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Tyrion1991

Jon and Val an item in WoW?

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That's a great point if Ned hadn't lied and not told jon about his heritage he never would have said the words.

You're forgetting why Ned concealed Jon's identity in the first place: to save his life and honor his sister's dying wish. The Targaryen family was nearly exterminated during Robert's Rebellion, and its remnants were still hunted years later. Ned had every reason to keep quiet.

Besides, how would Jon's knowledge of his heritage have changed his situation? He would still have to be bastard to the rest of the realm, even among his own family. The tension with Catelyn still would've been there. Nothing would have changed for him. How would knowing he was half-Targaryen make life as a bastard any less unbearable?

Also, in addition to wanting to escape, Jon genuinely believed in the Night's Watch.

Ned probably should've told him. I'm sure he would've in time. Ned, like all of us, did not know when the "last time" would be and when it would be "too late." Still, telling him wouldn't have changed anything.

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I'm thinking your right they would have continued to portray him as Ned's bastard, however as Targs believe in polygamy, he would in fact be the rightful heir to the Targ dynasty. But if The Ned would have told Jon the truth before he left for Kings Lamding, I don't think Jon would have joined the NW.

Jon truly believed in the NW, b/c he actually thought he was a bastard and it was the only way for him to gain honor.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I would imagine Jon would have stayed in WF and went south with Rob to win his own glory. Chances are he would have died at the Red Wedding or became a outlaw on the run, if Ned would have told him.

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I'm thinking your right they would have continued to portray him as Ned's bastard, however as Targs believe in polygamy, he would in fact be the rightful heir to the Targ dynasty. But if The Ned would have told Jon the truth before he left for Kings Lamding, I don't think Jon would have joined the NW.

Jon truly believed in the NW, b/c he actually thought he was a bastard and it was the only way for him to gain honor.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I would imagine Jon would have stayed in WF and went south with Rob to win his own glory. Chances are he would have died at the Red Wedding or became a outlaw on the run, if Ned would have told him.

I agree for the most part, but I think ultimately Jon would have sought out Dany in Essos in an attempt to aid Rob.

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Well, it's not a theorie, it's an opinion, in my opinion he should honor his vows till he is really dead, like dead dead, as in not coming back, never. Other people on the board feel very different, and so I'm thinking this will also be the case in the books.

There will be three camps:

1 Those who believe what the reader will know as the truth- Jon's ressurection or whatever- and consider him freed from his vows.

2 Those who also believe the above and consider Jon still bound to his vows.

3 Those who don't believe a thing about the weird tale. Tey'll just assume Jon was almost dead but never stoped living, and consider him still bound to his vows.

I think the third group will be the biggest by far. If someone came to me with this kind of story 'yeah I swore this vow, but whatever, I died and was brought back to live so I'm not longer bound to hold it', I would be like, yeah sure, you oathbreaking bastard.

I like this way of thinking a lot.

But I must admit that Jon's internal reasoning and even the trees talking to him (which are now Bran, and in a sense they have always been) could be more forgiveful on this. I will not in any case.

You killed Ygrtte! I will somehow understand if you stay as celibate as Saint Francis for the rest of your next 15 reincarnations. Maybe.

EDIT: guess it? I found a typo here too.

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Jon was betrayed by the Watch, it boggles my mind to think that anyone would expect him to stick around. What about the vows they broke to him, the vow of brotherhood, loyalty and whatnot. I know finding a flimsy way to 'escape' his vows is shady but in my opinion it's totally justified. I doubt anybody in Westeros has a problem with Jon leaving the watch under those circumstances unless they're attempting to use it as an excuse to go after Jon.



As far as Val is concerned, he should go for it, because she may be giving him a hard time but Ygritte did the exact same thing and yet she followed him around to show everyone that she was his. It didn't actually get through Jon's thick head until she told him that he stole her. Val isn't Ygritte but I think it's pretty obvious she's waiting for him to make some sort of move.


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Jon and Val. Ugh. The only way that pairing could be more annoying is if GRRM made them into vampires that sparkle.


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Jon was betrayed by the Watch, it boggles my mind to think that anyone would expect him to stick around. What about the vows they broke to him, the vow of brotherhood, loyalty and whatnot. I know finding a flimsy way to 'escape' his vows is shady but in my opinion it's totally justified. I doubt anybody in Westeros has a problem with Jon leaving the watch under those circumstances unless they're attempting to use it as an excuse to go after Jon.

As far as Val is concerned, he should go for it, because she may be giving him a hard time but Ygritte did the exact same thing and yet she followed him around to show everyone that she was his. It didn't actually get through Jon's thick head until she told him that he stole her. Val isn't Ygritte but I think it's pretty obvious she's waiting for him to make some sort of move.

Agree...

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For some reason, I fail to see how keeping stupid vows designed to make you miserable is hailed as a virtue.


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Dany and Jon are not going to get together. I have another interesting theory about Dany and those dragons. Yet this isn't the time or the place. Jon and Val Aemon told jon that he would find little joy in his command, maybe Val is suppose to be that joy. He's going to need heirs. Has anyone thought about the fact that JOn is 17 when his's killed on the wall. If winter lasts about ten years then by the time the threat of the others is remove he will be 27 the same age that Aegon the conquer flew to westeros to conquer.


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You're forgetting why Ned concealed Jon's identity in the first place: to save his life and honor his sister's dying wish. The Targaryen family was nearly exterminated during Robert's Rebellion, and its remnants were still hunted years later. Ned had every reason to keep quiet.

