Jon Snow's Fate - Ghost / Ice Cell

[Winter King]

Very well analysed, I keep checking back for part two! Good work

[yolkboy]

about Arson, it could also be pointed out that : (from the wiki) "The legend says that by listening the ear against the Wall, one can still ear the sound of Arson's axe who digs the ice."

he is still alive (like jon) digging the ice..

Great thinking again, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. Yes that part of the legend i didn't think too much about, but what you say makes sense. Very astute! ;)

[Lysergik]

Fantastic job yolkboy.

Reading your posts are almost as good as reading the actual books. Definitely helps pass the time till TWOW comes out.

Thanks a lot for taking your time to write up these great posts, very, very enjoyable to read.

[yolkboy]

Fantastic job yolkboy.

Reading your posts are almost as good as reading the actual books. Definitely helps pass the time till TWOW comes out.

Thanks a lot for taking your time to write up these great posts, very, very enjoyable to read.

Well thanks! It means a lot that people are getting some enjoyment.

I must mention that I don't work alone, I've had help.

Dr. Pepper helped me in the initial stages. Lady Gwyn and The Dornishman's Widow proof and edit. The 6th Stark has been helping me research, and pick up things I missed.

Thanks for the help!

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

Fml made a whole post and then lost it, cursed mobile! I shall return with a proper wordmachine...

Great post, very well-formatted aswell and not too heavy on predictions & wishfull scenarios, i like that.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well thanks! It means a lot that people are getting some enjoyment.

I must mention that I don't work alone, I've had help.

Dr. Pepper helped me in the initial stages. Lady Gwyn and The Dornishman's Widow proof and edit. The 6th Stark has been helping me research, and pick up things I missed.

Thanks for the help!

There are those lovely manners ;)

The ideas are all yours, but you are welcome!

[Lysergik]

Well thanks! It means a lot that people are getting some enjoyment.

I must mention that I don't work alone, I've had help.

Dr. Pepper helped me in the initial stages. Lady Gwyn and The Dornishman's Widow proof and edit. The 6th Stark has been helping me research, and pick up things I missed.

Thanks for the help!

Well in that case, Great job to all involved!

[Fire Eater]

Very nicely done, yolkboy.

about Arson, it could also be pointed out that : (from the wiki) "The legend says that by listening the ear against the Wall, one can still ear the sound of Arson's axe who digs the ice."

he is still alive (like jon) digging the ice..

Another nice addition.

When Alliser Thorne said "You will die in here, Lord Snow;" I think it foreshadowing in the same way that the Elder Brother at the Qi said the Hound is dead, Sandor is alive but the Hound identity/aspect of him is gone. The Lord Snow identity of Jon will die in the ice cells, and be replaced with a new Jon, whose surname may be Targaryen. I don't think Jon's body will be dead, but near-death.

I don't think Beric was ever truly "brought back to life", since no death was used in payment. He doesn't eat. He's slowly losing all his memories of his real life. He's not alive, just undead. He's UnBeric, basically a high quality wight, and (with some transmission loss) that's what he passed to UnCat.

In order to truly bring Jon back to life (assuming his body is really dead), a death will need to pay for the new life.

Here's a post I suspect few have seen (from chrisdaw)

Story of Lyubim Tsarevich and the Winged Wolf

and here's an external link to the story

Story of Lyubim Tsarevich and the Winged Wolf

It's a Russian folktale. The Winged Wolf is a magical creature that helps a prince win a princess and gain a kingdom. The WW also brings the prince back from the dead after he is treacherously slain by his brothers. (All credit goes to chrisdaw for finding this.)

There's a chance this could have an impact on the last part of the OP's scenario.

ETA

BranRaven will help Jon.

And then her [Asha] back came up hard against a tree, and she could dance no more.

Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It's only sap, she'd told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood.

I think Asha will die in the Battle of Ice when she finds herself backed against the weirwood tree, and her blood is spilled onto the weirwood, and with the title of her last POV being "The Sacrifice" even though she wasn't being sacrificed, her death will be an unintentional blood sacrifice which will be used by BR and Bran to pay for the life of Jon.

[Arya kiddin']

Very good analysis yolkboy, as usual. The warging thing for now, is certain. I'm more excited for the resurrection part though, I would like to see how you incorporate Bran/Bloodraven into the mix. But that is the second part I guess.

