Gender Bias And You

[bbstark]

I like Melisandre because I am a boy and she is a woman.

you like her because she cooks your eggs to hard boiled yolk :P

[MindLikeWarp]

I like how women own their sex in this series. I don't know what it is like to be a woman, but they don't make the whores seem like they hate what they are doing. Sex is taboo, but the reality is that they are doing it and liking it. Cersei, owns it. Dany owns it. She goes to Drogo, unlike the fake HBO scene where he rapes her. But even the rape, is given an equality, as it is portrayed as no worse or no better than any other physical torture. Rapes, flayings, beatings, all terrible...all genders suffer.

[yolkboy]

Dany owns it. She goes to Drogo, unlike the fake HBO scene where he rapes her.

In the books Dany cries her eyes out every night, when Drogo is doing his thing in the tent. So I think HBO got this right, despite mixing scenes.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Wow I'd forgotten about that thread.

[Florina Laufeyson]

you like her because she cooks your eggs to hard boiled yolk :P

His yolk belongs to Mel and R'hllor. It is known.

actually no. It's perfectly normal and expected even, for women to identify with male charcters, it's vice versa that's the problem. If a guy identifies with Sansa (E-Ro where are you? ) do we mock him, or does he just maybe possibly have a point ?

Indeed. I identify with Arya a lot, but also with Jon. Arya represents my past viewpoints and feelings. Jon represents my current outlook. I root for both and am excited with how they go. I identify with Davos because...umm...well its hard to say why, i just do. lol!

So why cant a dude identify with Asha or Dany? We do see one member here who strongly identifies with Dany (Hai Pat!) and a couple of dudes who see Sansa's viewpoint. A couple of dudes here have also shown identification with Cat. Some guys like Mel for her looks and mystique, some like her because they have strong beliefs just like Mel does. Ive seen girls identify with Stannis.

We should not mock a guy who identifies with a female character.

[yolkboy]

you like her because she cooks your eggs to hard boiled yolk :P

she would be welcome to do that, yes. I'm even open to the idea of shadow babies, when the time comes.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Cersei, owns it. Dany owns it.

Yeah the rape is remembered with nothing but nostalgia.

[Florina Laufeyson]

she would be welcome to do that, yes. I'm even open to the idea of shadow babies, when the time comes.

Shadow Yolks! Runny or hard? :B

[Newstar]

I would say that I have--anecdotally, in a general sense--noticed that for many female posters, they have very strong and very sympathetic reactions to female characters who have been abused--even the villainous ones--and have very strong, very emotional, very negative reactions to the characters abusing them (moreso if the character is male, I've noticed). Not surprising, I suppose. There seems to be a visceral gut reaction there that I don't (generally, anecdotally) see for male posters, not even with respect to abused characters like Sam or Jon.

I do find it puzzling when female posters post walls and walls and walls of text about how awful it is that a female character is being abused and rail against those supposedly trying to minimize or deny her abuse--busting out all the usual colourful epithets in the process (abuse apologist, etc. etc.)--and then turn around and vociferously defend other female characters described by other posters as abusing a male character and come up with excuses for the female character's behaviour. A bit of cognitive dissonance going on there, methinks. I've had the amusing experience of seeing a poster in thread 1 mourn the lasting effects of Sansa's abuse in King's Landing and the deep scars her experience left on her, even if not readily apparent, and in thread 2 argue that Catelyn's treatment of Jon was no big deal since he seems to have turned out okay. It's pretty hilarious, actually.

[bbstark]

His yolk belongs to Mel and R'hllor. It is known.

Indeed. I identify with Arya a lot, but also with Jon. Arya represents my past viewpoints and feelings. Jon represents my current outlook. I root for both and am excited with how they go. I identify with Davos because...umm...well its hard to say why, i just do. lol!

So why cant a dude identify with Asha or Dany? We do see one member here who strongly identifies with Dany (Hai Pat!) and a couple of dudes who see Sansa's viewpoint. A couple of dudes here have also shown identification with Cat. Some guys like Mel for her looks and mystique, some like her because they have strong beliefs just like Mel does. Ive seen girls identify with Stannis.

