A Theory: The possibly game-changing secret beneath the Winterfell Crypts

[cantuse]

@Shireen, the theory covers this... because Lyanna's tomb is the perfect place to hide Targaryen relics from Robert.

If she asked to be buried with it, Ned might have easily agreed to that as a way of hiding everything once and for all. (hah!)

[Arya kiddin']

It's an interesting idea, but I wonder if we might not be more likely to find something like a signet if there is something in the tomb. That would be about the right size, the right material, and something that would be uniquely Rhaegar's.

A signet makes sense, seeing that Egg used a signet to identify himself as a Targaryen in the Dunk and Egg novellas.

[Shireen Shireen]

Per my theory about how since Lyanna doesn't have a sword across her lap (thereby pinning her spirit in the tomb), this would imply that her spirit is no longer there. Could this be the cause of Jon's dreams? More importantly, is this a subtle sign that her body might not even be in the tomb? Just some thoughts.

I think her body is there - my reasoning is The Ned wanted to bury her in Winterfell so that she wouldn't be buried by Robert. Robert would want to put her in a big monument or something in the South, and in the process of her body being prepared for burial by the 7 it would be evident that she had given birth. Your body doesn't go back to normal size straight away!

[cantuse]

@Shireen

Yeah, the first incarnation of my theory had a lot of speculation about Lyanna that eventually was just deemed a distraction from the core argument. But I heartedly agree that a lot of people don't realize Robert would have probably been a little too concerned with the nature of her passing. I often wonder how that conversation went between Robert and Ned.

Robert: "So how did she die?"

Ned: ....(how do I word this so it's not a lie and I conceal the truth?)

[Shireen Shireen]

@Shireen, the theory covers this... because Lyanna's tomb is the perfect place to hide Targaryen relics from Robert.

If she asked to be buried with it, Ned might have easily agreed to that as a way of hiding everything once and for all. (hah!)

OK, I'm obviously being extremely thick but can you break this down for me?! Why wouldn't he just leave the damn things at ToJ, or give them to Robert? Or give them to anyone? Why the hell does he need to hide them? Its not a secret that Rheagher lived at the Tower of Joy for a while.

Robert - "Where did you get this signet ring?"

Ned - "At the ToJ where Rheagher left it"

Robert - "Traitor, you're hiding his child!"

Ned - "What?"

Robert - "Oh yeah, that totally didn't follow."

[Sevumar]

@Sevumar, the idea behind the harp is that it's something we've been introduced to several times from several POVs.

A signet, a cloak, a crown, I like them all but they all appear like macguffins, created solely for the legitimization of a Targaryen and possible coming off as a cheap narrative idea from Martin.

@Anyone who asks, it's a small harp. Rhaegar picks it up, walks to a window and starts playing it in the HotU.

The harp does have some special meaning for Rhaegar, but I don't really see it being present at the Tower of Joy or in the crypt. It just seems to bulky of a thing for an exhausted Eddard Stark and Howland Reed to cart back to Starfall along with Lyanna's bones, Dawn, and Lord Dustin's horse. They already had a pretty full load, and then there's the problem of getting it back to Winterfell without anyone knowing. It just seems highly unlikely.

As a symbol, the harp is a decent one, but there a lot of logistical problems that would have to be overcome for it to have actually happened.

Even though Rhaegar is described as picking up the harp, it would still be a bulky and sizable instrument.

[Shireen Shireen]

@Shireen

Yeah, the first incarnation of my theory had a lot of speculation about Lyanna that eventually was just deemed a distraction from the core argument. But I heartedly agree that a lot of people don't realize Robert would have probably been a little too concerned with the nature of her passing. I often wonder how that conversation went between Robert and Ned.

Robert: "So how did she die?"

Ned: ....(how do I word this so it's not a lie and I conceal the truth?)

I agree I've always wondered how he pulled that off. I guess he said "of a fever" and perhaps implied that she had sucumbed due to being heartbroken and abused.

I think the real reason it worked is that everyone knew The Ned wouldn't lie. Except he did!

[yolkboy]

As a symbol, the harp is a decent one, but there a lot of logistical problems that would have to be overcome for it to have actually happened.

There are no logistical problems. You're making out this is like shifting a piano or something. Put it in a bag and strap onto a horse. I don't see any problem with this whatsoever, and can't fathom your angle at all. Rhaegar plays it standing up, it's a very small harp.

[cantuse]

@Shireen

LOL omg I'm laughing.

You have to somewhat carefully parse what I said about whether or not Ned would promise to tell Jon anything. I say he wouldn't. Lyanna did actually then ask Ned to promise to bury her and her/his affects in the crypts; which is something he could promise to do. It's a tough mental fit (aka why???), but as I argued earlier, Ned had no intentions of ever telling Jon (until his unplanned trip to prison)... this indicates that telling Jon was never a part of his promise, nor was *not* telling him since he suddenly feels like he wants to. I must admit to a personal bias, I have previously argued on Reddit that Ned didn't even lie at his confession, so I strongly believe that Ned wouldn't just decide to break a vow to Lyanna either way just because he was in jail.