One thing people forget, not notice and discuss is Arya in this scenario, but me being a die hard fan of my Lady Queen must bring this to attention as I myself am not quite sure on this part, and would like to hear opinions on the matter. The last word he whispered is Ghost surely, but there in the text, written in italics, crying for attention are the words "Stick them with the pointy end." I'd really like to hear people's opinions on this matter, as to what role Arya can play in Jon's re-surrrection. Even if her being the salt is not that popular a notion. :P

Another thing I want to comment on is the Wall. Many people argue that it has magic of both Ice and Fire. You yourself recognize it by quoting the example of Jon Snow and Arson Iceaxe (nice catch there :thumbsup: ) . But I still believe Wall represents ice only - preservation. This preservation is an aspect exclusive to ice and is brought forth repeatedly - by Aemon, preserved meat, and now preserving Jon's life. So here I'm a little unsure - the wall is entirely made of ice after all. People speculate there is salt in it as well - preservation again.

One more thing, the Varamyr prologue is too convenient. It doesn't move the story forward in any way, has no bearing on the way the plot progresses. It is just a warging 101 for the readers. :lol:

Amazing thread yolkboy.

I like the ice influences that are strong in Jon's arc.

I think Jon in the ice cell is going to be similar to Dany's funeral pyre and he will be reborn in some way and it continues the parallel arcs of these two characters, representing ice and fire respectively.

Well done!

Yes. I can certainly see this happening. And the parallels played will be quite substantial. If you ask me, Mel = MMD parallel might come into play here.

I think somebody will have to die. After all, only death pays for life.

Yes that is what I think too. Seeing as Queen Alysanne points out ^^ above that the parallels with the pyre will come into play.

The life of three actual dragons was not bought cheaply, there is no reason to believe that re-birth of a metaphorical dragon entails no sacrifices either.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

When I first read this part, somehow I felt it was in the future, not present. IMO this is foreshadowing of Jon in a comatose state, he will not die.

"The cold preserves"

Jon will go into Ghost, causing his human body to go into a state of reduced metabolism. Combined with the cooling of the ice cells (in modern medicine, they sometimes induce a coma by lowering the body temperature) it will allow Jon's body to heal, while keeping his spirit/mind alive inside Ghost.

If he couldn't warg into Ghost, the damage done to his mind by the comatose state would be too great. OTOH if he couldn't go into the comatose state his body wouldn't be able to heal.

Only in cases like the Starks and their Direwolves is the bond so strong that the human mind (Jon) will be able to survive for a longer period inside the Direwolf (Ghost), while his own human body is unable to host the mind. In essence, like it's been mentioned in the books, Jon & Ghost are one. Two bodies that can share consciousness, unlike Varamyr for example, where the one would dissolve into the other.

[alienarea]

Maybe Jon never feels the fourth knife because he is never stabbed a fourth time?

And he rises with deep blue eyes and is not nice.

[yolkboy]

Another thing I want to comment on is the Wall. Many people argue that it has magic of both Ice and Fire. You yourself recognize it by quoting the example of Jon Snow and Arson Iceaxe (nice catch there :thumbsup: ) . But I still believe Wall represents ice only - preservation. This preservation is an aspect exclusive to ice and is brought forth repeatedly - by Aemon, preserved meat, and now preserving Jon's life. So here I'm a little unsure - the wall is entirely made of ice after all. People speculate there is salt in it as well - preservation again.

Oh i totally completely agree the Wall is ice magic only. The arson iceaxe example was just showing a hint at Jon.

Maybe Jon never feels the fourth knife because he is never stabbed a fourth time?

And he rises with deep blue eyes and is not nice.

I don't see any purpose whatsoever in mentioning a fourth knife that doesn't exist after the narrative shift. And the scenario of Jon not being stabbed by the non existent fourth knife, and then waking up with blue eyes would have heaps of foreshadowing.

Jon is also on the wrong side of the Wall to get blue eyes. Jaffers already had blue eyes when he was taken south of the Wall, he was playing dead all along. The bodies taken to the cell never became wights.

[Rooseman]

I don't see any purpose whatsoever in mentioning a fourth knife that doesn't exist after the narrative shift.

I totally agree. This notion of the fourth knife that didn't really stab Jon is always brought up by people who try to force the idea, that Jon somehow survived the stabbing.

