A Theory: The possibly game-changing secret beneath the Winterfell Crypts

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think you're right cantuse. The significance of the harp would be to show the depth of R+L, proving that rather than rape and abduction, there was real feeling involved. Since the nature of his parents' relationship is also something Jon worries about, it would serve as a real solace to him in the bittersweet moment of the reveal.

One of the reason I favor the regalia idea is the triple purpose the items serve-

the harp proves love

the crown proves legitimacy (Stark via Targ)

the egg proves identity

Of course, the egg theory is based on information from D&E and spoilers from the upcoming Princess and the Queen, so it's much more subtle. At the end of the day, I agree with those who have noted that Jon is hardly likely to start pillaging his (believed) aunt's tomb on his own, and I doubt even with the assistance of his dreams. The information will have to come from someone. I think we can all agree HR seems the most likely candidate.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I really like this, great job putting this together. Also whoever said the three things in her crypt are Torrhens Crown to show his Stark side, Targ wedding cloak for his Targ side, and the Harp to symbolize the meeting of both, I REALLY LIKE THAT!

[Jory Cassel]

My money is still on:

1. marriage cloak

2. Torrhen's Crown

3. Dark Sister

Artifacts from both families, cloak provides testimony to the marriage.

[Eira Seren]

The oath of the Reeds can't conceivably have anything to do with Rhaegar from an in-story perspective.

maybe. This thread offers some thoughts. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61774-the-reeds-oath-to-bran-ice-and-fire/

I am still holding out for the harp. And probably an egg.

[evita mgfs]

Impressive analysis! Good, strong use of textual evidence. Congratulations!

[cantuse]

@Jory

How would Dark Sister be in the tomb? Is there a theory for that one?

[cantuse]

@Lady Gwynhyfvar

I really like your proposed regalia and the meaning behind them. I think that could be it.

[Jory Cassel]

@Jory

How would Dark Sister be in the tomb? Is there a theory for that one?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95514-jon-snow-visenya-aemon-bloodraven-passing-on-dark-sister/

admittedly not much evidence on it being in the tomb though

[nat655]

Damn you! Was all ready to not believe it and then you drop that LF quote! Great theory though well done!

[Fat King Robert]

Wow. Really like this theory.

Mind blown :bowdown:

[cantuse]

@Jory: well no wonder you like that theory, it's yours!

[Lyse Stark]

This is sheer genius. I think the harp Rhaegar had was distinctive and also small enough to be portable. So I think this harp is a Chekov's gun.

[WeaselPie]

An elegant theory. But I don't think Ned lugged a harp to Winterfell, considering the other important "baggage" he was likely carrying.

I actually think a dragon's egg is likely.

[JP Dayne]

I didn't like it. At all.

No evidence, just wild guess without any back up I'd say

by OP's intro I thought my mind would be blown away, and all I can say is

I want those five minutes of my life back

[Not Dead Just Broken]

It always bothers me that so much of R+L=J comes to us from AGOT. This theory is apparently no exception. The two quotes we have from the OP about Jon descending into the crypts are from AGOT. I have nothing against evidence from AGOT but it should be taken in context. I feel like the context is being intentionally ignored here. Jon has these dreams before he saves the Old Bear from the Wight. The dreams aren't about his mother. Remember, the dreams terrify him. He's not terrified of Lyanna Stark or even of being Rhaegar's son. He says that it isn't even the old Kings of Winter that scare him... until they start rising from the dead.

In the first telling of the dream he's looking for various members of his family: yes, his father, but also Robb, Arya even Benjen. In fact, it is Benjen Stark that sidetracks the telling. Here's the intervening paragraph when Jon is telling the dream:

"The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing.

The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they’d found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished. "

He then tells Sam that he never finds the person he's looking for in his dream... sort of like nobody ever found Benjen Stark.

The second dream in which the Kings of Winter rise from their graves immediately precedes the wight in the LC chambers. So, Jon has a dream of dead men rising from the grave before dead men rise from the grave and the meaning we should take away from this is that there's a harp in Lyanna's tomb? Really?

If I had to guess these dreams are BR warning Jon about the Wights. He uses a place Jon is familiar with to illustrate the idea of the dead rising from their graves. What scares Jon is the Wights. The other possibility is that Jon is just homesick.

Yes, the LF quote is about Rhaegar being persuasive with his harp. That doesn't mean the harp is in the crypts of Winterfell. For all we know, Rhaenys was fond of it and Rhaegar left it in KL for her to play with and then Gregor smashed it against a wall.

