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Tyrion1991

Jon and Val an item in WoW?

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So does he then forget about Ygritte?

She was supposed to be his great love, or at least that's what he makes it out to be

Not forget but move on? Shes dead. Hes a teenager and is capable of loving another. People can love more than 1 person throughout their life.

Ygritte was his first love and he lost his virginity to her. She will be special to him but its stupid if he never falls in love again (as long as his vows are broken)

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Was Ygritte really Jons love tho? Or was she Jons first girlfriend? I've had a few girlfriends, I'd say I've been in love once but I hope that compared to the woman I marry it will not even seem like love.


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Well it's more that he makes the big point out of the relationship, at one point saying that his "kissing days are done" when he was defending the wall from Mance's first rush on the wall.



He seems to put Ygritte on that pedestal and it seems out of character for him to break away from her memory that easily


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Well it's more that he makes the big point out of the relationship, at one point saying that his "kissing days are done" when he was defending the wall from Mance's first rush on the wall.

He seems to put Ygritte on that pedestal and it seems out of character for him to break away from her memory that easily

Ya he does I'm just arguing that with nothing to compare it to your first relationship always seems very extreme. The first girl I dated in high school seemed awesome at the time, I was really heartbroken at the time... but now it seems like a trivial relationship compared to a real one. Jon and Ygritte were of an age and single, I really didn't get the impression that Jon "fell in love" with her until after he had sex with her. Everyone, no matter whether they deny it or not, everyone gets at least some level of attachment with sex, if your body releases hormones properly that is, I really think Jon became attached, and cared about Ygritte a lot, but I do not think she was the love of his life.

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By the end of the battle with the Others, there may be no Wall to defend. Also keep in mind that Jon went to the Wall under false pretenses. He felt a sense of never belonging due to Cat and the fact he was a bastard. He has been kept ignorant of his true heritage. He never would have chosen the Watch otherwise.

Damn Ned for never trusting him enough to tell him.

That's a great point if Ned hadn't lied and not told jon about his heritage he never would have said the words. We have even seen our honorable ned Stark break is vows. He was sworn to tell Robert about Joff and Cersi yet he holds his tongue because he sees it as a mercy. It would be the same with Jon leaving the watch. It's a mercy. He is sworn to the realm. The watch emcampasses the realm. It could ultimately be Jon and a council of other members of the watch, north and wildlings with Jon governing all of them. He's still attached to the watch but he's also serving the realms of men as a whole. By taking charge of the Wildlings and the Northmen. Making it important that he have an heir. Plus I'm not even sure that Val is really all wildling. That's food for thought for another time children. The north will demand no less. Now lets look at the avalible high born women that are left in the north.

There is Lady Maege Mormont but as she's old and past child bearing years she's out.

She has 4 other daughters. There's the she bear but as she's ugly and I wouldn't want to wish that fate on Jon or his dick

Then there are the younger daughter. Well the second youngest would be exceptable so would the one older that her. They are of an ancient line. They are closer in age with jon and they might be even half way decently looking

Then there is the 32 yr old maid of some noble house in the north. Then there are the glovers the girls are too young, then there is Manderly's granddaughters. They might make a good match. Seeing as Manderly has war ships if he want's Manderly's help he could marry the older girl. Manderly is ambitious so he would want to make his family member queen. There are also the three daughters of the Red Beards they are wildling girls.So there are jon's options pick one

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By the end of the battle with the Others, there may be no Wall to defend. Also keep in mind that Jon went to the Wall under false pretenses. He felt a sense of never belonging due to Cat and the fact he was a bastard. He has been kept ignorant of his true heritage. He never would have chosen the Watch otherwise.

Damn Ned for never trusting him enough to tell him.

But we're talking about TWOW here. Also, I don't think the fact he didn't know who his parents were means he can forget his vows and start doing whatever he wants.

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But we're talking about TWOW here. Also, I don't think the fact he didn't know who his parents were means he can forget his vows and start doing whatever he wants.

Well, like pretty much anything, there are a ton of factors to consider. Whether or not Jon can set aside his oaths depends wholly on himself and the perception of society around him. Would anyone consider his hidden identity reason enough to no longer be bound to the Watch? Will the Watch even exist? What if his vows are specifically dissolved by Bloodraven or Bran, who are the speakers for the old gods? I think there's a lot of angles and aspects to consider. Mostly, I think it's a question of whether anyone would benefit from him setting aside his vows.

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Well, like pretty much anything, there are a ton of factors to consider. Whether or not Jon can set aside his oaths depends wholly on himself and the perception of society around him. Would anyone consider his hidden identity reason enough to no longer be bound to the Watch? Will the Watch even exist? What if his vows are specifically dissolved by Bloodraven or Bran, who are the speakers for the old gods? I think there's a lot of angles and aspects to consider. Mostly, I think it's a question of whether anyone would benefit from him setting aside his vows.

The only acceptable (IMO) situation where Jon sets his vows aside is if the Wall falls down and the Watch ceases to exists. As long as the Watch is still there, though, I think he should stay true to it.

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The only acceptable (IMO) situation where Jon sets his vows aside is if the Wall falls down and the Watch ceases to exists. As long as the Watch is still there, though, I think he should stay true to it.

I 100% agree and I think that ultimately Jon would agree, he will stay true to his vows

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The only acceptable (IMO) situation where Jon sets his vows aside is if the Wall falls down and the Watch ceases to exists. As long as the Watch is still there, though, I think he should stay true to it.

