Did Oberyn Martell die on purpose?

[Rahgh Neqaj]

Did he have a chance to survive that fight? Only if one of them yielded and neither Gregor Clegane nor Oberyn Martell are yielders. He wanted Gregor Clegane to die slowly, in agonizing pain or else he would have taken a poison that kills quicker. Pycelle even suggests that he modified the poison so that the death of Gregor is slower, more painful. So for Gregor to die slowly, Oberyn had to loose the duel.

Bonus of loosing: Tyrion is convicted and Tywin does learn what it feels like to loose a child. And wasn't it Tyrion who promised Gregor's head to Dorne but didn't deliver? And Tywin was possibly poisoned already by Oberyn as the OP mentioned. By dying in the duel, he even opened another option for Doran: Of course Dorne isn't going to be happy about Oberyn's death but Doran can, if he wants, declare that revenge has been had once Gregor (and Tywin) is (are) dead and declare that Oberyn's death in the duel was 1) fair and noble and 2) Oberyn's own affair, not Dorne's. It wouldn't have been easy to swallow for the Sandsnakes and their friends but in the end, with the correct spin, state reason would have prevailed. Alternatively, if more suitable to his plans, Doran could have asked for more revenge and used it as a spark to raise his banners.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Did he have a chance to survive that fight?

Is this a joke? Have you read the fight scene? The only reason Oberyn didn't survive is because he got cocky. Gregor was poisoned, had half a spear snapped off in his belly, and numerous stab/puncture wounds in very dangerous places, like under the arm etc. I just can't fathom how this is even debatable. :dunno:

[Rahgh Neqaj]

Is this a joke? Have you read the fight scene? The only reason Oberyn didn't survive is because he got cocky. Gregor was poisoned, had half a spear snapped off in his belly, and numerous stab/puncture wounds in very dangerous places, like under the arm etc. I just can't fathom how this is even debatable. :dunno:

No, no joke. Of course I read the fight scene and of course he was the better fighter. But could he end the duel alive AND achieve his goal of a slow, painful death for Gregor? NO! Neither Gregor nor Oberyn are yielders (or fainters) which means one person had to die. And if Gregor is to die slowly, then Oberyn has to die in order for the duel to end. His cockiness was just a show to cover up deliberate suicide.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't think he wanted to die, but he kinda expected he could die in his vendetta. His objective was to make the Mountain confesses his crimes and to tell to everyone who was the one who ordered it (Tywin)

[kiasyd]

As an accomplished warrior, I'm sure he was prepared to die and planned accordingly - as you said, by guaranteeing that both Tywin and Gregor were properly poisoned, but I don't think his death was a goal.

[Ramsay B.]

The poisoning of his spear was just a safety measure in case Oberyn did lose the duel. He let his emotions get the best of him and made a ridiculous mistake. I don't see a deliberate suicide, at all. And, of course, he's gonna use poison that would make Gregor die with the most pain imaginable but that proves nothing.

[Rahgh Neqaj]

I don't think he wanted to die, but he kinda expected he could die in his vendetta. His objective was to make the Mountain confesses his crimes and to tell to everyone who was the one who ordered it (Tywin)

No, I wouldn't say that he wanted to die but that he saw his death as his only option to achieve his goals and was willing to 'pay the price' as the saying goes.

The poisoning of his spear was just a safety measure in case Oberyn did lose the duel. He let his emotions get the best of him and made a ridiculous mistake. I don't see a deliberate suicide, at all. And, of course, he's gonna use poison that would make Gregor die with the most pain imaginable but that proves nothing.

If the poison was just a safety measure, a plan B, Oberyn would have used an off-the-shelf poison. Instead he used something that was crafted on purpose:

"Ser Gregor." Qyburn shrugged. "I have examined him, as you commanded. The poison on the Viper's spear was manticore venom from the east, I would stake my life on that."

"Pycelle says no. He told my father that manticore venom kills the instant it reaches the heart."

"And so it does. But this venom has been thickened somehow, so as to draw out the Mountain's dying."

"Thickened? Thickened how? With some other substance?"

"It may be as Your Grace suggests, though in most cases adulterating a poison only lessens its potency. It may be that the cause is ... less natural, let us say. A spell, I think."

Is this one as big a fool as Pycelle? "So are you telling me that the Mountain is dying of some black sorcery?"

