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cantuse

A Theory: The possibly game-changing secret beneath the Winterfell Crypts

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I don't really see the point of the harp at all, but that's probably just because of my views of how Jon's parentage is actually going to matter:


1) First let me say that I think that revealing his parentage to the public would be a political suicide and Jon might as well kill himself if he decides to do it, so there really is no reason for the item to be well known. His parentage won't matter when it comes to politics and trying to convince public would be counter productive and there are zero benefits to it.



2) When it comes to prophecy side of it, only Jon (and maybe not even he - you don't unlock world saving superpowers by knowing your parentage; you become hero by yourself) would need to be convinced. That can hardly be done with a harp. Jon does not know how it looks, does not know howi it sounds, probably does not even know Rhaegar played harp (I don't see romantic stories about the man being told around WF). The only person in the North who for sure knows the harp is Howland Reed. Stuff like bridal cloak would actually suit this point more, as it is much more straightforward.


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I love this theory! I've been dissatisfied with the bridal cloak idea alone.

I do have a question about the crypts, and this is not a criticism just a legit question. I got the impression that all Starks are buried in the crypts, men & women alike, just only the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell have statues. Lyanna's was an exception and so was brother Brandon bc Ned loved them so much. Did I just always misread that? Where did you find that the women are not buried down there? And I guess where do you think they are buried if they don't go in the crypts?

But seriously, love this harp business.

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I love this theory! I've been dissatisfied with the bridal cloak idea alone.

I do have a question about the crypts, and this is not a criticism just a legit question. I got the impression that all Starks are buried in the crypts, men & women alike, just only the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell have statues. Lyanna's was an exception and so was brother Brandon bc Ned loved them so much. Did I just always misread that? Where did you find that the women are not buried down there? And I guess where do you think they are buried if they don't go in the crypts?

But seriously, love this harp business.

Yes, the crypts are for the Lords, and Lyanna and Brandon are an exception. IMO Lyanna got a crypt because she's buried with a dragon egg, and possibly some additional bones that aren't hers. Brandon got a crypt because his son with Ashara was killed at the Sack in place of Jon, who is the real Aegon. Lyanna and Brandon both gave major sacrifices for the Targ Kings that the Starks had sworn to for generations.

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This is a red herring theory.

If Rhaegar's harp was laid in Lyanna's tomb it doesn't prove anything about Jon's parentage, even publicising the discovery of Rhaegar's harp in Lyanna's tomb doesn't advance the in-book knowledge of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship one iota. Everybody already knows that Lyanna and Rhaegar galloped off together into the sunset. Everybody assumes that they had sex (willingly or unwillingly). The presence of the harp would only suggest that Lyanna was a willing partner.

The problem is that The Ned has successfully disconnected the issue of Jon's parentage from the issue of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship. The presence of the harp doesn't link Jon to Lyanna and wouldn't link him to Lyanna. It would change nothing in regard to in-book beliefs about Jon's parentage.

What you would need to make a change in-book - as opposed to among the readership - is either a witness or an object that testifies to a link between Jon and Lyanna. Then you've got something game changing - a corny example would be finding half a cloak in Lyanna's tomb the matching half being already in Jon's possession since it was his childhood swaddling cloths. But I doubt that GRRM will resolve the question of Jon's parentage in-book. I suspect it will be part of the bittersweet ending. We as readers will be left strongly suspecting who he is in terms of descent and so will endure the heartache of seeing Jon not get his earthly inheritance while thinking smug thoughts to ourselves when references are made to Jon's paternity.

I agree the harp makes a connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar rather than Jon to any of them.

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Yes, the crypts are for the Lords, and Lyanna and Brandon are an exception. IMO Lyanna got a crypt because she's buried with a dragon egg, and possibly some additional bones that aren't hers. Brandon got a crypt because his son with Ashara was killed at the Sack in place of Jon, who is the real Aegon. Lyanna and Brandon both gave major sacrifices for the Targ Kings that the Starks had sworn to for generations.

Do you know where it explains this? All I see is in aGoT where Bran is telling Osha about the dead Starks when they go down after he and Rickon both have the dream about Ned and he says "his daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

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Great post. The littlefinger quote made me think about those tapestries that LF wants from KL.? Something that depicts, somehow, R+L or at the very least rhaegars harp?

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@Dorian -I'm flattered thank you.

I t appreciate that your theory is not based on the supposed truth of another theory and you refrain from using "it is known" to drive home a point

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What about if one of the missing targaryen swords were in the tomb along with a dragon egg and the harp. Or even dawn.... That would be epic.

