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R+L=J v 65


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That depends on the "theory" in question. There's a small set of "theories" that have buttloads of evidence while the countertheories failed to convince. Those few are taken as fact, yes. There's also lots of hypothesizing that doesn't lead anywhere, or leads to interesting conclusions that nevertheless might well be false. R+L=J definitely belongs to the former category: It is well-founded textually, thematically, and circumstantially (regarding what we know about GRRM and the show runners for example, or the depiction of Jon and Rhaegar in the graphic novels, or...). All counter-theories so far failed to be consistent. They often disregard the timeline or fail to explain lots of symbols, ironies and scenes - from the blue rose growing in a wall of ice and Promise me, Ned over the KG at the ToJ to lots and lots of throwaway lines about kings in Jon's chapters that become intentionally ironic the second R+L=J is accepted. Another hypothesis that wants to become a theory (i.e., taken as almost canon) would need to explain all of this at the very least while also complying with the timeline. I have yet to see one attempt that worked.

Speaking of the show, there are also those little slips of tongue, e.g. by Kit Harrington saying "Jon doesn't know who his parents are" and quickly correcting himself to "Jon doesn't know who his mother is" - a slip he wouldn't have made if he thought Jon was Ned's son.

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Speaking of the show, there are also those little slips of tongue, e.g. by Kit Harrington saying "Jon doesn't know who his parents are" and quickly correcting himself to "Jon doesn't know who his mother is" - a slip he wouldn't have made if he thought Jon was Ned's son.

And there are also lines on the show itself that definitely point to it too. "You may not have my name, but you have my blood" comes to mind.

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True enough. All I'm arguing is that assuming Bloodraven doesn't care about Jon much because he's focusing on Bran might well be in for a nasty surprise.

Thats what I think will happen, most people believe Bran is going to be BR successor and be in the cave for the rest of the story to support other characters but I strongly disagree with that theory, Bran has his own story.

I eventually see Bran disagreeing with BR methods along the way and leaving the cave via Hodor's body, GRRM isn't letting him use Hodor's body for no reason, I actually see Bran using it alot more in the next book.

Bran also has parallels with Arya and Sansa, they are both under some sort of training and I believe theyw ill all eventually leave and use what little knowledge they gained for their own purposes rather than being pawns of the people they are with.

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I'm sure this has been covered but would jon or aegon be the rightful king?

It depends how legalistic you are. The straightforward answer is that Aerys had two sons and a daughter: Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys. In that order that's the primary line of succession. Its the next generation where it gets complicated because any living children of Rhaegar the heir then enter the line of succession ahead of Viserys and Danaerys.

Officially at this moment in time with Rhaegar and his children both dead, we revert to Aerys' remaining children and as Viserystoo is now dead that means Danaerys. However if either Aegon/Young Griff or Jon are proven to be the legitimate children of Rhaegar then Danerys is bumped to the back of the queue again.

That's the theory, in practice most dynastic wars are fought over exactly this sort of thing. As the daughter of Aerys, Danaerys does have a legitimate claim to the throne. Its not the only claim and legally Aegon might have a better claim, but Danaerys has dragons.

In the end it comes down to Varys' riddle about the king, the bishop and the banker

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I don´t know if it has been discussed before, but... what about the staff of the ToJ? Everyone always talks about the 3 KGs, but what about the others? - the servants, the cook (remember R+L were highborns, unlikely they knew how to cook and they couldn´t survive for a year on fruits and roots), the maester, the midwife (don´t tell me R would let his pregnant girl give birth all by herself and I doubt the KGs knew anything about obstetrics) etc.



So there must have been some staff. But what happened to them? Did Ned kill them to keep them quiet? Did they run away and are roaming Westeros knowing the truth is out there (sorry, couldn´t resist :D) ? Did Ned pay them off, so they wouldn´t speak about the event? Any ideas? :dunno:


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I don´t know if it has been discussed before, but... what about the staff of the ToJ? Everyone always talks about the 3 KGs, but what about the others? - the servants, the cook (remember R+L were highborns, unlikely they knew how to cook and they couldn´t survive for a year on fruits and roots), the maester, the midwife (don´t tell me R would let his pregnant girl give birth all by herself and I doubt the KGs knew anything about obstetrics) etc.

So there must have been some staff. But what happened to them? Did Ned kill them to keep them quiet? Did they run away and are roaming Westeros knowing the truth is out there (sorry, couldn´t resist :D) ? Did Ned pay them off, so they wouldn´t speak about the event? Any ideas? :dunno:

It is supported by the text that after the fight with the KG, there was at least one more person present other than Howland Reed (they found Ned holding Lyanna's body) and there definitely had to be a wetnurse for Jon - and, curiously, there is this wetnurse called Wylla who is taking part in the cover up of Jon's identity. The general opinion is that Wylla was at ToJ, perhaps both as wetnurse and a midwife.