Qyburn ignored the mockery in her voice. "He is dying of the venom, but slowly, and in exquisite agony. My efforts to ease his pain have proved as fruitless as Pycelle's. Ser Gregor is overly accustomed to the poppy, I fear. [...] Be that as it may, his veins have turned black from head to heel, his water is clouded with pus, and the venom has eaten a hole in his side as large as my fist. It is a wonder that the man is still alive, if truth be told."

Qyburn suggests that magic was used to modify the poison and based on the symptoms, I would assume it to be true. But we know that magic was extremely rare and weak before Dany's dragons hatched and it's only slowly getting stronger. A lot of magical knowledge has been lost/forgotten and needs relearning, especially in Westeros. So Oberyn had access to an extremely valuable resource - magic - and uses it as a backup?

Upon rereading Qyburns description of the symptoms, I would suggest something else: Oberyn wanted Gregor to suffer extremely and ultimately to die. But he didn't want to kill Gregor himself, he only wanted to force the Lannisters to kill him. Cersei is so pissed off by his screaming that she wants to send Ser Ilyn to "tend to him". Tywin and Kevan would probably have sent someone to give him the gift of mercy. Oberyn wanted Gregor to die but he wanted Gregor to die by the hands of a Lannister. That is why the poisoned has been sickened: It causes extreme pain and slowly destroys the body but at the same time keeps Gregor alive. Quite possibly, the "thickened" is actually some form of life-prolonging magic (necromancy maybe? certainly no healing) that is carefully balanced to let the poison destroy Gregors body without killing him. Qyburn may even have learned a trick or two from the poison in order to animate Robert Strong.

----

ETA: The last paragraph is veering off into crackpot territory, I know. But that doesn't change the fact that such an expensive poison would never have been a plan B.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

No, no joke. Of course I read the fight scene and of course he was the better fighter. But could he end the duel alive AND achieve his goal of a slow, painful death for Gregor? NO!

Um, if a slow painful death was Oberyns "goal", why was he standing over Gregor about to kill him quickly with a sword? Can't believe anyone believes this rubbish.

[Bronn Urgandy]

As a side note, why do we never hear about Oberyn's bastard sons ? Does he not care for them ? Or was he simply ridiculously lucky in that he gave birth to 8 daughters ?

My light knowledge of the subject is that some men do only father single sexed children, not saying Oberyn doesn't have boys, butI cant imagine he would ignore them. Unless of course, his sisters death hit him so hard he feels the urge to protect all females in his family.

I can't see Oberyn deliberately losing though, that means it goes down in history as; Clegane defeats Martell. Does it not look totally wrong for Oberyn to be okay with that?

[BitsOfBrains]

Um, if a slow painful death was Oberyns "goal", why was he standing over Gregor about to kill him quickly with a sword? Can't believe anyone believes this rubbish.

Because the duel doesn't end until someone is dead.

He either has to

1. Kill Gregor clean

2. Let Gregor kill him and then Gregor dies in "exquisite agony".

I think the better question was why would Oberyn make himself so vulnerable when he had no need to in order to win.

The, "he just got cocky" theory is the only other one I can see, but I just think the man is too hardcore to accidentally let something like that happen.

[Ser Greg of House House]

My opinion, people have posted it already, but just for the record:

1) Before the duel, I believe he did consider it OK to die if he managed to poison Gregor first

2) At that moment, no, he didn't want to die

So he knew the risks, but plan A was to get out alive

[Slavers Bay City Rollers]

Yes. The idea was to throw himself at the enemy in a way that Doran wasn't. It was a war prayer he hoped would inspire others to follow his example, but more importantly his death during the fight meant a slow torturous death by poison for his most hated enemy. He didn't want to "win" because that'd mean a quick death for Gregor. He had to lose in order for Gregor to suffer the full measure of what the poison could do to him. It was on purpose. The Red Viper didn't care for us or our aspirations for him. He got what he wanted out of that embassadorial visit.

I would say that the poison was his back up plan not his plan A.

[EstEst]

My opinion, people have posted it already, but just for the record:

1) Before the duel, I believe he did consider it OK to die if he managed to poison Gregor first

2) At that moment, no, he didn't want to die

So he knew the risks, but plan A was to get out alive

I would say that the poison was his back up plan not his plan A.

:agree:

[Draco_Dracul]

Oberyn made it clear that he didn't just want the killer, but the man who gave the order.

