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R+L=J v 65

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

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Ooh look... Pretty and new!!

And eligible to retire in the US :)

Eta: Srsly... At the end of the last thread there was discussion about the "cliche argument" and the idea that using literary topos is somehow cliched or unacceptable.

Google the phrase "there are no new ideas"... Turns out Bob Dylan said it, Audre Lord said it, Mark Twain, GK Chesterton, Plato... Poets, writers, thinkers. The Audre Lord version continues- "only new ways of making them felt"

I personally have much faith in GRRM's ability to find new ways to convey (with feeling!) the themes and ideas he chooses to employ.

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Oh, the thread has reached retirement age. Maybe we should talk about AARP instead of tPtwP. :P



How can I say this?



The whole "cliché" argument drives me crazy. I think it's said that all human stories came from just seven original tales? The reason why perhaps the same stories are told is because most tales are of the human experience and we are creatures of habit, doing the same things over with the same age-old motivations.



And if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, I'd rather a well told story, even if it's "cliché" over a badly told story with the aim to be "original, " or "new."



"There is nothing new under the sun."

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RIP, thread 64. How very fitting that your life was ended with the finest assassins... requiescat in pace.



I yet have to see the cliche argument come from someone who actually shows some literary skills, rather the contrary. Curious...


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And I have to say, cliche' as this might be, my other all-time favorite romantic tragedy is the doomed love of Uncas and Alice :frown5: in "Last of the Mohicans," a story that I loved so much that my husband and I actually walked this trail- and I almost died. :stillsick: This trail was NO joke, though the waterfall was breathtaking.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9SEFMIBwAs


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And I have to say, cliche' as this might be, my other all-time favorite romantic tragedy is the doomed love of Uncas and Alice :frown5: in "Last of the Mohicans," a story that I loved so much that my husband and I actually walked this trail- and I almost died. :stillsick: This trail was NO joke, though the waterfall was breathtaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9SEFMIBwAs

That violin (fiddle?) music from the movie can make me tear up just on its own - and yes, its because of Uncas and Alice.

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I just realised today that there have been over 26000 posts on this topic.



And that doesn't count posts made in the board's previous incarnations.



:stunned:


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And I have to say, cliche' as this might be, my other all-time favorite romantic tragedy is the doomed love of Uncas and Alice :frown5: in "Last of the Mohicans," a story that I loved so much that my husband and I actually walked this trail- and I almost died. :stillsick: This trail was NO joke, though the waterfall was breathtaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9SEFMIBwAs

I wouldn't be able to walk that trail at all, I can't stand heights.

Eh, thematically, should I mention that my favourite assassine is half-Mohawke, and taking place just a bit later? :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkBEWh5PIs

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I wouldn't be able to walk that trail at all, I can't stand heights.

Eh, thematically, should I mention that my favourite assassine is half-Mohawke, and taking place just a bit later? :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkBEWh5PIs

I agree on the heights-- couldn't do it. But I love watching it! Alia that's one of my favourite movies but I haven't seen it in years. :bawl:

Unless I'm much mistaken, the intro of AC3 takes place very close to the same time as Last of the Mohicans, though the main action is a decade or two later. Looks like it could have been inspired by that scene, same setting anyway!

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Oh, the thread has reached retirement age. Maybe we should talk about AARP instead of tPtwP. :P

How can I say this?

The whole "cliché" argument drives me crazy. I think it's said that all human stories came from just seven original tales? The reason why perhaps the same stories are told is because most tales are of the human experience and we are creatures of habit, doing the same things over with the same age-old motivations.

And if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, I'd rather a well told story, even if it's "cliché" over a badly told story with the aim to be "original, " or "new."

"There is nothing new under the sun."

I couldn't agree more. Nothing new has been invented after Gilgamesh has set in stone the meaning of the word 'epic' and Greek tragedy and comedy have filled our storage of archetypes. According to 'but-it-is-too-obvious' detractors, Shakespeare and all the giants of world literature have written anything but clichés since :rolleyes:

It's the emotion revealed by the 'dance of words' that makes the difference... and renew the wonder.

