a female from the main branch. Although Fae is certainly correct in noting the possibility of Aerion's son having descendants.

I'm not sure how things would work wrt Aerion. Considering the Great Council passed him over and established a new line of succession, I would think that his descendants are no longer considered to be in the line of succession.

[MtnLion]

Because he's not, at all.

He's a Baratheon. Any Targaryen claim he has comes through from his grandmother - ie the female line. If that female ine is acceptable, then Dany comes before him. But its not. And even if it did, Viserys undoubtedly came way waaay before him.

A cadet branch is the same family still through the male line - founded normally by a younger brother who missed out on the big prize, so to speak, but still carries the claim, and passes it ever distantly through his sons.

The Baratheons are not a cadet branch of the Targaryen family.

What Robert has is the best claim amongst the leaders of the rebellion, not the best claim left as a Targaryen.

Because he is of house Targaryen. I didn't mean cadet, as in male line, I meant collateral, sorry. Robert is a collateral line of Targaryen, and it does not matter that a female was the Targaryen that he inherited from.

ETA: The real implication I was making is that Robert, Stannis, Renly, various male Plumm descendants, and many more male descendants of the Targaryen lineage come far before Daenerys in the inheritance laws for House Targaryen. It is also clear that Viserys, and Daenerys' male children would have a stronger claim than Robert, if they cared to make the claim.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

TTB-- a definite possibility. It would depend on the words of the Council, I guess. Personally I'm pretty convinced that any offspring of Aerion is mixed up in the Varys/Illyrio business somehow.

Mtn Lion-- I agree. I think Robert's Targaryen claim, which would supersede Daenerys', was used as a propaganda tool post rebellion to cement his claim and convince Targaryen holdouts. If Jon had been a girl I don't think Ned would be as worried about hiding him from Robert. Remember that Robert wanted to kill Dany not for her own claim, but for the sons she might have once she was a woman married.

[MtnLion]

Well, first of all, we seem to be using different definitions for a couple of words.

A) The definition of "dynasty" that I am using is:

dy·nas·ty

noun

1. a line of hereditary rulers of a country.

B) The definition of "heir" that I am using is:

noun

2. A person who succeeds or is in line to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office.

<snip>

How did Robert have the best claim of the rebels? Because he is a member of House Targaryen. Don't stumble over his last name, he is related to all of those Targaryens, and his relationship is closer than anyone else's in the rebel's group of claimants. He calimed his right by heredity, and that is what Ned pointed out.

1. Yes he is, he is a member of House Targaryen, and is related to Daenerys. He is male, therefore any claim that he has is superior to Daenerys’ claim. Just because he has a Baratheon lastname does nto exclude him from being a raltive to Daenerys, Viserys, Aerys, Rhaegar, etc.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

To answer this question - “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

The above quote makes it clear that the three at the ToJ consider Robert to be a usurper and therefore not the king. They have remained at the ToJ to protect whom they believed to be the rightful king. As readers, many of us consider the Targaryen dynasty to have ended with the Sack of KL. Hightower's, Dayne's and Whent's exchange with Ned tells me that the three of them don't see it that way - "We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

A usurper is one who takes something out of line. In this case Viserys had a better claim, but Robert took it out of line. All others who had a better claim than Robert had been put to death, and presented as a gift of loyalty to Robert.

[MtnLion]

Assuming R+L=J to be true, the line of succession would be: Aerys>Rhaegar>Aegon>Jon>Viserys. Where Rhaenys and Dany come in the succession is hazy since after DoD all female claimants come after all male ones. It is plausible that houses such as the Baratheons and Martells, who have Targaryen ancestry, with male claimants actually come before Rhaenys and Dany in the line of succession.

I know that supposedly there is some Targaryen blood in house Martell, but we do not know at what level. We do know that as far back as Lewyn and his wife there was no Targaryen blood. However, House Plumm seems to be as thick in Targaryen blood as House Baratheon. That would add a few more claimants ahead of Daenerys, since she cannot inherit before any collateral males. Her son would have a stronger claim than any others, except Aegon or Jon, in that order.

[Consigliere]

I know that supposedly there is some Targaryen blood in house Martell, but we do not know at what level. We do know that as far back as Lewyn and his wife there was no Targaryen blood. However, House Plumm seems to be as thick in Targaryen blood as House Baratheon. That would add a few more claimants ahead of Daenerys, since she cannot inherit before any collateral males. Her son would have a stronger claim than any others, except Aegon or Jon, in that order.

I figured that. I was just throwing out a couple of examples from the top of my head. The point I was making with that post was that Rhaenys and Dany's place in the succession is uncertain. There are numerous male claimants about, some that we may not even be aware of yet, who have better claims than them.

[MtnLion]

I figured that. I was just throwing out a couple of examples from the top of my head. The point I was making with that post was that Rhaenys and Dany's place in the succession is uncertain. There are numerous male claimants about, some that we may not even be aware of yet, who have better claims than them.

Absolutely accurate. Just because Daenerys doesn't know this, and because it has not been prominent in the books many people think that Daenerys has a claim when she clearly does not. How is she going to deal with the sudden realization that she has been wrong all along? This is going to be very interesting in how GRRM decides to unfold this story. It can go so many ways.

As Lady G says, Robert was not afraid of Daenerys until it was possible that she would birth a boy. That boy would have a stronger claim to the throne than Robert's, thus was a threat.

[Consigliere]

Absolutely accurate. Just because Daenerys doesn't know this, and because it has not been prominent in the books many people think that Daenerys has a claim when she clearly does not. How is she going to deal with the sudden realization that she has been wrong all along? This is going to be very interesting in how GRRM decides to unfold this story. It can go so many ways.

As Lady G says, Robert was not afraid of Daenerys until it was possible that she would birth a boy. That boy would have a stronger claim to the throne than Robert's, thus was a threat.

I agree with this.

To your previous post. I believe that the Targaryen blood in House Martell would have come from Daenerys I. In saying that I would assume that Doran, Quentyn and Trystane would, strictly speaking, have a better claim than Dany as well.

[Dany Girl]

Anybody else sincerely hoping for a Tower of Joy stand alone after the main series ends?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

We're talking about 2 different types of claims for the IT. One is a hereditary claim and the other is a claim by right of conquest. Daenerys is definitely confused (or ignorant) of the difference between the two. She thinks her claim is purely hereditary. By conquest, however, Daenerys has as much claim as anybody who has an army capable of overthrowing the current occupants.

Under Aerys, Robert Baratheon absolutely has a hereditary claim to the throne, although at most he would be 4th in line behind Rhaegar, Aegon and Viserys (and barring any other collateral Targaryen branches that we don't have enough info on yet). So, as can happen rarely, he in effect had a double claim of both conquest AND heredity once the rebellion was successful.

So, it seems to me that there really isn't a contradiction between Robert's sitting the IT as a conqueror or as an heir. He's both.

I guess the 3 KG at the ToJ simply didn't see it that way.