According to the theory in the OP, he already gotten the man that gave the order and the only reason that Tywin did not die by his hand is that crossbows are quicker than poison.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Is it certain that in a duel one has to die? If Oberyn was able to knock Gregor out or severely wound him, couldn't he be "merciful"?

[Iona]

I think it's important to remember that the opportunity to fight Clegane only became possible after some unexpected turn of events. Oberyn came to KL seeking the justice that was promised, but the Lannisters kept tip-toeing around the issue and it was obvious he would not be given the Mountain's head on a silver platter even if he asked nicely.

Tyrion's trial, and more precisely his trial by combat was a strike of luck, a window of opportunity that might never open again, so Oberyn seized it. Yes, he had probably done his homework before he took off from Dorne and had a handy travel-size poison pack with him. Oberyn had his back-up plan, the poisoned spear, so in the worst case scenario he might be able to die knowing that Gregor would later follow.

OP speculated on whether Oberyn's words about coming to haunt the Mountain if he did not say the names of Elia and her children meant that Oberyn was intent on dying no matter what. I felt that it showed that Oberyn had a clear goal - not just to kill Gregor, but to squeeze out a confession no matter what.

Ser Gregor tried to rise, The broken spear had gone through him, and was pinning him to the ground. He wrapped both hands about the shaft, grunting, but could not pull it out. Beneath him was a spreading pool of red. “I am feeling more innocent by the instant,” Tyrion told Ellaria Sand beside him.

Prince Oberyn moved closer. “Say the name!” He put a foot on the Mountain’s chest and raised the greatsword with both hands. Whether he intended to hack off Gregor’s head or shove the point through his eyeslit was something Tyrion would never know.

I'd say that it's possible that if Gregor hadn't had that last desparate adrenaline rush in the end, it could very well be that Oberyn was prepared to draw out his enemy's dying as long as possible. He had the upper hand, the guy was already immobilized by having a spear through his belly, and must have been in horrible agony. If Obery knew that his foe was suffering from skull-breaking headaches, driving a sword through his eye slooOOoooOoowly could be just the thing needed to finally make him confess his crimes, or even to name Tywin as the instigator.

In the end, the poisoned spear might have been Oberyn's undoing - the man who fears loosing has already lost. :(

[Mithras]

I think it's important to remember that the opportunity to fight Clegane only became possible after some unexpected turn of events. Oberyn came to KL seeking the justice that was promised, but the Lannisters kept tip-toeing around the issue and it was obvious he would not be given the Mountain's head on a silver platter even if he asked nicely.

Tyrion's trial, and more precisely his trial by combat was a strike of luck, a window of opportunity that might never open again, so Oberyn seized it. Yes, he had probably done his homework before he took off from Dorne and had a handy travel-size poison pack with him. Oberyn had his back-up plan, the poisoned spear, so in the worst case scenario he might be able to die knowing that Gregor would later follow.

I dont think he ever imagined a duel with the Mountain. Tyrion's trial was sheer luck. So he either travels everywhere with his poison package or he had some sneaky intentions in coming to KL. I believe it must be the second case. There is a possibility that he poisoned Tywin and there is still a possibility that he tried to poison Joffrey too. He was thinking about crowning Myrcella in Dorne once Joffrey is dead.

[greetings mortals]

thing is about the entire thing though:

if u come to KL for revenge, why stop at the mountain and tywin?

why not kill tommen and make marcella definately the queen, thereby controlling the realm?

or just kill all the lanisters?

[LC Jaime Lannister]

Oberyn isn't the kind of man to have someone doing his killing for him. He allegedly poisoned Tywin as well as Gregor. He would not die to spark tension between the crown and Dorne. He would spark it with his spear or his tongue.

[Mad Monkey]

No, no joke. Of course I read the fight scene and of course he was the better fighter. But could he end the duel alive AND achieve his goal of a slow, painful death for Gregor? NO! Neither Gregor nor Oberyn are yielders (or fainters) which means one person had to die. And if Gregor is to die slowly, then Oberyn has to die in order for the duel to end. His cockiness was just a show to cover up deliberate suicide.

In theory, once Gregor was severely injured and on the ground dying of poison, Oberyn could have stepped back and just let him writhe in agony, preferably while delivering an epic badass monologue from way on the other side of the arena. He could even time his dramatic pauses to fall in line with Gregor's anguished screams.