they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe the decision to leave a KG behind had already been made, and Jaime was simply complaining about being the one chosen?

Claiming that it is an ironclad rule is, again, merely speculation. Speculation is not evidence.

I'm sorry but exactly how much more explicit do you need it to be? I cannot fathom how anyone can read that as anything other than the fact that at least one of them must be with the king.

People are playing pretty fast and loose with an organization whose raison d'etre is to guard the KING.

[Ygrain]

Almost exactly what AM said, and yes; the context was appropriate.

GRRM's answer was about that particular situation. "Remaining family members" may not automatically mean that one of them is the new king, but it certainly includes Viserys. Again, if Martin was deliberately being evasive he was doing so in a way that was very out of character.

And again, you're speculating.

Martin specifically said that if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey it. Ergo Rhaegar has the authority to give the order they were following.

And remember when Barristan took off into the Dothraki Sea after Dany because all of his other duties were superseded by physically protecting her? Neither do I...

But because I'm interested to include you in the earlier thought exercise of AM's (which I actually thought was very insightful), assuming for a moment that I'm right and the KG remained at the ToJ because they were still obeying Rhaegar's order to stay, how do you think Martin's response to the question would have been different. I've answered how I think it would differ if you were right, but I'm curious as to what you think.

Shaw: "Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?"

Martin: "_____________________________"

Fill in the blank. If I were right, what would he say?

Try almost land when flying a plane, a huge difference.

Including Viserys or old auntie Emma doesn't matter in the least, what matters is if there is king in their number. And excuse me but how is GRRM evasive out of character?

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar's order would trump an order from a higher authority, the king? Or rather that they would follow Rhaegar's order in the absence of a countermanding order from Aerys, who wasn't there and thus couldn't affect how Rhaegar chose to assign the KG?

Barristan has a different problem that the three KG: he doesn't know where Dany is, and he might as well spend the rest of his life on the Dothraki sea looking for her in vain.

As for your question: if you are right, he should say that the KG's first duty is to obey orders.

[Lazy Lion]

Just one point, as I answered the others above.

2. Jaime says he's a Kingsguard and Darry says, "Then guard the king." The first duty, obviously.

Darry was being clever with his phrasing. The very next thing he says is that Jaime promised to obey.

So Rhaegar gave him a certain order, and he was expected to do that. Sounds familiar... :cool4:

[mambru]

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

That shows that Jaime stayed because Aerys ordered him specifically to stay and guard him.

Jaime says he's a Kingsguard and Darry says, "Then guard the king." The first duty, obviously.

You left out the rest of the sentence: “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Aerys has ordered Jaime to stay, and he is supposed to obey.

So if you think that the TOJ3 only fought and died because they thought Jon was the king - who do you think Jon's regent was whose orders they were obeying in trying to kill his uncle, Lyanna's brother? Do tell.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I don't think I've ever seen an interview or panel with GRRM where he wasn't evasive. People constantly ask him about unresolved mysteries and he's gotten very good at giving non answers over the years. That's why SSMs aren't good for much more than clarifying minor things.

[Cripper]

That power rested with Viserys, not with Rhaegar, once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead

Viserys was eight years old the power would have rested with whoever controlled him. If Jon were the new King Ser Gerold as a member of the previous Kings small council would be his acting Regent

If the three KG at the TOJ were getting news about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon surely they could have sent a message to Dragonstone informing the Queen, Targaryen Fleet and garrison if a new heir for House Targaryen had been born.

"The king is dead, long live the king."

In actuality Robert Baratheon is now the king occupying the Iron Throne so if the KG are following their vows they should return to King's Landing and protect him

[Lilly Snow]

I find it incredible odd that all 3 of the Kingsguard are guarding the mistress and bastard of a dead prince, including their Lord Commander. Atleast one of them should have gone to Viserys. Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna and Jon, but it is not like they couldn't have done their "first duty" while following Rhaegar's orders as well. There were 3 of them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Viserys was eight years old the power would have rested with whoever controlled him. If Jon were the new King Ser Gerold as a member of the previous Kings small council would be his acting Regent

If the three KG at the TOJ were getting news about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon surely they could have sent a message to Dragonstone informing the Queen, Targaryen Fleet and garrison if a new heir for House Targaryen had been born.