We should not mock a guy who identifies with a female character.

exactly Flo! Someone who suggests that men do not identify with female characters haven't been paying attention on the forums.

I also like to use Star Wars as an example, if I like Obi Wan, it means I am partial to wise characters in leadership positions, and if a guy like Leia...well it's typically assumed that there's sentiments going on that Yolky has for Mel :P

she would be welcome to do that, yes. I'm even open to the idea of shadow babies, when the time comes.

little shadow chicks? :D

[Annara Snow]

I mean in all honesty these books are very unisex but if you think time period type of characters and the characters who have girl issues I'd say it leans more to a male audience.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Time period? What does that have to do with what gender the readers are? "Type of characters"? "Girl issues"? Could you please try to explain?

Now on a personal note I've never met a girl who enjoys talking politics

*Raises hand*

Always liked talking politics. And I know lots of girls and women who enjoy talking politics. How many girls have you tried talking politics to?

Nor girls that like " the dark ages" or the idea girls during that time Wed so young. Most would be turned off by just the idea.

Wait, what?! You actually think that people who read ASOIAF like the Middle Ages and think it would be cool to live in that time period because it's awesome? You think that they like the idea of 13-year old girls being forced to marry adult men? Do you like this idea? You seem to be implying that you do, or at least that you have no problem with it, and that you don't think any men have a problem with it. It's just the womenz who get upset about it. You're saying men think rape is cool?

As well as all the beheadings, flayings, mass murder, poisonings, slaughter, torture, mutilations etc. We all love that stuff, don't we, and that's why we read ASOIAF, to experience all those beautiful things vicariously through the characters. I've heard that wedding planners are getting a lot of offers for weddings that replicate the famous Edmure/Roslin wedding. :rolleyes:

But because grrm wrote the books so well adding in powerful female characters women seem to look past the huge sexism and the idea that young girls like dany at 13 was sold off to a 30 year old man for an army.

This woman here does not look past the huge sexism that the characters and society of ASOIAF exhibit, she looks straight into the huge sexism and it's exactly one of the main reasons why she enjoys the series - for the brutally realistic way that GRRM depicts oppression and sexism, for the way he exposes just how awful the medieval world was for women - and not just for women, for everybody, but especially for oppressed groups and for people who didn't fit with social expectations. This woman is happy that a book about a society of that type tackles the fact that girls as young as 13 and younger could be sold to adult men - heck, it's even happening today in some places - because they were seen as chattel. This is exactly what makes these books feminist. Talking about oppression and sexism in a critical way is feminist; as opposed to pretending that these problems don't exist and that they didn't even exist in the past.

(I'm starting to sound like Jaqen, talking about myself in the 3rd person.)

This whole idea of it being a feminine book series reminds me of the whole "grease" situation. It ended up being the most popular and loved movie by females. When in truth it was a story written by 2 men showing male empowerment and being completely anti-feminist. (I'd you don't believe me look it up).

I won't, since I've never seen Grease and I don't care. ("Male empowerment"? That phrase exists? LOL) But what does that have to do with ASOIAF? Are you trying to say that the series is anti-feminist? If you are, you're completely off-base.

[Florina Laufeyson]

exactly Flo! Someone who suggests that men do not identify with female characters haven't been paying attention on the forums.

I also like to use Star Wars as an example, if I like Obi Wan, it means I am partial to wise characters in leadership positions, and if a guy like Leia...well it's typically assumed that there's sentiments going on that Yolky has for Mel :P

little shadow chicks? :D

Yeah totes. Not all dudes who dig on Leia are in it for the slave bikini. Shes a pretty strong character. We should hear out why a dude loves a female character, cuz chances are, its not because shes hot! I like Loki from Marvel's Thor. Hes HELLA pretty, sure (just look at my avatar!), but i also adore his scheming character and snark.

Shadow chicks! Awwwwww so deadly, yet so cute.