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What about if one of the missing targaryen swords were in the tomb along with a dragon egg and the harp. Or even dawn.... That would be epic.

Maybe a dragon egg?

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This theory is the first time I've felt spoiled, and I do it to myself all the time, but I can completely envision the scene now. I haven't gone through the whole thread but the harp must be wrapped in the bridal cloak, all dusty and ragged, and someone blowing it off and marveling at the discovery. But we still don't know what the discovery will reveal.


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I think the harp being one of the items possibly in Lyanna's crypt makes a lot of sense. It's easy to transport (not like they were lacking in horses after nearly all the men died, and they likely also had at least one cart so any arguments that it would be hard to transport are absurd) and it's an item that would hold a lot of sentimental value. It's something that initially connected these two. Placing high value on things that have significance for love or romance is fairly common. How many of us are familiar with something as simple as saving the movie ticket from a first date or the first letter from a lover?



I think Rhaegar's harp in the crypt would be significant for readers. It helps confirm suspicions that there was love between Rhaegar and Lyanna. If Lyanna were an unwilling partner or if the relationship had soured, it's very unlikely Lyanna would have asked such a thing or that Ned would have complied. There's still that missing link that others have pointed out. The harp doesn't do much to connect Jon and it doesn't do much to truly alter the known facts characters have about Lyanna and Rhaegar apart from maybe changing it from one of kidnap and rape to one of love. This is where I think Torrhen's crown being part of the relics hidden in Lyanna's tomb comes into play.



Crowns have specific meaning. Royalty wear crowns. Even wearers of crowns of flowers are given an honorary royal title (Queen of Love and Beauty). For characters in the book, Torrhen's crown would raise eyebrows in a way that the harp wouldn't. The harp might change the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar from one of kidnapping and pain to one of love. The crown would make people wonder just how far their relationship went. It's like the Blackfyre sword. It was a sword passed down from king to king. It was significant to a lot of people that Aegon IV chose to give it to Daemon. There are several passages in The Sworn Sword that discuss how some in the realm viewed the passing of the sword as an indication of Daemon's status as heir.



I think character reactions to Torrhen's crown would be similar, that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown because he considered her royalty and unless they think he considered her a princess of an independent northern kingdom, the logical conclusion might be that he considered her a princess via marriage.



The crown still doesn't give the link to Jon. For the readers, the crown might be enough to conclude legitimate issue from Rhaegar and Lyanna. For the characters, if they are provided that missing link -from Howland likely- I think the crown would be more important than the harp. I think the harp would still be important, but probably only for Jon and maybe a few select others.






P.S. cantuse, not sure what to think about your theory on the Myraham and the will. I'm not fond of the reddit format. Are you open to posting the theory here? I'm interested to see discussion on that.


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Cool thread, but you know what I'd like to see as evidence of Jon's claim? Controlling a dragon. Better than a harp. :cool4:

I am so, so, so, so, SO hoping that this is the pay off. He is a warg, and assuming he survives the Ides of (Black) March, he may do a better job than Dany at controlling the dragons.

Also, I just think it would be epic for Dany and FAegon, so convinced they are each A Very Special Star Flower, to be totally burned by the evidence of the entire kingdom seeing Jon Stark ride off on a dragon.

Bazinga.

Maybe it'll just end up being a pleasant day dream. We may never know if GRRM doesn't get a wriggle on (honestly he's worse than Isobelle Carmody!)

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I really loved this theory, but there's still a missing piece: even if the harp is found in Lyanna's tomb, there's no evidence that Jon is her son, except for Howland Reed's word.


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Nice topic Cantuse, very nice I can see this going hand in hand with ButterBump's Thoren's Crown and a dragon egg to prove Jon's legitemcy, now the next question is is it only for the readers to know or also the whole of the realm.



Again, nice very nice.


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As I mentioned the harp alone proves nothing. Even the regalia mentioned earlier in this thread does not confirm Jon as far as I can tell. Often this where speculation begins about some other heretofore unseen evidence which may emerge. Regardless, the idea behind the harp was that it established the legitimacy of the reveal in the eyes of readers. By introducing whatever new evidence might be inside the tomb alongside the well-established harp, Martin would confirm this was something well-planned instead of a narrative shortcut. In short, the harp seems like a carefully placed Chekov's gun (can you describe any other pre-Rebellion artifacts?) and the only likely place I see it being fired is in Lyanna's tomb; paired with other evidence it reveals the foresight of Martin's writings. The cornerstone of the theory was not legitimizing Jon to the world (although I mention it), but perhaps only to himself or the readers, and I think the harp helps with that, especially if Howland vouches for Lyanna as his mother.

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