Which is why I think we'll see Jon set aside his vows under more ambiguous circumstances. I would rather see that, actually, because I think making a conscious decision to break his vows for a greater good (or what he sees as a greater good) of his own volition is much more interesting than the scenario where he sets aside his vows because the Watch no longer exists. A big part of Jon's character arc has been recognizing that doing what needs to be done trumps everything else, including his personal honor, reputation, and vows. I'd like to see that play out fully.

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Where does everyone fall on the question of whether Jon was breaking his vows planning to march South on Ramsay Snow? It would seem he was already planning on breaking his vows, I could see him relenting to hold the wall when the Others approach it, but that is due to proximity and him recovering from multiple stab wounds from his "sworn brothers", and subordinates.



Jon doesn't really need Val for support from the Wildlings, and he was already preoccupied before getting shanked.


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Jon conservatively keeping his vows while playing the game (either alive or undead) is like Arya playing the role of the sweet and innocent princess. It ain't gonna happen and frankly, has already been overcome by events.



Let the dragon bastard live, I say!


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Where does everyone fall on the question of whether Jon was breaking his vows planning to march South on Ramsay Snow? It would seem he was already planning on breaking his vows, I could see him relenting to hold the wall when the Others approach it, but that is due to proximity and him recovering from multiple stab wounds from his "sworn brothers", and subordinates.

Jon doesn't really need Val for support from the Wildlings, and he was already preoccupied before getting shanked.

It's hard to say for me. Ramsay demanded things from Jon that he didn't even have on threat of marching on Castle Black and killing everyone. Since castle black is not easily defended from the south it makes sense to ambush him on his way north and defend the nights watch along with the wall. Marching all the way to Winterfell is another matter I think.

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He seems to put Ygritte on that pedestal and it seems out of character for him to break away from her memory that easily

You're putting pussy on a pedestal, Jon.

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Assuming he is AA or TPWWP: I imagine the stabbing being an event that gets Jon away from the NW imediately. He is going to have to figure out what to do with his body during the "second life," but once he does, that is when either his parentage is revealed to him or the Robbs will is revealed to him. He then start fullfilling the prophesy, knowing who he is meant to be (although no one esle knows). The story continues and he fights the others/white walkers. In the end, assuming he wins this war and doesnt die, at least some of the population will realize Ned's bastard saved the realm. Then bam! He shows Robb's will or the proof that he is a true born targ. At that point, if he wants to be LC of the NW, he can choose so. If he wants to be KITN or King, he can choose so. If he falls in love with Val during the process (which they've done some good forshadowing that this might happen), then i guess she could become queen in the north or queen.



Val's been referred to as regal by jon. As queen, she'd certainly looks the part. :drool:


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Which is why I think we'll see Jon set aside his vows under more ambiguous circumstances. I would rather see that, actually, because I think making a conscious decision to break his vows for a greater good (or what he sees as a greater good) of his own volition is much more interesting than the scenario where he sets aside his vows because the Watch no longer exists. A big part of Jon's character arc has been recognizing that doing what needs to be done trumps everything else, including his personal honor, reputation, and vows. I'd like to see that play out fully.

Well said.

It's hard to say for me. Ramsay demanded things from Jon that he didn't even have on threat of marching on Castle Black and killing everyone. Since castle black is not easily defended from the south it makes sense to ambush him on his way north and defend the nights watch along with the wall. Marching all the way to Winterfell is another matter I think.

I wonder what standard operating procedure would be for the NW when the LC's life is threatened by some lord to the south .

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I'm a little mixed on whether Martin will go this route or not. I do think that in TWOW, we will see some kind of break between Jon and the Watch that's lasting. Whether that's a technical breaking of his vows, a personal choice to discard his identity as Lord Commander Snow, or the destruction of the Watch itself, I'm still mixed on.

I think it will be simpler than that. When Stannis made an offer to legitimize him and give him Winterfell, he felt really tempted to accept. He pondered about his vows, but a King has power to release him from them. I think one of the main reasons why Jon rejected Stannis' offer was his demand to forsake the old gods and burn WF's weirwood tree.

But maybe Jon will fanally be moved to accept a legitimation if that's in Robb's will. I think once Jon recovers from those minor wounds of the Ides of Marsh he might realise several things:

1) In his heart, his family still comes first, that's why he took great risks to save "Arya".

2) His main concern is to save the kingdom from the Others, and that's what keeping his oaths is all about.

3) As the King in the North, he will have more power to fight the others than as the Lord Commander of a fractured Nightswatch.

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I think it will be simpler than that. When Stannis made an offer to legitimize him and give him Winterfell, he felt really tempted to accept. He pondered about his vows, but a King has power to release him from them. I think one of the main reasons why Jon rejected Stannis' offer was his demand to forsake the old gods and burn WF's weirwood tree.

But maybe Jon will fanally be moved to accept a legitimation if that's in Robb's will. I think once Jon recovers from those minor wounds of the Ides of Marsh he might realise several things:

1) In his heart, his family still comes first, that's why he took great risks to save "Arya".

2) His main concern is to save the kingdom from the Others, and that's what keeping his oaths is all about.

3) As the King in the North, he will have more power to fight the others than as the Lord Commander of a fractured Nightswatch.

I think there's a chance of what you're proposing coming to pass, yep. Jon's arc does have a number of allusions to kingship in it. I've debated this before, internally mind you, because Rickon is a factor here and there's a certain truth to the idea that Jon is not the sort of man to usurp his brother's inheritance, even on a technicality. On the other hand, Rickon won't be capable of ruling in his own right (and making heirs, which is equally important) for another decade. So there's wiggle room and that's certainly a path that Martin could have him tread.

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