"First slash at his throat? Well, it only grazed him..." Only that it didn't. Look at the wording:

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers.

Compared to the Barristan chapter right after that:

A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

"Second stab in the belly? Well, we don't know how deep it is, Jon probably wears inches and inches of wool and leather..."

"Third stab between the shoulderblades? Well, we don't know where exactly it hit him, could be that no vital organs were damaged..."

"Fourth dagger? Well, it's said he didn't feel this one, so it might be he wasn't even stabbed a fourth time..."

Face it, friends. Jon died there and then. From now on, I'll just point people who claim otherwise to this thread :) This amount of foreshadowing and symbolism you put together there, yolkboy, can't just be waved off.

[Frozentree]

I had never taken this theory very seriously, but this can't be really argued against. Nice work :thumbsup:

Still not fan of it, but now it has moved to the "not want to happen, but believe to happen" plane

[yolkboy]

snip

The example of the Barristan chapter is excellent, and yes, funny that it's next to Jon's chapter. I already showed how Kevan's epilogue (again very close to Jon's chapter) might be telling for the claim Jon could be bleeding out - I'd bet these two similarities with injuries being placed where they are is no coincidence. Good sleuthing on that one, Rooseman!

(and i wish quotes didnt disappear when i want to reply to someone, grrrrrrrr)

[Lord Martin]

This is brilliant, simply brilliant. The use of the prologue and epilogue sold me. Mel's vision of course is a very strong clue and you found a good bit of the evidence.

This also opens up the door possibly for an Azor Ahai reborn situation and I'm excited to see you explore that.

A few questions pop into my mind:

What's going to happen at the wall in the immediate aftermath of the Ides of Marsh? Will he take control of the watch? Will relations between Watch and wildlings fall to pieces? Slaughter of one group or another? And what of Stannis's men there?

Does this have implications on the battle of Winterfell? Will Stannis need to be involved as the supposed AA reborn? Or is he merely a link in a greater chain of causality?

Will Mel be able to use simply use the KoF like Thoros did for Lord Beric? Or will an AA type sacrifice be needed?

My fear is that the Kiss can bring back Jon's body, but he would have to take his mind and spirit back from Ghost by killing him. Plenty of parallels to the original AA myth there. Plus lots of other symmetries.

Could this also resolve some other HOTU visions? Waking stone dragons?

Lots of things running in my head... can't wait for this....

[yolkboy]

This is brilliant, simply brilliant. The use of the prologue and epilogue sold me. Mel's vision of course is a very strong clue and you found a good bit of the evidence.

This also opens up the door possibly for an Azor Ahai reborn situation and I'm excited to see you explore that.

A few questions pop into my mind:

What's going to happen at the wall in the immediate aftermath of the Ides of Marsh? Will he take control of the watch? Will relations between Watch and wildlings fall to pieces? Slaughter of one group or another? And what of Stannis's men there?

Thanks, Lord Martin. We're told there are 57 'queen's men' at the Wall, some are cripples Stannis left behind and no leader like Stannis. We're also told, suspiciously close to the end of Jon's chapter that the wildlings are out numbering the NW by 5-1 in the shield Hall (someone in small questions estimated 200 NW fwiw).

So you have lots of angry wildlings in vastly superior numbers, who have been religiously repressed and humiliated. There's thousands more at the gift. And no Jon Snow to placate them - the only NW Tormund (who is now wildling leader) respected. The NW will probably be fighting among themselves/fleeing/chaos etc. I would guess, adding all this together, that there will be a power-shift towards the wildlings, at the Wall. No other scenario makes sense to me.

I don't know how this would effect Stannis, I havent thought about it much.

The rest of your questions will be covered in part 2, I had to divide things up because of length.

I had never taken this theory very seriously, but this can't be really argued against. Nice work :thumbsup:

Still not fan of it, but now it has moved to the "not want to happen, but believe to happen" plane

Ha, I do try an approach things objectively to see where the evidence is at. But I think ultimately this scenario could pan out with a fascinating end result, that might not be too upsetting for Jon fans.

[Bonifer Tasty]

Weird... I remember another occasion (in Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy) where main character was killed but saved his mind/soul by warging into wolf.

