Small Questions v 10018

[Lost Melnibonean]

More like Rhaegal, Viserion and drogon.

Rhaegal is green and Drogon is black but Viserion is white.

[RumHam]

I know. But for some reason, I see 3000 years as an odd date, because that seems most likely an andal date.

As Martin has said, The timeline >300 years ago is blurry at best. I could see the age of 3,000 years being based on some bullshit maesterly appraisal done only one or two hundred years ago.

[RumHam]

Rhaegal is green and Drogon is black but Viserion is white.

You had to play the dragon race card didn't you.

[Lost Melnibonean]

You had to play the dragon race card didn't you.

Ha! Clever.

[Sansa_Stark]

As Martin has said, The timeline >300 years ago is blurry at best. I could see the age of 3,000 years being based on some bullshit maesterly appraisal done only one or two hundred years ago.

I'm aware of this.

But my point stands that it seems odd that there are no written record of dragons during andal periods.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Death_of_Dragons

I know its lolwiki, but this book was written in the time of targs and I can't find any proof that dragons existed in the days of andals when we know they existed in Westeros at one point.

If dragons existed in those days and then sure they must have come into contact with humans. Its logical. But I wonder why there are no written records of dragons. Just laughably unreliable stories like Serwyn who was probably based off the age of the first men

[RumHam]

I'm aware of this.

But my point stands that it seems odd that there are no written record of dragons during andal periods.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Death_of_Dragons

I know its lolwiki, but this book was written in the time of targs and I can't find any proof that dragons existed in the days of andals when we know they existed in Westeros at one point.

If dragons existed in those days and then sure they must have come into contact with humans. Its logical. But I wonder why there are no written records of dragons. Just laughably unreliable stories like Serwyn who was probably based off the age of the first men

Martin did say that there "were dragons all over, once." You have to keep in mind that the arrival of men in Westeros was relatively recent in terms of the age of the planet. Valyria was "the last ember" of magic that remained. There may have been a time when dragons flew everywhere, but it's clear that by the founding of Valyria the dragons were gone or at least rare. They had to be "discovered" in the fourteen flames. It's not surprising that there were no dragons in Westeros during the time of The Andals. People have speculated that the Valyrians avoided Westeros because they feared skinchangers.

Edit: as for Serwyn, there is no evidence in the books that he was anything other thank a knight of the Kingsguard who lived in the last ~300 years. Apparently Martin has said he was a figure from the age of heros, but Martin has also said that nothing is cannon until it appears in the books.

[corbon]

I'm aware of this.

But my point stands that it seems odd that there are no written record of dragons during andal periods.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Death_of_Dragons

I know its lolwiki, but this book was written in the time of targs and I can't find any proof that dragons existed in the days of andals when we know they existed in Westeros at one point.

If dragons existed in those days and then sure they must have come into contact with humans. Its logical. But I wonder why there are no written records of dragons. Just laughably unreliable stories like Serwyn who was probably based off the age of the first men

Its a Targaryen dragon though, not an Andal one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

For all the discussion regarding my question about the 3000 year old dragon skul, here's the scene from the book (which I wasn't able to post yesterday, since I posted from my phone)

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King’s Landing for his sister’s wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen’s throne room. King Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where they had been stored.
He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He’d thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast’s empty eye sockets had watched him go.
There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiffs skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long.

I find it strange that, if the Targaryens brought a skull with them from Valyria, that they olny have 19 skulls. The youngest skull obviously refers to the last dragon, which died during the reign of Aegon the Dragonbane (131 - 157 AL).

We know of many dragons (though some are not yet officially released, we'll have to wait 12 days for that). I'll list them:

Balerion

Vhagar

Meraxes

Silverwing

Syrax

Quicksilver

Vermax
Arrax
Tyraxes
Seasmoke
Caraxes
Moondancer
Stormdancer
Meleys the Red Queen
Sunfyre
Morghul
Schrykos
Tessarion the Blue Queen
Dreamfyre

That's already 19 dragons.

I also read somewhere there was a dragon named

Sheep Stealer

Balerion was older than Meraxes and Vhagar, and he died during Jaehaerys' reign, about 200 years old.

Meraxes was probably older than Vhagar (at the time they both lived) since Meraxes' skull was bigger than Vhagar's skull.

Vhagar lived until

the Dance

, Meraxes died together with Queen Rhaenys, but it is unknown when.