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Unless I'm much mistaken, the intro of AC3 takes place very close to the same time as Last of the Mohicans, though the main action is a decade or two later. Looks like it could have been inspired by that scene, same setting anyway!

I never checked the dates but I suppose it does, and the tragedy is there aplenty.

It's the emotion revealed by the 'dance of words' that makes the difference... and renew the wonder.

Beautifully said.

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I couldn't agree more. Nothing new has been invented after Gilgamesh has set in stone the meaning of the word 'epic' and Greek tragedy and comedy have filled our storage of archetypes. According to 'but-it-is-too-obvious' detractors, Shakespeare and all the giants of world literature have written anything but clichés since :rolleyes:

It's the emotion revealed by the 'dance of words' that makes the difference... and renew the wonder.

Absolutely. The one case I'm coming back to time and time again is Shakespeare, and particularly Romeo and Juliet. The basic plot is almost the same as that of the Pyramus et Thisbe chapter from Ovid's Metamorphoses (which probably drew from earlier sources, but it's the first version of that story that we have available today). We know that Shakespeare knew the Metamorphoses, and the Pyramus et Thisbe chapter - because Shakespeare uses the Pyramus et Thisbe story (with original names) in A Midsummer Night's Dream. So not just did Shakespeare use an already existing topos, he did so in the full knowledge of using it. So is Romeo and Juliet cliché? Well, some of the moves made out of it may be, but I still feel that all in all, the fact that Romeo and Juliet are so much more complicit in their own downfalls than Pyramus and Thisbe (the lion was just bad luck, while the simultaneous and parallel plotting by Romeo and Juliet is all kinds of heartbreaking because it's immediately clear that those two plans can't work simultaneously) makes Romeo and Juliet a piece of art in its own right - because it puts its own, modern, spin on the story: For Shakespeare, agency seems to matter more than for Ovid.

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And I have to say, cliche' as this might be, my other all-time favorite romantic tragedy is the doomed love of Uncas and Alice :frown5: in "Last of the Mohicans," a story that I loved so much that my husband and I actually walked this trail- and I almost died. :stillsick: This trail was NO joke, though the waterfall was breathtaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9SEFMIBwAs

I LOVE this movie and that is one of my favorite scenes from it! Its so beautiful and so sad. I love how there's barely any dialogue in the scene, you can just tell everything that happens through their eyes. The look that Alice give Magwa right before she jumps is so haunting!

It's also interesting that you bought this scene up because I always think of Duncan every time I read a scene about the Mad King burning someone alive. I remember seeing this movie in the theater when it first came out and I was really young and that scene really disturbed me.

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I actually walked this trail- and I almost died. :stillsick: This trail was NO joke, though the waterfall was breathtaking.

It does look really harry! I had a similar experience hiking to the top of Half Dome in Yosemite. I'd wanted to climb it since I was a little girl and one summer a friend of mine was working as a mountain guide there and took me up. It took us 7 hours to get to the summit and the last part of the climb up the dome is almost vertical in places and you have to hang on to these cables to pull yourself up. I spent the entire time on the summit unable to enjoy the view because all I could do was think how I was going to have to climb back down! It was a beautiful hike, but I don't ever need to do that again!

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It does look really harry! I had a similar experience hiking to the top of Half Dome in Yosemite. I'd wanted to climb it since I was a little girl and one summer a friend of mine was working as a mountain guide there and took me up. It took us 7 hours to get to the summit and the last part of the climb up the dome is almost vertical in places and you have to hang on to these cables to pull yourself up. I spent the entire time on the summit unable to enjoy the view because all I could do was think how I was going to have to climb back down! It was a beautiful hike, but I don't ever need to do that again!

A friend of mine who is afraid of heights, as I am, just got back from the Grand Canyon. Based on his description it sounds like a house of horrors-- gorgeous it may be but probably not worth the panic attack a minute :stillsick:

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And if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, I'd rather a well told story, even if it's "cliché" over a badly told story with the aim to be "original, " or "new."

"There is nothing new under the sun."