In actuality Robert Baratheon is now the king occupying the Iron Throne so if the KG are following their vows they should return to King's Landing and protect him

1. Send a message how, exactly? With what?

2. The Kingsguard there don't recognize Robert as their king. Which is obvious if you paid any attention at all to the dialogue. They're still Targaryen loyalists.

That shows that Jaime stayed because Aerys ordered him specifically to stay and guard him.

You left out the rest of the sentence: “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Aerys has ordered Jaime to stay, and he is supposed to obey.

So if you think that the TOJ3 only fought and died because they thought Jon was the king - who do you think Jon's regent was whose orders they were obeying in trying to kill his uncle, Lyanna's brother? Do tell.

Yes, and? It also shows that at least one of the Kingsguard has to be with the king at all times.

It's not just to obey. It's to protect and obey. By fighting Ned and his men, the KG thought they were protecting their king.

[Ygrain]

That shows that Jaime stayed because Aerys ordered him specifically to stay and guard him.

That doesn't show why Jaime thought that someone had to replace him when there were knights of the household etc to do the job.

So if you think that the TOJ3 only fought and died because they thought Jon was the king - who do you think Jon's regent was whose orders they were obeying in trying to kill his uncle, Lyanna's brother? Do tell.

Where does it say that there had to be a Regent established? And, if the Regent's orders put the king at risk, what were they supposed to do?

If the three KG at the TOJ were getting news about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon surely they could have sent a message to Dragonstone informing the Queen, Targaryen Fleet and garrison if a new heir for House Targaryen had been born.

And they would get a raven trained for Dragonstone how? Or do you think they kept messengers at hand?

In actuality Robert Baratheon is now the king occupying the Iron Throne so if the KG are following their vows they should return to King's Landing and protect him

Oaths of fealty are sworn to a House, not office.

I find it incredible odd that all 3 of the Kingsguard are guarding the mistress and bastard of a dead prince, including their Lord Commander. Atleast one of them should have gone to Viserys. Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna and Jon, but it is not like they couldn't have done their "first duty" while following Rhaegar's orders as well. There were 3 of them.

This we all wonder, as well. - Alright, some of us.

[Lazy Lion]

Try almost land when flying a plane, a huge difference.

Try landing a plane on almost exactly the same place. Not much difference...

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar's order would trump an order from a higher authority, the king? Or rather that they would follow Rhaegar's order in the absence of a countermanding order from Aerys, who wasn't there and thus couldn't affect how Rhaegar chose to assign the KG?

I'm saying that Rhaegar's orders were given the same weight as if they had been given by the king, except in the event that orders actually were given by the king. Rhaegar was the military commander, and like the Hand "spoke with the King's voice." Aerys (and later Viserys, presumably) obviously could have countermanded any of Rhaegar's orders. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this happened?

As for your question: if you are right, he should say that the KG's first duty is to obey orders.

That would probably have cleared it up.

But then Martin might have felt that "The KG protect the king, but they have to follow orders and don't get to make up new ones by themselves" covered that. Or he might have liked the idea of some ambiguity. Martin likes giving half-answers, not non-answers.

I find it incredible odd that all 3 of the Kingsguard are guarding the mistress and bastard of a dead prince, including their Lord Commander. Atleast one of them should have gone to Viserys. Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna and Jon, but it is not like they couldn't have done their "first duty" while following Rhaegar's orders as well. There were 3 of them.

If AM and Ygrain are correct, you would be right. One could have gone to Dragonstone while the other 2 protected Lyanna and the baby they hoped would be king, but wasn't born yet.

But if Rhaegar had ordered all three of them to stay at the ToJ, they are bound to obey. All three being at the ToJ makes more sense if they were ordered to stay there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If AM and Ygrain are correct, you would be right. One could have gone to Dragonstone while the other 2 protected Lyanna and the baby they hoped would be king, but wasn't born yet.