I can imagine not every dragon who died during the Dance had a complete skull at the time of his death. It were brutal battles, and with dragon against dragon, I can imagine not every dragon skeleton could be found, for instance, if they perhaps died at sea. If the Targaryens kept the skulls of all their dragons, where does the 3000 year old skull come from?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where does it say Balerion's teeth are as large as swords in canon?

I see it on the wiki but can't find iti in the books.

Perhaps I found something.

Arya got to her feet, moving warily. The heads were all around her. She touched one, curious, wondering if it was real. Her fingertips brushed a massive jaw. It felt real enough. The bone was smooth beneath her hand, cold and hard to the touch. She ran her fingers down a tooth, black and sharp, a dagger made of darkness. It made her shiver.

"It’s dead," she said aloud. "It’s just a skull, it can’t hurt me." Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh. Arya whirled, felt leather catch and tear as a huge fang nipped at her jerkin, and then she was running. Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not even slow. She leapt over a ridge of black teeth as tall as swords, dashed through hungry jaws, and threw herself against the door.

Perhaps whoever edited the Balerion page on the wiki, thought that, since Balerion was the biggest dragon, this must have been his skull.

Though I'm not sure if Balerion was the biggest dragon the Targaryens ever owned (and I mean not only on Dragonstone or KL, but als on Valyria), but he most certainly was the biggest dragon the Targaryens ever owned from Aegon the Conqueror onwards.

I think this is where the info came from though. :)

[Sansa_Stark]

Perhaps I found something.

Perhaps whoever edited the Balerion page on the wiki, thought that, since Balerion was the biggest dragon, this must have been his skull.

Though I'm not sure if Balerion was the biggest dragon the Targaryens ever owned (and I mean not only on Dragonstone or KL, but als on Valyria), but he most certainly was the biggest dragon the Targaryens ever owned from Aegon the Conqueror onwards.

I think this is where the info came from though. :)

Thanks.

If Arya is looking at the same dragonbones as Tyrion did, then I think they might be Balerion's.

"From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old."

s, where does the 3000 year old skull come from?

The Valyrian empire was thousands of years old. Its entirely possible that the 3000 year old skull was one of the first dragons House Targaryen ever owned.

Martin did say that there "were dragons all over, once." You have to keep in mind that the arrival of men in Westeros was relatively recent in terms of the age of the planet. Valyria was "the last ember" of magic that remained. There may have been a time when dragons flew everywhere, but it's clear that by the founding of Valyria the dragons were gone or at least rare. They had to be "discovered" in the fourteen flames. It's not surprising that there were no dragons in Westeros during the time of The Andals. People have speculated that the Valyrians avoided Westeros because they feared skinchangers.

Edit: as for Serwyn, there is no evidence in the books that he was anything other thank a knight of the Kingsguard who lived in the last ~300 years. Apparently Martin has said he was a figure from the age of heros, but Martin has also said that nothing is cannon until it appears in the books.

Its a Targaryen dragon though, not an Andal one.

Hmm?

My argument was that I found it unlikely that andals and dragons coexisted in Westeros until the Targaryens came.

We don't see any proof or records that they coexisted together, the only book we know of that states of killing dragons was during the Targaryen reign. If the andals wiped out the dragons, wouldn't there at least be some more books written about methods? If there is another book, then I'm wrong, but we don't know of one do we?

I'm not saying its definite proof, just an oddity.

I'm one of those who believe the Long Night wiped out all the dragons(save for the ones living in the 14 fires). There were dragons all over, they had to go somewhere.

[therustman]

Greetings,

In GoT, Catelyn 1 I think, when she and Ned are in the Godswood, Ned mentions he hasn't seen the 7 year old Tommen since he was breast feeding. However, next chapter (Ned 1? sorry not got my books) he says he hasn't seen Robert since the Greyjoy rebellion 9 years prior.

Do we know when Ned would have seen baby Tomen without Robert? Or is this just a typo?

Cheers

[Lost Melnibonean]

For all the discussion regarding my question about the 3000 year old dragon skul, here's the scene from the book (which I wasn't able to post yesterday, since I posted from my phone)

I find it strange that, if the Targaryens brought a skull with them from Valyria, that they olny have 19 skulls. The youngest skull obviously refers to the last dragon, which died during the reign of Aegon the Dragonbane (131 - 157 AL).

We know of many dragons (though some are not yet officially released, we'll have to wait 12 days for that). I'll list them:

Balerion

Vhagar

Meraxes

Silverwing

Syrax

Quicksilver

Vermax

Arrax

Tyraxes

Seasmoke

Caraxes

Moondancer

Stormdancer

Meleys the Red Queen

Sunfyre

Morghul

Schrykos

Tessarion the Blue Queen

Dreamfyre

That's already 19 dragons.