[WeaselPie]

I would say that I have--anecdotally, in a general sense--noticed that for many female posters, they have very strong and very sympathetic reactions to female characters who have been abused--even the villainous ones--and have very strong, very emotional, very negative reactions to the characters abusing them (moreso if the character is male, I've noticed). Not surprising, I suppose. There seems to be a visceral gut reaction there that I don't (generally, anecdotally) see for male posters, not even with respect to abused characters like Sam or Jon.

I do find it puzzling when female posters post walls and walls and walls of text about how awful it is that a female character is being abused and rail against those supposedly trying to minimize or deny her abuse--busting out all the usual colourful epithets in the process (abuse apologist, etc. etc.)--and then turn around and vociferously defend other female characters described by other posters as abusing a male character and come up with excuses for the female character's behaviour. A bit of cognitive dissonance going on there, methinks. I've had the amusing experience of seeing a poster in thread 1 mourn the lasting effects of Sansa's abuse in King's Landing and the deep scars her experience left on her, even if not readily apparent, and in thread 2 argue that Catelyn's treatment of Jon was no big deal since he seems to have turned out okay. It's pretty hilarious, actually.

It was a pleasure to read this post.

[bbstark]

as one of the Co-Authors of this thread I highly discourage people from personal attack... yes, even the passive aggressive "some posters in thread 1 said A, and thread 2 B, I find this hillarious, as they are X, Y, and Z, where X,Y,Z = generic insult " kind of personal attack

WK and I are not amused, not impressed, and not happy with you, thank you.

[yolkboy]

.well it's typically assumed that there's sentiments going on that Yolky has for Mel :P

Oh wait are you assuming that i have a thing for her. She's over a hundred years old and has red eyes lol.

ok i do have a thing for her. No darkness could withstand our shadow chicks.

[juanml82]

2 things:

1. yes, a lot of the OP is a joke, intended to lead you to an important and uncomfortable question, in a comfortable and cushy manner: WHY are people surprised at women reading and enjoying the books? Additionally, is there such a thing as a feminine perspective? Women do not belong to a hive mind, and in spite of gendered behavior, are capable of distinct, individual opinions on both male and female book characters.

and

2. I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that people who argue that Sansa is NOT to blame for Lady's death do so due to some kind of emotional reason (If I'm reading you correctly) and not based on "causation".

I hope you realize your argument suggests women do not look at causation (logic presumably). It really is a punch to the gut disguised as an 'observation'. Furthermore, does the 'emotional' analysis and motivation of a character presuppose you are not using logic, or causation as you call it?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, because what you wrote, could very easily be interpreted as an insult

actually no. It's perfectly normal and expected even, for women to identify with male charcters, it's vice versa that's the problem. If a guy identifies with Sansa (E-Ro where are you? ) do we mock him, or does he just maybe possibly have a point ?

1) I don't think the closed thread started by the poor bashed newcomer was made in the lines of being surprised by women liking the books. If that poor guy meant it, it certainly didn't show it in the post he wrote. Even more, I don't even think he thought there was a thing as a single feminine perspective.

Rather, seeing how men and women tend to have different outlooks on life, the poor guy suffered from the sin of curiosity and dared to ask the opinion of individuals of a particular group of people about a particular work of art.

And he got bashed for his troubles.

Now, it could also be argued that the stereotypical reader of fantasy series is a man. If this series helps overturn the stereotype, all the better. But I don't think the idea that ASOIAF is man thing was ever proposed in the other thread.

2) Women obviously can make analytical and logical thoughts. And I don't think Sansa based her decisions on emotions. If anything, it seemed a calculated lie. However, I think we can all agree there is quite a lot of truth in a girl going to her boyfriend upset about some trouble, the guy tries to find a solution to it but the girl only wants to vent and it's not interested in a solution at the moment. Of course, that's not going to be truth 100% of the time, but it does happen.

What I mean is, we can pretend to be progressive, feminist and whatever and claim there are no tangible differences between men and women's psyche, but that's just not true. And some people have shown to be too sensitive and overreact to the subject.