But if Rhaegar had ordered all three of them to stay at the ToJ, they are bound to obey. All three being at the ToJ makes more sense if they were ordered to stay there.

It also makes more sense if they were ordered to stay there and then, due to Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dying, Jon ended up being the king.

NO ONE is saying that Rhaegar didn't order them to stay there. I cannot emphasize this enough. What we are saying is that those orders are insufficient to keep them there if Viserys is the king. Because that completely undermines the one overarching point of this order's existence: protecting the king.

[mambru]

Where does it say that there had to be a Regent established?

Regents are established to give orders in place of minors - who are by legal definition incompetent to give them. (And in Jon's case literally incompetent, because he hasn't learned to talk yet.)

And, if the Regent's orders put the king at risk, what were they supposed to do?

Is your answer that they should go rogue, and do what THEY think best? The Regent acts in the king's name, it is as if it were the King's orders. And if the King - or his Regent - decides they want to make a potentially risky move, it is not the KG's place to shove them aside regardless of what the ruler wants - we've seen that with Barristan, Robert and the boar, as well as other places - their job is to help the king do it, regardless of whether they think it won't work.

So because Jon is a newborn, there HAS to be someone making decisions on his behalf. For the KG to decide to disregard Lyanna's wishes in the matter - the king's mother - and try to kill her brother anyway, it's like they've decided to name themselves his regent and make their own decisions in HIS name, which is an usurpation of power - when the KG by definition is supposed to obey.

[Lilly Snow]

@Lazy Lion: Perhaps, but if that was the case Rhaegar's orders go directly against their primary duty of protecting the King. In which case shouldn't they be feeling guilty of not being there for Viserys when he truly needs them and are stuck guarding a mistress and a bastard of no consequence? Yet they say things like "We swore a vow" "The Kingsguard doesn't flee". They seem to take pride in being there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Lazy Lion: Perhaps, but if that was the case Rhaegar's orders go directly against their primary duty of protecting the King. In which case shouldn't they be feeling guilty of not being there for Viserys when he truly needs them and are stuck guarding a mistress and a bastard of no consequence? Yet they say things like "We swore a vow" "The Kingsguard doesn't flee". They seem to take pride in being there.

Exactly. If Viserys was the king and they weren't with him or en route to him, they would be in dereliction of their vows as KINGSguard. But they seem to think they're not. Meaning, Viserys probably isn't actually the king.

[Lazy Lion]

It also makes more sense if they were ordered to stay there and then, due to Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dying, Jon ended up being the king.

How? Jon wasn't born yet, and the rest of the royal family was on Dragonstone, under assault. Hightower could have stayed at the ToJ and sent the other two to Dragonstone...or kept Dayne with him and sent Whent to Dragonstone. That way the king is still protected, and yet the rest of the royal family also has a KG escort.

Moreover Jon wasn't born yet. He was not the king. At best he was the presumptive King, assuming he survives childbirth, and assuming he is male. Until Jon was born, Viserys was technically king.

NO ONE is saying that Rhaegar didn't order them to stay there. I cannot emphasize this enough. What we are saying is that those orders are insufficient to keep them there if Viserys is the king. Because that completely undermines the one overarching point of this order's existence: protecting the king.

And what I'm saying is that, as Martin directly stated, the KG do not get to decide which orders are or are not "sufficient." I cannot emphasize that enough. Rhaegar says stay, so they stay. Rhaegar didn't say "stay unless I die" or "stay unless Viserys doesn't have a KG nearby." Rhaegar said stay, so they stayed. Period.

When Jaime called a meeting in SoS, there was not a KG with King Tommen. There was a protocol for ensuring that a King was sufficiently protected when there were no KG with him. "There must be a KG with the King at all times" is not true. We know that it's not true. We can dispense with pretending that it is true. Darry was on Dragonstone with Viserys, and the 3 KG were ordered to stay at the ToJ. So they stayed.