[WeaselPie]

It always bothers me that so much of R+L=J comes to us from AGOT. This theory is apparently no exception. The two quotes we have from the OP about Jon descending into the crypts are from AGOT. I have nothing against evidence from AGOT but it should be taken in context. I feel like the context is being intentionally ignored here. Jon has these dreams before he saves the Old Bear from the Wight. The dreams aren't about his mother. Remember, the dreams terrify him. He's not terrified of Lyanna Stark or even of being Rhaegar's son. He says that it isn't even the old Kings of Winter that scare him... until they start rising from the dead.

In the first telling of the dream he's looking for various members of his family: yes, his father, but also Robb, Arya even Benjen. In fact, it is Benjen Stark that sidetracks the telling. Here's the intervening paragraph when Jon is telling the dream:

He then tells Sam that he never finds the person he's looking for in his dream... sort of like nobody ever found Benjen Stark.

The second dream in which the Kings of Winter rise from their graves immediately precedes the wight in the LC chambers. So, Jon has a dream of dead men rising from the grave before dead men rise from the grave and the meaning we should take away from this is that there's a harp in Lyanna's tomb? Really?

If I had to guess these dreams are BR warning Jon about the Wights. He uses a place Jon is familiar with to illustrate the idea of the dead rising from their graves. What scares Jon is the Wights. The other possibility is that Jon is just homesick.

Yes, the LF quote is about Rhaegar being persuasive with his harp. That doesn't mean the harp is in the crypts of Winterfell. For all we know, Rhaenys was fond of it and Rhaegar left it in KL for her to play with and then Gregor smashed it against a wall.

Except... Jon never feels welcome in the crypts. "I'm not a Stark! This isn't my place!"

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Except... Jon never feels welcome in the crypts. "I'm not a Stark! This isn't my place!"

He doesn't understand what BR is trying to tell him. So, yeah, he doesn't feel welcome in the crypts. Catelyn's made it quite clear his entire life that he doesn't belong there. He's a Snow not a Stark. That doesn't prove harps or crowns or rubies or dragon's eggs or wedding cloaks in Lyanna's Tomb. It doesn't even support R+L=J. If anything it supports the BR giving him a vision idea. He's not in control of the dream.

[WeaselPie]

He doesn't understand what BR is trying to tell him. So, yeah, he doesn't feel welcome in the crypts. Catelyn's made it quite clear his entire life that he doesn't belong there. He's a Snow not a Stark. That doesn't prove harps or crowns or rubies or dragon's eggs or wedding cloaks in Lyanna's Tomb. It doesn't even support R+L=J. If anything it supports the BR giving him a vision idea. He's not in control of the dream.

I get it and agree. His reaction in the crypts supports that.

[El Guapo]

What I don't understand is why people actually want Jon to go down in the crypts, pry open Lyanna's tomb and sift through her bones for artifacts. It is kind of creepy.

[Alta1r]

I really like the theory cantuse. I think you're spot on about the harp being a Chekov's gun. I don't think we're going to find out whether it's in the tomb or not though. I have a hard time seeing anyone in-verse going down and opening up Lyanna's tomb. I think it'll happen more figuratively. Maybe once Jon is forced to complete his dream he'll see the harp in there with possibly other regalia as mentioned. Or maybe Bloodraven will show him visions of glimpses heart trees caught of R+L and/or Ned transporting the harp back. Or Howland Reed will tell Jon/give him the harp himself. But even then I think Jon won't understand until Sam, Howland or someone else tells him that it's Rhaegar's harp. If anything, I feel like it'll be a plot device to let us, the readers, confirm Jon's parentage. But in the books whatever, if anything, is in Lyanna's tomb will be irrelevant for the other characters. The knowledge could "awaken" Jon, embolden and/or empower him to do PtwP things (ride a dragon, forge/find Lightbringer, go super-saiyan and magically turn his hair and eyes Targ (lol) etc.) and slowly the other characters in the book will reverse engineer his identity from knowledge of the prophecy plus the crazy sh*t Jon accomplishes. I imagine something like "holy f*ck, he just destroyed the Others --> the prophecy said the PtwP would do that --> the woods witch prophecized that the PtwP would be born from Aerys + wife --> either (1) prophecies are bullshit OR (2) holy sh*t, he must be R+L. Perhaps at this point, if there's a succession issue with Daeny or Jon or Aegon, they might open up Lyanna's tomb.

That was going off on a tangent from your OP and not inconsistent with it either. Overall, I love your harp analysis as an important relic whether it's in the tomb or with Howland.