Yea, I don't want to be aesthetically and intellectually satisfied but instead wish to disregard storytelling logic, overlook the copious textual hints and carefully woven symbolism that bind Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon together in an effort to cry foul and render what is an extremely well-crafted development in the plot of aSoIaF as a cliche.

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Darn, new thread, maybe I should post the conversation again? Do we want things on digression or on point? ;)


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That violin (fiddle?) music from the movie can make me tear up just on its own - and yes, its because of Uncas and Alice.

I believe it's a fiddle. I have the soundtrack, (which is beautiful), and you can tell a little more clearly

without the background orchestration.

The song is actually called: "The Gael," by Dougie Maclean and sometimes called, "Promontory."

I wouldn't be able to walk that trail at all, I can't stand heights.

Eh, thematically, should I mention that my favourite assassine is half-Mohawke, and taking place just a bit later? :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkBEWh5PIs

I'm actually not fond of heights either, but I was determined to do it, lol. It was exhausting. The next time I endeavor to do something like that, I plan a months worth of working out. :stillsick:

Some of the areas were also boarded up due to falling rocks, and the film crew got permission to briefly pass through the cave.

I agree on the heights-- couldn't do it. But I love watching it! Alia that's one of my favourite movies but I haven't seen it in years. :bawl:

Unless I'm much mistaken, the intro of AC3 takes place very close to the same time as Last of the Mohicans, though the main action is a decade or two later. Looks like it could have been inspired by that scene, same setting anyway!

It's one of mine as well, just because of the idea of the sheer loneliness of being one of the last, (interesting that both the Starks and the Targaryens are in that same place as of now), and the longing to be with your "pack" again.

I LOVE this movie and that is one of my favorite scenes from it! Its so beautiful and so sad. I love how there's barely any dialogue in the scene, you can just tell everything that happens through their eyes. The look that Alice give Magwa right before she jumps is so haunting!

It's also interesting that you bought this scene up because I always think of Duncan every time I read a scene about the Mad King burning someone alive. I remember seeing this movie in the theater when it first came out and I was really young and that scene really disturbed me.

It does look really harry! I had a similar experience hiking to the top of Half Dome in Yosemite. I'd wanted to climb it since I was a little girl and one summer a friend of mine was working as a mountain guide there and took me up. It took us 7 hours to get to the summit and the last part of the climb up the dome is almost vertical in places and you have to hang on to these cables to pull yourself up. I spent the entire time on the summit unable to enjoy the view because all I could do was think how I was going to have to climb back down! It was a beautiful hike, but I don't ever need to do that again!

Good call on the scene with Duncan! :bowdown:

The trail is Chimney Rock State Park in North Carolina. You can see the rock from miles away and there is a natural step bridge up to it that I couldn't climb because it felt like you were floating, so my husband went alone while I coward at the bottom. :blushing:

We stayed in a hotel on the reservation there where they have the casinos, so it was really nice, though of course, pretty rustic.

When we were leaving, it was early morning, and I got my first ever glimpse of a wolf eating out of a trashcan, lol.

(Will PM you shortly on Rhaella). :)

I couldn't agree more. Nothing new has been invented after Gilgamesh has set in stone the meaning of the word 'epic' and Greek tragedy and comedy have filled our storage of archetypes. According to 'but-it-is-too-obvious' detractors, Shakespeare and all the giants of world literature have written anything but clichés since :rolleyes:

It's the emotion revealed by the 'dance of words' that makes the difference... and renew the wonder.

And reawakens the essence of the human heart.

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Yea, I don't want to be aesthetically and intellectually satisfied but instead wish to disregard storytelling logic, overlook the copious textual hints and carefully woven symbolism that bind Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon together in an effort to cry foul and render what is an extremely well-crafted development in the plot of aSoIaF as a cliche.

Amen.

And honestly, the reasons given as to why some don't want to see this revealed is a little creepy, as if seeing something dark, ugly and cruel is somehow more desirable, because it's more "edgy," a word I'm really growing tired of.

(Glad to see you). :cheers:

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