Very interesting, should've thought that myself. Thanks for doing it for me. :P

The mention of Robin Hobb's name made me think of Three-Fingered Hobb and wondered if that character had been put up near the wall as a kind of hidden homage. It doesn't really seem to work, I guess. The name is a pseudonum (according to wikipedia) for Margaret Astrid Lindholm Ogden, which got me nowhere. The only thing I can reach for is that she is inordinately fond of writing TRILOGIES! LOL. Wikipedia lists the Farseer Trilogy, the Liveship Trilogy, the Tawny Man Trilogy, the Rain Wilds Trilogy, the Fitz and Fool Trilogy, and the Soldier's Son Trilogy. (Also a quartet, but Hobb only has three fingers...)

Oh well, just thought I would share this little bit of uselessness... ha ha!

[yolkboy]

One more thing, the Varamyr prologue is too convenient. It doesn't move the story forward in any way, has no bearing on the way the plot progresses. It is just a warging 101 for the readers. :lol:

In replying to your thing about the Wall, I actually missed the rest of your post AK. I completely agree the Varamyr prologue was some kind of 'idiots guide' to warging. And you're correct, and i hadn't thought of it in this context, but it doesn't move the story on at all. Prologues, in general, are used to set things up - it's their reason for existing. So I don't see any way Varamyr's is going to be justified, in the way all the other prologues have been or obviously will be. I can't don't think we know about second life just for Varamyr and Orrel.

And the parallels played will be quite substantial. If you ask me, Mel = MMD parallel might come into play here.

Yes and they both happened to study in Asshai to learn their tricks. Interestingly, in the Mirri/Drogo sequence, there's a shadow of a "great wolf" seen.

Yes that is what I think too. Seeing as Queen Alysanne points out ^^ above that the parallels with the pyre will come into play.

The life of three actual dragons was not bought cheaply, there is no reason to believe that re-birth of a metaphorical dragon entails no sacrifices either.

It's drilled into us that only death may pay for life, and with Dany's pyre being an obvious parallel, i can't see a way out of this without some serious sacrifice. It would go against grrm's writing style and the logic of his world to give us a resurrection sequence without a- a huge sacrifice & b- a huge change to the person involved.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

BLUE FLOWER IN A CHINK OF ICE

In the HotU, Dany sees this vision...

The blue flower is Jon. A 'chink' is defined as a small opening. The ice cells are tiny, especially on the scale of a 700ft Wall. So the 'chink' is an ice cell. Jon, in an ice cell.

The flower is growing - changing, becoming. Trapped in his wolf, his mind is permanently mixing with Ghost's (from the Varamyr prologue - I'll discuss later). Their personalities are combining – Jon is changing, growing. 'Sweetness' can have unexpected negative connotations, as explored here. Varamyr happens to describe second life as “sweet”.

Amazing post. I have an alternate theory on this point. A chink, while being a small opening, is also a point weakness. While I generally do think Jon's going to end up in an ice cell, it is possible that this passage doesn't refer to his death/near death. Look at the other two husbands. Dany's wedding night with Drogo is referenced which was completely unrelated to his death. Victarion is referenced on his ship, possibly after his death and rebirth at the hands of Moqorro. While he's "dead," he isn't dead dead, if you catch my meaning. So Jon's reference may not refer to his position in TWOW but could refer to a position much earlier in the story.

Jon becomes LC and starts growing as a character after the revolt which killed LC Mormont. The Night's Watch was severely weakened by the Others' attack at the Fist and Mance views them as susceptible to attack. It is in this context that Jon becomes LC and begins to grow as a person. He grows out of the weakness of the NW which is intrinsically linked to the wall. Thus, the blue rose (Jon) grows out of the chink in the wall (weakness in the NW). If this is the case it is Jon's time as LC which has filled the air with sweetness. I'm not sure what this refers to. Perhaps the presence of women at the Wall. Perhaps there's a deathly sweetness to the fires which burn the corpses of the dead. The burning of corpses would fit in with this being a "bride of fire" section. Alternatively, the sweetness could just be the pervasiveness of Jon's rule as LC. The rose "filled the air" meaning it transformed the world around it. After all, it's hard to show a rose having influence beyond it's smell. Jon certainly has transformed the NW this could be the blue rose filling the air with its smell which is sweetness.

I think this makes as much sense as the vision referring to Jon's incarceration.