I also read somewhere there was a dragon named

Sheep Stealer

Balerion was older than Meraxes and Vhagar, and he died during Jaehaerys' reign, about 200 years old.

Meraxes was probably older than Vhagar (at the time they both lived) since Meraxes' skull was bigger than Vhagar's skull.

Vhagar lived until

the Dance

, Meraxes died together with Queen Rhaenys, but it is unknown when.

I can imagine not every dragon who died during the Dance had a complete skull at the time of his death. It were brutal battles, and with dragon against dragon, I can imagine not every dragon skeleton could be found, for instance, if they perhaps died at sea. If the Targaryens kept the skulls of all their dragons, where does the 3000 year old skull come from?

It was probably in one of the chests Sandor use to hump 30,000 gold coins around the Riverlands. Or it might have been found in thesame space-time sinkhole where Cat encountered Lord Mallister on the King's Road near the Crossroads Inn. Another possibility would be the dock apparently inside the walls of King's Landing where Arya found the Wind Witch.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Greetings,

In GoT, Catelyn 1 I think, when she and Ned are in the Godswood, Ned mentions he hasn't seen the 7 year old Tommen since he was breast feeding. However, next chapter (Ned 1? sorry not got my books) he says he hasn't seen Robert since the Greyjoy rebellion 9 years prior.

Do we know when Ned would have seen baby Tomen without Robert? Or is this just a typo?

Cheers

Cersei, Jaimie, Cat and Ned got together for a swingin party at the Crossroads Inn. Perhaps the Ned had some business at Casterly Rock and saw Cersei. Or perhaps they both attended a wedding. Or perhaps Ned had some business in King's Landing and Robert was away.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

According to the wiki, it should be in aGoT, but I couldn't find it. I'll continue the search for you tomorrow.

In the meantime, I did find there had been 19 Targaryens skulls in KL, Tyrion saw them. He mentions the eldest one was 3000 years old.

We know Balerion was the oldest dragon. Was he really 3000 years old, or did Aegon and his sisters bring dragon skulls with them that were even older?

Arya mentions something about Needle looking small beside the skull. Maybe thats it

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Arya mentions something about Needle looking small beside the skull. Maybe thats it

It's probably this:

Arya got to her feet, moving warily. The heads were all around her. She touched one, curious, wondering if it was real. Her fingertips brushed a massive jaw. It felt real enough. The bone was smooth beneath her hand, cold and hard to the touch. She ran her fingers down a tooth, black and sharp, a dagger made of darkness. It made her shiver.

"It’s dead," she said aloud. "It’s just a skull, it can’t hurt me." Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh. Arya whirled, felt leather catch and tear as a huge fang nipped at her jerkin, and then she was running. Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not even slow. She leapt over a ridge of black teeth as tall as swords, dashed through hungry jaws, and threw herself against the door.

The biggest monster of all would refer to Balerion, who was known to be bigger at least that Meraxes and Vhagar, and I think Tyrion would have mentioned if there had been a dragon even bigger than the Black Dread.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Could there be a link between Varys and Illyrio meeting in the Red Keep's dungeons, and Jaqen, a Faceless Man planted in the black cells ? I was just wondering why did Varys and Illyrio meet in this particular place.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Could there be a link between Varys and Illyrio meeting in the Red Keep's dungeons, and Jaqen, a Faceless Man planted in the black cells ? I was just wondering why did Varys and Illyrio meet in this particular place.

Because they needed to be overheard by Arya.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Could there be a link between Varys and Illyrio meeting in the Red Keep's dungeons, and Jaqen, a Faceless Man planted in the black cells ? I was just wondering why did Varys and Illyrio meet in this particular place.

They made use of secret passages, so no one would see Illyrio. The secret passage they used, ended in the same dungeons Arya was hiding in.

About Jaqen and the possible link between Varys are several theories to find on the forum, but so far, there has been no evidence they knew each other.

[Mychel_Redfort]

They made use of secret passages, so no one would see Illyrio. The secret passage they used, ended in the same dungeons Arya was hiding in.

OK, I didn't catch the secret passage for a way for Illyrio to come unseen. Thanks !

[DaarioKnowsBest]

When is it revealed that Roose switches sides on Robb?

Was it before Arya sees them at Harrenhal.

Because I didn't realize that's what happened until much later, I didn't even realize he was at the RW