ETA: theguyfromthevale :ninja:

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It depends how legalistic you are. The straightforward answer is that Aerys had two sons and a daughter: Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys. In that order that's the primary line of succession. Its the next generation where it gets complicated because any living children of Rhaegar the heir then enter the line of succession ahead of Viserys and Danaerys.

Officially at this moment in time with Rhaegar and his children both dead, we revert to Aerys' remaining children and as Viserystoo is now dead that means Danaerys. However if either Aegon/Young Griff or Jon are proven to be the legitimate children of Rhaegar then Danerys is bumped to the back of the queue again.

That's the theory, in practice most dynastic wars are fought over exactly this sort of thing. As the daughter of Aerys, Danaerys does have a legitimate claim to the throne. Its not the only claim and legally Aegon might have a better claim, but Danaerys has dragons.

In the end it comes down to Varys' riddle about the king, the bishop and the banker

Definitely, the best claim is Danaerys'. Not only she has dragons, but also the Unsullied army, some Free Companies, and at the end of the action she was about to claim her old khalassar. No one has a better claim for anything, but ...

Anything means anything. After the battle of the dawn she might decide to leave Westeros to some nephew or someone, and come back east to be the Queen of Slavers Bay, or ride the endless Dothraki See with her reborn Drogo.

I think Rhaegar's ghost is of course right, and Aegon will be king. Mind the Marwyn connection. When and why he went to Asshai and back. We're told he's in touch with Qaithe, and was acquainted to Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn. He's also a researcher who finds hidden intellectual treasures, known by the Reader. What does he know? What is he after? Is he kinda Aegon's Obi Wan?

More on Targ family. There's an Auranne Waters, who's of an age to Viserys, and takes after Rhaegar. At least in the eyes of Cersei, his betrothed to be. More than YG does in JC's eyes. Too many baby swaps, or are they?

Forget about Jon. He might be half Targ, but the old gods have chosen him, no wonder he's been raised as a Snow. He could turn upto be the ice dragon, but he'll keep tied to the North, the wildlings, the wolves,... OTOH, that opens more follow ups to the story that making him a mere new Targ. Just imagine a charge of the direwolfes, tearing apart the wighs, or something.

Eta: AW is depicted as looking like Rhaegar even more than Viserys did. Is it a hint that AW might be Rhaegar's brother, be it true Viserys, or some Aerys' sidekick? :dunno:

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It is supported by the text that after the fight with the KG, there was at least one more person present other than Howland Reed (they found Ned holding Lyanna's body) and there definitely had to be a wetnurse for Jon - and, curiously, there is this wetnurse called Wylla who is taking part in the cover up of Jon's identity. The general opinion is that Wylla was at ToJ, perhaps both as wetnurse and a midwife.

ETA: theguyfromthevale :ninja:

Not only a wetnurse, there was at least a KG too many, :devil:

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It is supported by the text that after the fight with the KG, there was at least one more person present other than Howland Reed (they found Ned holding Lyanna's body) and there definitely had to be a wetnurse for Jon - and, curiously, there is this wetnurse called Wylla who is taking part in the cover up of Jon's identity. The general opinion is that Wylla was at ToJ, perhaps both as wetnurse and a midwife.

ETA: theguyfromthevale :ninja:

I totally forgot about Wylla. :blushing: I always sort of assumed Ned picked her up at Starfall and never gave much thought to her later whereabouts. Now that I am thinking about her - how did Edrik Dayne know she was Jon´s wetnurse? I mean he is 2 or 3 years younger than Jon, which means they never met. Did Wylla tell him?

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Definitely, the best claim is Danaerys'. Not only she has dragons, but also the Unsullied army, some Free Companies, and at the end of the action she was about to claim her old khalassar. No one has a better claim for anything, but ...

Anything means anything. After the battle of the dawn she might decide to leave Westeros to some nephew or someone, and come back east to be the Queen of Slavers Bay, or ride the endless Dothraki See with her reborn Drogo.

I think Rhaegar's ghost is of course right, and Aegon will be king. Mind the Marwyn connection. When and why he went to Asshai and back. We're told he's in touch with Qaithe, and was acquainted to Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn. He's also a researcher who finds hidden intellectual treasures, known by the Reader. What does he know? What is he after? Is he kinda Aegon's Obi Wan?

More on Targ family. There's an Auranne Waters, who's of an age to Viserys, and takes after Rhaegar. At least in the eyes of Cersei, his betrothed to be. More than YG does in JC's eyes. Too many baby swaps, or are they?

Forget about Jon. He might be half Targ, but the old gods have chosen him, no wonder he's been raised as a Snow. He could turn upto be the ice dragon, but he'll keep tied to the North, the wildlings, the wolves,... OTOH, that opens more follow ups to the story that making him a mere new Targ. Just imagine a charge of the direwolfes, tearing apart the wighs, or something.

I had once nursed hopes that Aurane Waters was the real Aegon, saved by Elias hand alone, and a play on YG's phrase, "some pisswater boy," but alas, he's too old.