In short, telling or not-telling Jon was never a part of Lyanna's promise, it was always on Ned. Therefore by exclusion, its more than likely (and ironic) that Lyanna was indeed eliciting a promise to be buried in the crypts.

@Sevumar

Google rhaegar's harp. You'll find many good FFG and other arts indicating it's size. It seems pretty portable to me.

[Sevumar]

OK, I'm obviously being extremely thick but can you break this down for me?! Why wouldn't he just leave the damn things at ToJ, or give them to Robert? Or give them to anyone? Why the hell does he need to hide them? Its not a secret that Rheagher lived at the Tower of Joy for a while.

I think we're given another valuable clue in Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon inside the crypts. She seems bitter over the fact that Eddard only brought back Lyanna's bones, while the rest of Ned's dead companions were buried in cairns made from the stones of the tower. This suggests that Eddard had precious little space and strength for extra items during his trip from the Tower of Joy to Starfall, not leaving much room for a large item of questionable value like a harp.

[Sevumar]

There are no logistical problems. You're making out this is like shifting a piano or something. Put it in a bag and strap onto a horse. I don't see any problem with this whatsoever, and can't fathom your angle at all.

As I said above, the conversation between Barbrey Dustin and Theon suggests that Eddard couldn't take much back with him on the trek to Starfall. He and Howland were probably wounded from the fight, physically and emotionally exhausted from what happened there, and traveling only with what's essential. They're already bringing with them the remains of Lyanna, the sword Dawn, and the horse of Lord Dustin. The fact that no other remains of the few men Lord Eddard most trusted in the world were taken with them is big deal. It tells us a lot about the decisions he had to make in the aftermath of the battle.

@Sevumar

Google rhaegar's harp. You'll find many good FFG and other arts indicating it's size. It seems pretty portable to me.

As I've pointed out, even a harp of that size is pretty large, heavy, and awkward to travel with if one has limited cargo capacity. See above.

[cantuse]

If Tom-o-Sevens and Marillion can walk around the riverlands or the high road with a harp I'm pretty sure a horse can handle one effortlessly.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think we're given another valuable clue in Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon inside the crypts. She seems bitter over the fact that Eddard only brought back Lyanna's bones, while the rest of Ned's dead companions were buried in cairns made from the stones of the tower. This suggests that Eddard had precious little space and strength for extra items during his trip from the Tower of Joy to Starfall, not leaving much room for a large item of questionable value like a harp.

Don't Tom O'Sevens and Marillion carry harps with them when they travel?

ETA: :ninja: 'd by cantuse.

[cantuse]

@J. Stargaryen Collective Subconscious!

[Shireen Shireen]

@Shireen

LOL omg I'm laughing.

You have to somewhat carefully parse what I said about whether or not Ned would promise to tell Jon anything. I say he wouldn't. Lyanna did actually then ask Ned to promise to bury her and her/his affects in the crypts; which is something he could promise to do. It's a tough mental fit (aka why???), but as I argued earlier, Ned had no intentions of ever telling Jon (until his unplanned trip to prison)... this indicates that telling Jon was never a part of his promise, nor was *not* telling him since he suddenly feels like he wants to. I must admit to a personal bias, I have previously argued on Reddit that Ned didn't even lie at his confession, so I strongly believe that Ned wouldn't just decide to break a vow to Lyanna either way just because he was in jail.

In short, telling or not-telling Jon was never a part of Lyanna's promise, it was always on Ned. Therefore by exclusion, its more than likely (and ironic) that Lyanna was indeed eliciting a promise to be buried in the crypts.

@Sevumar

Google rhaegar's harp. You'll find many good FFG and other arts indicating it's size. It seems pretty portable to me.

Ahhhhh! Sorry, finally with you. Thanks for your patience.

So the promise in this case is: "Bury me in Winterfell with Rheaghar's possessions, [so that one day when my son Jon looks for his true father he and others will know the truth]."

I get it. Personally I still believe the promise is "raise Jon as your own son, even if it means a few white lies you old stick in the mud" but that's just me.

[cantuse]

You got it. I know that sounds ridiculous, but then again it's *awfully coincidental* that there some ominous force that continually drives Jon to dream about the crypts, and in particular to something other than the kings with their swords across their laps (see my excerpt on page 2 of this thread).

[Sevumar]

If Tom-o-Sevens and Marillion can walk around the riverlands or the high road with a harp I'm pretty sure a horse can handle one effortlessly.

A minstrel traveling with a harp is very different from the situation from what Eddard would have been facing. A harp would be a singer's livelihood, his most important possession, while Rhaegar's harp would be pretty low on the list of valuable things in Eddard's charge following the Tower of Joy. There's also the matter of how to hide it and transport it without raising questions.

[Mithras]

It would be much cooler if the crown of Torhen Stark was also put there.

[J. Stargaryen]

A minstrel traveling with a harp is very different from the situation from what Eddard would have been facing. A harp would be a singer's livelihood, his most important possession, while Rhaegar's harp would be pretty low on the list of valuable things in Eddard's charge following the Tower of Joy. There's also the matter of how to hide it and transport it without raising questions.

Not if he promised Lyanna he would bury it with her.

[DreamSongs]

Cantuse.....

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Superbly put together!