Besides, how would Jon's knowledge of his heritage have changed his situation? He would still have to be bastard to the rest of the realm, even among his own family. The tension with Catelyn still would've been there. Nothing would have changed for him. How would knowing he was half-Targaryen make life as a bastard any less unbearable?

Also, in addition to wanting to escape, Jon genuinely believed in the Night's Watch.

Ned probably should've told him. I'm sure he would've in time. Ned, like all of us, did not know when the "last time" would be and when it would be "too late." Still, telling him wouldn't have changed anything.

first the situation with Cat would have been totally different if she had known that he wasn't ned's bastard but the fallen princes bastard. The whole realm knows what rheagar did to lyanna stark. The whole realm knows Ned to be an honorable man. If he had gone before the realm and proclaimed Jon as Rhegar's heir who would have stepped forward and named him liar? no one. How can they everyone knows the story. Now some in the realm would be tempted to turn away from Jon because he's a bastard and definitely born out of lust and deceit. So some would be weary of him anyway.

Then there is the fact that the situation would have been different. Robert loved Ned and he loved Lyanna even though Jon is dragonspawn I just can't see him hurting Jon. It wasn't Roberts work that killed the other children. The person that Ned truly must fear would be Tywin. He's the true killer of the children, I can't see Robert of having the stomach to kill Jon. Yes he sent his brother to Dragonstone to get the remaining prince and princess but I don't think it was to harm them. The whole realm already sees him as an usurper and if had the blood of murder children on his hands... you can fill in the blanks

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first the situation with Cat would have been totally different if she had known that he wasn't ned's bastard but the fallen princes bastard. The whole realm knows what rheagar did to lyanna stark. The whole realm knows Ned to be an honorable man. If he had gone before the realm and proclaimed Jon as Rhegar's heir who would have stepped forward and named him liar? no one. How can they everyone knows the story. Now some in the realm would be tempted to turn away from Jon because he's a bastard and definitely born out of lust and deceit. So some would be weary of him anyway.

Then there is the fact that the situation would have been different. Robert loved Ned and he loved Lyanna even though Jon is dragonspawn I just can't see him hurting Jon. It wasn't Roberts work that killed the other children. The person that Ned truly must fear would be Tywin. He's the true killer of the children, I can't see Robert of having the stomach to kill Jon. Yes he sent his brother to Dragonstone to get the remaining prince and princess but I don't think it was to harm them. The whole realm already sees him as an usurper and if had the blood of murder children on his hands... you can fill in the blanks

We know Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, well we know without proof, there was no lust and deceit. That is to say that he was born of love not lust. Secondly, Robert swore to kill every last dragon, he tried to kill Danaerys, we know this for a fact, and whats more, Ned who knew Robert best thought he would kill Jon if he knew. I think your way off base here, the books tell a different tale than what you just told.

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Yeah but Jon is still Ned's nephew at this time Robert hasn't had 16 years to stew over Lyanna's death, the grief would have been fresh leaving Robert raw and that fact that Ned helped him with the bloody crown do you really think that he would harm Ned and his I doubt ir. It only that was see what 16 years of a much slower death that is killing Robert. Then you are forgetting that Tywin murdered those children for no other reason than because they weren't cersi's and it was just one more debt Tywin was paying back. Like all good lions he would have repaid Aerys by killing his heirs as his has deprived his of his lawful heir and rejected his golden daughter.



Plus for all we know ned had the intention of telling Robert about Jon when he came to KL to tell him of Lyanna's death. Only when he told him he flew into a Robert rage and made the vow then to kill all dragonspawn he could get his hands on. Then there is this the order to kill the children. I seriously doubt that Robert would have had to stomach to kill a child or 2 and a babe still at the breast. Oh come on now what type of monster do you think Robert is . Also his actions regarding Dany is coming from a place of fear and hatred. Yet I think that if Lyanna had been returned to Robert this hatred would have abatted after a while. Lyanna is the one that got a way literaly. If he had just fucked her and been done with it he wouldn't have been holding onto that grudge like that. Just my thougths.


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Seeing as how according to the histories the wildlings are "sacrifices" to the others, I don't see any marriage being beneficial... Jon screwed the pooch letting them over, and the realm screwed up by letting all these other faiths come and screw up the old ways (as in the Pact)

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Jon and Val. Ugh. The only way that pairing could be more annoying is if GRRM made them into vampires that sparkle.

This. Knowing GRRM's flair for memorable sex descriptions, I brace myself for this epic romance.

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Getting Val for Jon would be the same as Ygritte. Point is that nothing very new or shocking for the books. Usually when people make up their mind in GOT they dont change their opinion. Jon will only get the girl after the war with the wights is won


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Can Jon even be considered an heir to Winterfell? Even if he is legitimised by Robb, he is not Ned's son, and Lyanna's children don't have any claim on Winterfell as long as Rickon and Bran are still around. Just IMO!


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Yep. As far as anyone involved in making the Winterfell heir decision is concerned Bran and Rickon are both dead. Jon's claim is good because Robb made it good. He won't let it come to a head but his claim is valid. Assuming Robb freed him from his vows, the assassination attempt, and the possible destruction of the wall he'd be free to rule Winterfell. We know he probably won't but its a possibility.

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Jon's claim is good only if the King that made him a Stark was a King. Jon can only claim of Robb's will if he claims King of the North. Legitimizing Robb's kingdom. If he claims warden of the North or lord of Winterfell than Robb wasn't a king. That would mean that he needs a different king/queen to legitimize him.


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