Going to the ToJ in the first place was at odds with their duty to protect the King. They did it anyway. Maybe because they felt Aerys was sufficiently protected by the other 4 KG, but certainly because Rhaegar ordered them to.

Standing aside when Robert fought the boar was against Barristan's duty to protect the king. But he did it anyway, because Robert ordered him to.

When Aerys savaged his wife, Hightower didn't step in and protect her. When Aerys burned Rickard Stark and strangled Brandon, Hightower stood and watched without objection, knowing it would likely lead to war. And Martin says that the KG don't get to choose which orders to follow.

And yet you would have us believe that this man, this paragon of duty and obedience, would take it upon himself to decide that Rhaegar's orders don't count anymore, so I'm off to do something else?

I repeat: Rhaegar told the KG to stay, so they stayed. They didn't split up and defend both Lyanna and Viserys, because Rhaegar told them to stay. They didn't abandon the ToJ and head to Dragonstone. They weren't allowed to take that kind of initiative. They were given an order, so they did that. They can't decide they don't like the orders, or that the orders aren't important, or that they don't matter anymore. They are Kingsguard. They obey.

[mambru]

Perhaps, but if that was the case Rhaegar's orders go directly against their primary duty of protecting the King. In which case shouldn't they be feeling guilty of not being there for Viserys when he truly needs them and are stuck guarding a mistress and a bastard of no consequence? Yet they say things like "We swore a vow" "The Kingsguard doesn't flee". They seem to take pride in being there.

Heck, if they weren't ashamed to obediently stand there watching Aerys burn innocent people alive, I don't think there's any orders they'd be ashamed of obeying as long as they could justify it by the rules of their vow. If they had any compassion left in their hearts at all, protecting a royal mistress and bastard after protecting Aerys the Sadistic Bastard would be a welcome relief.

Also, this:

They were given an order, so they did that. They can't decide they don't like the orders, or that the orders aren't important, or that they don't matter anymore. They are Kingsguard. They obey.

If the King is Jon, his Regent has the authority on the king's behalf to decide to parley with the enemy instead of do battle, to go into hiding with his Stark family, or even to abdicate. It is not the place of the KG to question such decisions. To decide that the king's mother has no authority and that THEY should take over the decision-making is a violation of the KG order to obey - it's them deciding to make themselves Regents, when they are not the royal family.

[Lilly Snow]

@mambru: But watching Aerys burn people alive doesn't go against their primary duty of protecting the king. In fact Gerold Hightower tells Jaime: "You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him."

[Lilly Snow]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jon already born by the time Ned reached the Tower of joy? The Kingsguard were protecting both Lyanna and Jon. So it would make sense for them to stay there if Jon was the king.

I think this quote is very telling:

"We swore a vow"

Especially if you consider that it was said by the Lord Commander of the kingsguard himself, who had told another kingsguard member that:

"You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him."

[J. Stargaryen]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jon already born by the time Ned reached the Tower of joy? The Kingsguard were protecting both Lyanna and Jon. So it would make sense for them to stay there if Jon was the king.

I think this quote is very telling:

"We swore a vow"

Especially if you consider that it was said by the Lord Commander of the kingsguard himself, who had told another kingsguard member that:

"You swore a vow to guard the king, not judge him."

Good catch! And yes, Jon was most likely already born by the time Ned got there. Lyanna didn't die in child birth, but from a fever.

[Lazy Lion]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jon already born by the time Ned reached the Tower of joy? The Kingsguard were protecting both Lyanna and Jon. So it would make sense for them to stay there if Jon was the king.

We don't know if Jon was born yet. The best evidence we have is Ned's fever dream, which describes Lyanna screaming in the tower above the combatants and describes Lyanna as lying on a "bed of blood."

As for the "swore a vow" line, I remind you of what Darry told Jaime: "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." The reference to a vow is not conclusive of anything.

Lyanna didn't die in child birth, but from a fever.

If Lyanna died in childbirth (or from complications thereof), we would expect her to be running a fever.