[Annara Snow]

I like how women own their sex in this series. I don't know what it is like to be a woman, but they don't make the whores seem like they hate what they are doing. Sex is taboo, but the reality is that they are doing it and liking it. Cersei, owns it. Dany owns it. She goes to Drogo, unlike the fake HBO scene where he rapes her. But even the rape, is given an equality, as it is portrayed as no worse or no better than any other physical torture. Rapes, flayings, beatings, all terrible...all genders suffer.

Of course the whores aren't going to seem like they hate what they're doing. It's essential part of their job to seem like they are liking it. You do realize that most of them are doing it in order to put food on the table, not because they're enjoying it? That's the worst example you could have picked to show the female desire in the series. Female desire is important in the series, but prostitution has very little to do with it.

[Newstar]

Like, because I am so tired of the hate female characters get in other fandoms (hello Skyler!) and the relative rarity of complex female characters in general, I came to ASoIaF predisposed to like all the ladies. This combined with my acknowledgement of my own internalised sexism and the fact that they're usually playing on a harder setting means I tend to be more forgiving of female characters.

I'm honestly surprised that so many female fans glom on to ASOIAF, since it's not a particularly female-friendly series, not only because of the constant parade of misogynistic characters (and I realize that depiction is not the same thing as endorsement), rape/sexual abuse, male gaze-y descriptions, etc. etc., but just because there are so many other series that are genuinely female-friendly, and have what ASOIAF is lacking. Why would you try to trump up some evidence of female/female friendship--sorely lacking in the ASOIAF books, even though you can't throw a rock without hitting a bromance--by trying to scour ASOIAF for evidence, when there are so many feminist-friendly fantasy series where genuine, loving, rock-solid female/female friendships are front and centre? Why would you slog through ASOIAF's gross, male gaze-y sex scenes when there's a lot of female-penned fantasy with sex scenes that are beautifully written and put female pleasure and even the female gaze front and centre? Why would you read about GRRM's iteration of the fantasy cliche of the oppressed, malicious, power-hungry queen declining into madness when it's been done more subtly and much more skillfully in so many other books? (Even Mossflower did it better, and that's a freaking Brian Jacques novel.)

It just seems like an exercise in masochism to me. Parsing ASOIAF for feminist themes and trying to glean from ASOIAF material to satisfy your cravings for strong female characters and feminist storytelling is like trying to spin The Godfather into a radical feminist call to arms. I mean, you can try, sure, but why bother?

[The Sleeper]

actually no. It's perfectly normal and expected even, for women to identify with male charcters, it's vice versa that's the problem. If a guy identifies with Sansa (E-Ro where are you? ) do we mock him, or does he just maybe possibly have a point ?

If by identify you mean recognize ourselves in the characters, at least the POV's, speaking for myself, to a lesser or greater degree I identify with all of them. The books are written with the intent to put us in their skin and they do a pretty good job at it.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm honestly surprised that so many female fans glom on to ASOIAF, since it's not a particularly female-friendly series, not only because of the constant parade of misogynistic characters (and I realize that depiction is not the same thing as endorsement), rape/sexual abuse, male gaze-y descriptions, etc. etc., but just because there are so many other series that are genuinely female-friendly, and have what ASOIAF is lacking. Why would you try to trump up some evidence of female/female friendship--sorely lacking in the ASOIAF books, even though you can't throw a rock without hitting a bromance--by trying to scour ASOIAF for evidence, when there are so many feminist-friendly fantasy series where genuine, loving, rock-solid female/female friendships are front and centre? Why would you slog through ASOIAF's gross, male gaze-y sex scenes when there's a lot of female-penned fantasy with sex scenes that are beautifully written and put female pleasure and even the female gaze front and centre? Why would you read about GRRM's iteration of the fantasy cliche of the oppressed, malicious, power-hungry queen declining into madness when it's been done more subtly and much more skillfully in so many other books?

It just seems like an exercise in masochism to me. Parsing ASOIAF for feminist themes and trying to glean from ASOIAF material to satisfy your cravings for strong female characters and feminist storytelling is like trying to spin The Godfather into a radical feminist call to arms. I mean, you can try, sure, but why bother?

Examples of those female friendly fantasy books series?