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I totally forgot about Wylla. :blushing: I always sort of assumed Ned picked her up at Starfall and never gave much thought to her later whereabouts. Now that I am thinking about her - how did Edrik Dayne know she was Jon´s wetnurse? I mean he is 2 or 3 years younger than Jon, which means they never met. Did Wylla tell him?

According to Edric, Wylla is Jon's mother, not his wetnurse, at the same time, however, he states that Ashara and Ned were in love. Reeks of cover-story imo.

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I totally forgot about Wylla. :blushing: I always sort of assumed Ned picked her up at Starfall and never gave much thought to her later whereabouts. Now that I am thinking about her - how did Edrik Dayne know she was Jon´s wetnurse? I mean he is 2 or 3 years younger than Jon, which means they never met. Did Wylla tell him?

I think that the smallfolk of Starfall saw her with Jon abreast and it was common knowledge there, but I may be mistaken.

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According to Edric, Wylla is Jon's mother, not his wetnurse, at the same time, however, he states that Ashara and Ned were in love. Reeks of cover-story imo.

I was just about to edit "Jon´s wetnurse" to "Jon´s mother" :D But still how would he know that? More importantly why would someone tell him? Why include him in the cover-story?

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I think that the smallfolk of Starfall saw her with Jon abreast and it was common knowledge there, but I may be mistaken.

But wouldn´t Ned try to hide her from other people, when he wouldn´t even tell Cat about her?

P.S. sorry for the double post, I don´t know how to edit and quote at the same time =)

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I was just about to edit "Jon´s wetnurse" to "Jon´s mother" :D But still how would he know that? More importantly why would someone tell him? Why include him in the cover-story?

If no-one knows, it's not a cover story :P

But wouldn´t Ned try to hide her from other people, when he wouldn´t even tell Cat about her?

I can only theorize that he had to stay some time at Starfall before arranging a ship to take Jon to the North and couldn't avoid being seen with a newborn. The people at Starfall had no idea of Ned's whereabouts, so they had no reason to suspect that there was no way he and Wylla could have met. On the other hand, Winterfell was full of folks who had been with him most of the Rebellion and who knew that he was never anywhere near Dorne and didn't really meet anyone

P.S. sorry for the double post, I don´t know how to edit and quote at the same time =)

Use the multiquote button and type in between the quotes. If you want to divide a quote, just copy it and edit like any other text, just be careful not to mess with the heading.

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But for the purpose of discussion, especially when a lot of what these theories cover is pretty expansive, it's generally more expedient to make the overarching assumption that a theory is true than to constantly stipulate it. Like if our goal is to discuss the future of Jon's character arc, then obviously that is tied directly in to his parentage and for the purpose of that discussion, most people assume that R+L=J is true, even if we don't know that it is. The theory gives us something to work with and go off of. I think most people are aware that theories are still theories until they're written down in an explicitly canon way, but if you preclude theories from discussion of future books, then anything that's not explicitly stated should also go out the window. For instance, everyone knows that Manderly baked the Freys into a pie, but Martin didn't ever actually say that. He left the clues and expected us to extrapolate it from those which is why doing the same for other elements of the story, particularly ones that are mysteries, are usually fruitful and effective. Theories which have a solid grounding in what Martin has written, but haven't been outright confirmed, make for good points of discussion beyond the actual theory itself because most of these theories have far reaching effects.

That said, I suppose you can limit discussion to what is known to be canon and make some headway, but trying to go beyond that and reach a deeper understanding of the world, even if that understanding is flawed because we still don't have all the facts, is something that I think yields more results. Is every theory going to be true? No. Are most of them going to be true? Probably not. I'd be willing to bet that any theory out there isn't 100 percent correct, because Martin is purposefully obscuring the facts and limiting our knowledge, but he's said before that he's written the books in such a way that they're rewarding for people who read them carefully.

To wrap this up, almost canon is certainly not canon yet, but discussions generally benefit from assuming that elements that are almost canon are, in fact, canon for the purpose of discussion rather than excluding them entirely and discussing only what is explicitly told to us.

I appreciate this post. Very well thought-out.

The issue I have is that most threads start with "presuming R+L=J...." (seriously, most of them include this!) and that that presumption leads to other presumptions. Well, what if an alternate presumption lead to other alternate presumptions? As you said, GRRM is purposely obscuring facts, and is known to answer SSM's (second level of canon) from the viewpoint of the characters involved, and not the actual and ultimate truth of the situations.

The Wiki and the App are fan-edited and fan-generated. GRRM has not officially "corrected" either. Why would he? It would ruin his convoluted plans. It is to GRRM's advantage to keep people guessing, and to shock them. Who would have predicted Ned's beheading? Or the Red Wedding? Without Monday-Night quarterbacking.

This is why I have little faith in fan-generated theories presented as canon. "Well since we all agree this is what happened, we can make these presumptions...."

Well we don't all agree. And I'm pretty sick of seeing forum members here being mocked for suggesting their own theories.

Cheers, Wolfswood, not directed at you personally. I enjoyed your post, and I do understand your logic.

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